What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Confession: Guilty feelings of a pre-purchase

dan

Well Known Member
Today I helped a guy do a pre-purchase inspection on an RV-7 that he was looking to buy. I left the experience having mixed feelings, but mostly feeling guilty.

There I was, trying to help this potential buyer determine if the plane was worth the asking price. My "role" was to be critical, to find a showstopper or at a minimum help the buyer ensure that he was buying a SAFE airplane. I can do that -- I can be critical and still be objective. But what it translated into was that all afternoon, I was going over this very nice guy's work (the builder) with a fine-toothed comb.

Long story short, I just feel odd now. I know I did the buyer a service and exposed some key items that need attention, but to pick over another guy's pride and joy...ugh...it leaves me feeling uneasy.
 
It becomes easier when you become employed by the buyer, but it still is an odd feeling. I've done a few, and some people are completely cool about it, but others have tried to intimidate me or later question some of my comments. Prebuys can be really wierd, i'll give you that.
 
I would not feel wierd about it as long as you were being objective. Exposing serious safety or maintenance problems is what you are set out to do and the seller/builder has to realize and accept that. If you are merely criticising methods, things that are inconsequential, and differences of opinion without a sound basis, then I would think guilt could be in order. But spotting things that are clearly poor workmanship, defective, wearing out, or needing some form of attention is a service to both the buyer and the seller.

I sold an airplane that I built, so I know what it is like to have your blood sweat and tears scrutinized. My plane was an EAA award winner and it was clearly in fine form, so there was little criticisism. Be objective and fair to both the buyer and the seller and don't cast aspersions that are unfounded or unwarranted. That could lead to your buyer missing out on a good airplane, too.

JMHO,

Roberta
 
One man's treasure...

Not everyone is as talented as you, Dan. If you told me my work was junk, I'd never want to fly it.

I'd scrap it and start over.

I'm sure it's the same with this builder.
 
Mr. Mikey said:
One man's treasure...

Not everyone is as talented as you, Dan. If you told me my work was junk, I'd never want to fly it.

I'd scrap it and start over.

I'm sure it's the same with this builder.

Mr. Mikey, I'm kinda offended. I'm not criticizing the guy's work, just trying to make sure it's safe. Leaking fuel tanks, loose stop nuts on pushrods, wires chafing on controls, control surfaces not smoothly hitting the stops. These are items that I feel compelled to point out. It's not about treasure vs. trash. But thanks for helping me not feel as guilty toward builders like you.
 
dan said:
Leaking fuel tanks, loose stop nuts on pushrods, wires chafing on controls, control surfaces not smoothly hitting the stops.

Dan,

These items aren't minor cosmetic things like orange-peeled paint or a smilie. This kind of stuff can bring a plane down. You done good.
 
dan said:
Mr. Mikey, I'm kinda offended. I'm not criticizing the guy's work, just trying to make sure it's safe. Leaking fuel tanks, loose stop nuts on pushrods, wires chafing on controls, control surfaces not smoothly hitting the stops. These are items that I feel compelled to point out. It's not about treasure vs. trash. But thanks for helping me not feel as guilty toward builders like you.

Sorry, Dan. No offense intended.

I was trying to imply exactly what you said here - No need to feel guilty for what you see that could be improved. Indeed, your pointing out some flaws that a builder missed is actually a big favor for all parties involved.

What I meant by the "treasure and trash" comparison is that another point of view can make all the difference. Ok, bad example. I meant no offense to anyone and I apologize.
 
dan said:
Leaking fuel tanks, loose stop nuts on pushrods, wires chafing on controls, control surfaces not smoothly hitting the stops.

Leaking fuel tanks? Come on, Dan...stop picking nits. It's not like the guy used the wrong kind of primer, or something like that :)

In my line of work, I have to do this sort of thing all the time...looking at someone's concept that they've slaved over and then tearing it to shreads with a few swipes of the mighty red pen. And I'm on the wrong end of the pen sometimes too. In the end, though, it's always for the best and you should never feel bad about being honest. The laws of physics don't change because a builder wills it to be so, and all you're doing is reporting what you see.

The way I see it, you did BOTH of these pilots a service. The fact that one of them may not be so appreciative is beside the point. I for one would be more than happy to have you fly up to Lancaster and give MY stack of airplane parts a FREE inspection anytime you'd like.
 
oh oh, here we go. Before this degenerates to a flame war, anyone listen to Sean Tucker's account of his bailout. Did it make you want to examine the condition of the rod end bearings on your plane. Would you want someone to point it out to you before you end up needing to bail out, without a parachute?

I'll take me an overly-thorough inspection before a casual one anyday. If there's something wrong with my construction or with the condition of the plane, I need to know about it and if it hurts my feelings, that's a small price to pay.

I don't think it's a mine-is-bigger thing. I think 99% of us have built the same number of RVs in our lifetimes - one.
 
Mr. Mikey said:
What I meant by the "treasure and trash" comparison is that another point of view can make all the difference. Ok, bad example. I meant no offense to anyone and I apologize.

Thanks. My bad...misinterpreted what you were saying. Gotta love the internet, people's tone is always perfectly clear...not! :rolleyes:
 
"Judge not lest ye be judged"

We are taught this early on. Yet, many roles we play in life (teacher, manager, inspector, etc.) require us to judge others. The best we can do is to do our best to be objective and accurate. Oh, and grow a thick skin. As noted above, it is inevitable that the judge will be judged (especially when he/she renders an unpopular verdict).
 
Feelings

Being a military aviator, I've had gotten used to criticism. Being able to take and hand out constructive criticism is the basis of the way we operate. I've sat through many debriefs where I have wanted to shoot myself because I messed up so bad...but on the other hand, I've debriefed people to the point where they probably wanted to shoot themselves. The only reason we do it is to ensure that they don't go out and kill themselves or someone else (unless it's on purpose). It's what makes us professionals.

How does this apply to our hobby here? Even though we are amatuer builders (okay, I'm not one yet, but soon), we should undertake this hobby as if it is our profession, since it really does come down to a life or death matter. I wouldn't care so much if my girlfriend lied to me and said I had a six pack rather than beer gut, but I would be offended if a friend didn't tell me something that was unsafe or something I could do to make it safer. Gotta check the ego at the door!
 
You where doing your job

I remember a guy on the field was looking to buy a RV-4, and the seller of a potential plane he was looking at flew up to our field to show the plane. The airport had about about 10 plus RV-4's at the time, not to mention a bunch of RV-6's and a few RV-3's.

Well after their demo flight they parked near the restaurant and a bunch or RV'ers at the coffee shop saw it, went over (descended or swarmed) to do an impromptu "inspection". After about 20 rapid fire questions about the engine and airframe from the peanut gallery, the price was no longer firm and had dropped; He was willing to take an offer. I think he would have taken at least $6,000 grand less.

The buyer did not know what to ask. So all is fair in war and buying planes. I felt a little sorry for the seller, because it was 10 to 1, but there is no substitute for unbiased third or 4th or 10th party to look it over.

George
 
weighing in with my $.02

First off, I'm not qualified to comment personally, having never inspected a plane for anyone, nor have I completed a plane that has passed inspection. My 8A is nearly complete, so I'm prepping to lose my virginity here, shortly.

However, my dad was a USAF A&P for a gazillion years, spent time working on Connie's, Goonie Birds, C130's, and KC-97 tankers. He never had a safety signicant failure in any of his aircraft, through fifteen years of peacetime and five years of wartime tours. He'd write everything up, and leave nothing out. Not even a loose rivet excaped his watchful eye. I've observed him do the same thing buying a used car. As maintenance chief, those planes didn't get off the ground unless he gave the OK.

I understand his maintenance crews hated him in a begrudging sort of way, because he made them work. However, the aircrews knew that when the Sarge gave the OK, they knew the aircraft was airworthy, and they often requested that he give their birds the once over, even after someone else gave the green light.

Attitude wise, his first responsibility was to the aircrew. In my view, if I were doing an inspection, I wouldn't give a damn about who's feelings might be hurt. My first responsibility is to inspect the aircraft, and give an honest and fair evaluation. :)
 
Personally, as a seller, I would have a local DAR do an inspection before offering
the plane for sale, but that's just me. That way I feel confident that the plane
is up to FAA standards. Why find out about questionable items before the
pre-sale inspection? That's not going to make you look very good.

When I sold my last airplane (certified) I made sure it had just come out of annual. I was
therefore able to hold my price, and I was awarded with the prompt sale. It's
a little bit more ambiguous with experimentals.

You shouldn't feel guilty or feel anything actually. He is asking You to make
sure that an airplane is airworthy to Your standards. He could have hired
anybody to do the job. The fact that he picked you, an intensely nit-picky,
see-and-observe every item person, with prior experience, is in fact, a blessing
for him, and a statement about your intensity, drive and attention to details.

You done good.

From experience, I can say that your visits during my build process produced
items that needed repair, items which may have not been found by others,
and obviously not found by me, the builder.

Thank you for that, continue on with your excellent attention to detail, it
really is admired by all. Now lets go flying.
 
Back
Top