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Importance of good W/B and density alt.

Thats hard to watch but the exact thing that will make you think twice, or 3 times!
 
Notice how the pilot overflew several meadows suitable for an emergency landing before hitting the trees. It is very hard to accept situations like this. Imagine how much harder it is if you're in an airplane that you spent years of your life building.
Just something to think about...
 
Wow.

When the final NTSB report comes out I'm guessing this will become one that is used as case study in groundschool classrooms, since it was so well documented.

Glad all lived.....and I'll not speculate about the cause....waiting on the final report
 
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density altitude

I love the old Stinsons but they are not stellar performers even at or near seal level with high density altitude and a heavy load.
In the early 60's I was at Greenwood Lake NJ. There were three takeoff accidents in just a few minutes, departures after an airshow. The first two were no injury. The third, a Stinson, flew into the base of trees beyond the end of the runway. The two people in back were ejected and survived. The two in front were killed. 90 degree plus temps, probably at or over gross. A significant hill at the end of the runway. A friend in a very marginal antique turned before the end of the runway, avoided the hill, and had no problem. Elevation is 790'. The runway was moved a few years later. The hill is no longer a factor.
 
Seriously scared

I would've been seriously scared with that take off run, let alone the lack ustre climbout.

I remember a rule of thumb I was taught in that 'if you don't have 80% take off speed at 40% of runway used, abort'.

Why did a commercial pilot push it?
 
Looks like the field elevation was 6,370 feet and the high for the day was 82. That would give you a density altitude of around 9-9300ft. Yikes. What part of that flight seemed like a good idea?
 
lots to observe here...

All have commented on various 'lessons' that can be taken away from this flights unfortunate end.
What I see is a cabin, like many of ours, littered with sharp, mobile things that beat the **** out of us in a crash.... or even turbulence upset.
The pilot seems to have been beaten severely by his yoke mounted 3 lb. iBludgeon, perhaps the plastic visors, side window glass, water bottles etc.

really makes me want to take a hard look at the interior and my 'accessories' the next time I preflight!
 
I agree with dr and then some

It should not only be used in ground school classes but we would be doing our experienced pilot friends and associates a favor by emailing the link to each of them. If looking at the pilot on the ground bleading profusely doesn't burn a hole into your memory banks you aren't human.
 
Looks like the field elevation was 6,370 feet and the high for the day was 82. That would give you a density altitude of around 9-9300ft. Yikes. What part of that flight seemed like a good idea?
Well... density altitude of 9k feet isn't inherently a problem if the airplane can perform there... I've had the longest take off run of my life from BZN with ambient temps about 95F (DA about 8000), but we were still off in about 1600 feet, climbing about 650 fpm in the CT (always remember to reset the ground-adjust prop when going from sea level to the mountains!).

So, it depends on the airplane. Looks like this one was not up to the task given to it. Like taking off without enough fuel in the tanks, the lack of performance should not have been a surprise to the PIC.

TODR
 
And another thought

I must admit I didn't have the sound up because my wife was watching a film, but why did the guy feel the need to film the injured afterward, instead of helping them?

Is this the mordern mentality? The '15 minutes of fame' is more important then helping the injured?

I might have missed something as I said the sound was turned off.

And the second video linked that person was cleary scared at the end of the run, just watch the elevators.

Doesn't anyone do a W&B any more???????? Check TORA's ? TODA's? Factor in Grass and slopes? and DA's

Or, are these instances so rare that for the most part, poeple don't here about them?
 
Hope they all have a speedy recovery.

Pause at 00:14. Just another link in the chain, but keep it to yourself or we'll be closed. A very good video for all of us to learn from. Thanks for posting.

I'll definitely be taking some mountain training before hauling the family out West, even with a -540.
 
That was probably the difference between a 25 fpm rate of climb and 100+ fpm. Just enough to have possibly kept them out of the trees.

No doubt. As Kyle knows, I have a 108-1 Stinson (150hp). I've only flown it twice with three people. Once it was nice and cool, and one of the people was wee. No issues. Another time was with 3 real people (3.5 with me :) ) at sea level with almost full fuel. We were perhaps 50lb undr gross on a ~80 degree day. I'd have no problem operating the airplane like that but ONLY on COOL days near sea level on long paved runways. The climb performance was very poor, and the airplane feels like it wants to be on the ground.

I can't fathom attempting one takeoff, having the airplane settle down then trying it again....especially at ~10k ft DA with the mixture full rich in an already arguably under powered airplane.

With that big of a pilot, two other guys, all that junk and what I suspect was a fair amount of fuel (since they were in the bush), there's no way they weren't nearly at gross. Glad the PIC is OK, but he needs to go to ground school again and learn about performance.
 
More background

CBS This Morning interviewed two passengers today. The person up front is the son of the pilot. He said they were blessed to have survive and credit his father's (pilot's) skills during the crash with keeping them alive. Pilot was a pilot in Vietnam with many hours experience (forget total). Injury was a broken jaw in 3 places.
 
I witnessed that first-hand. It was one of two incidents that day, each one of which nearly killed four people and wrote off an airplane. The gods were smiling on pilots that day however, because both of them made it through unscathed.

FWIW, that strip is about 1400', and with a significant slope. It drops off a little steeper about two thirds of the way downhill, you can see the Stinson go over the lip after it passes the camera.
 
Glad everyone is well, but...

I just can't go along with the whole "airpocket" and "piloting skill" stuff. It would all sound plausible if not for the very clear video record of what actually happened. Too hot, too high, too heavy, etc. There were so many opportunities to pull the power and call it a day. Waiting till they were well over the forest with rising terrain was a very poor choice. it is what it is.
 
No mention of gently rising terrain. At times it is imperceptible yet it can easily exceed the climb capability of a loaded aircraft. I remember the case of a O-2 FAC pilot at a USAF Red Flag exercise I attended in the early 80's. He flew into rising terrain at low altitude and crashed. One of the search aircraft was another O-2 that found the crash site and flew the same ground track and crashed within sight of the first crash. Neither pilot recognized the terrain slope that exceeded their approximate 800 FPM climb rate.
 
I just can't go along with the whole "airpocket" and "piloting skill" stuff. It would all sound plausible if not for the very clear video record of what actually happened. Too hot, too high, too heavy, etc. There were so many opportunities to pull the power and call it a day. Waiting till they were well over the forest with rising terrain was a very poor choice. it is what it is.

Yup. To be honest, I'm not sure if there's really a way to "skillfully" fly an airplane into trees, but even if there is, and the pilot in question did so...it's quite clear that the only reason he had the opportunity to test out his tree-flying skills was because he simply wouldn't accept that his airplane didn't want to fly. Like you said, so many opportunities to set it down safely and reconsider the flight, none of which were taken.

With all that said, perhaps the more useful question to discuss is this: What was going through the pilot's mind during those two minutes of pseudo-flight? We can sit here, watch the video, and easily conclude that further flight was a bad idea, but how did the pilot justify continued flight? What can we do individually to make sure we don't make a similar bad decision?
 
No mention of gently rising terrain. At times it is imperceptible yet it can easily exceed the climb capability of a loaded aircraft. I remember the case of a O-2 FAC pilot at a USAF Red Flag exercise I attended in the early 80's. He flew into rising terrain at low altitude and crashed. One of the search aircraft was another O-2 that found the crash site and flew the same ground track and crashed within sight of the first crash. Neither pilot recognized the terrain slope that exceeded their approximate 800 FPM climb rate.
Agree about the rising terrain. That was my first thought when watching the video. Especially after reading the statement on the YouTube page stating an "air pocket" pushed the plane down. The video shows the truth. There was no down force, other than gravity that instilled its will upon this airplane. The rising terrain as they progressed forward with no measurable increase in altitude was the reason they eventually ended up in the tops of the trees.

It is always interesting to read the comments on such stories as this. The comments on the YouTube site are quite interesting. The original description on the video tells me whoever posted the video was either not a knowledgeable pilot or was in denial of what was the cause of the crash.

Other posts make comments to the effect the poster is glad: "everyone was alright". Like everyone else, I am glad there were no fatalities but it sure didn't look like the pilot was "alright"!
 
he Laws

We all mess with the rules and regs to some extent - but ya' gotta always obey the laws - as in the laws of aerodynamics.

High altitude, high temps, high gross weight - plus obstacle clearance and fuel mixture management. How many potentially negative variables does it take to get one's attention enough to ask "What if?"?

Paraphrase John Wayne - Sands of Iwo Jima: "Pilgram, life is hard, but life's a lot harder when you're stupid."
 
No comment on the events leading up to the crash but something I noticed in the last few seconds of slow motion video is that the pilot flew that sucker all the way till it stopped....He most likely saved some lives by not hauling back when they started hitting the trees.
 
No, but yes.

Pause at 00:14. Just another link in the chain, but keep it to yourself or we'll be closed.

The knob position at 00:14 was during taxi and we don't know what happen before takeoff.

But when you look at the slow motion section at 06:20, you will see that the red knob is all the way in.

Kent
 
Just sends shivers up my spine...

Someone mentioned deja vu, and yet another mentioned the rising terrain. This whole thing looked eerily similar to a training video that we use quite often here in Colorado for Civil Air Patrol Search and Rescue aircrew training. The effect is always the same after the video finishes - a very quiet room for several minutes, followed by discussion about what was witnessed, and how to avoid repeating it.

That video was of a restored L-19 bird dog that took off from Granby Colorado on another hot summer day many years ago (Elev close to 9000 feet without the density altitude). The difference is that the L-19 was not found for many years. When it was finally located, the video cartridge and film from an external mounted camera on the wing strut was discovered hanging from the trees. ANother difference - the pilot and passenger of this incident did not survive, so I am glad that this recent incident has a slightly different outcome.

Up until now, the L-19 was one of the only visual records of an actual light airplane crash that I was aware of. Sorry to have to say that now I guess we have a few more to reference.

Very glad that all survived. Very lucky that they did.
Be safe and check your density altitude please.
 
Stinson Video

I recognized the airplane in the Stinson Video so I contacted the owner for the "rest of the story". She kindly gave me permission to post her reply so that we could all learn from it.

"This was 10 years ago and an example of very poor decision making and flying on my part. It is on a small strip just north of Victoria - hot day, too many people and lack of experience. Fortunately I had a far more experienced pilot in the right seat who talked me out of real trouble after I had taken myself into it. More damage to my pride than the plane and I got safely to Nanaimo to check for damage and then home. Cost me some gear fairings.

I had no idea that anyone had taken this video till it showed up last year. Despite the fact that the call sign is clearly visible, the photographer did not have the courtesy to contact me before posting it. You are only about the hundredth person to let me know about it!

On the bright side, two US training outfits have asked my permission to include it in training videos so hopefully it will help prevent others doing the same thing."
 
Downdraft

Warning! Speculation ahead:

This plane may have had issues with weight and density altitude (and mixture management, etc). But there may be another issue as well.

In the interview the passenger stated that over the trees they encountered a downdraft. I do not doubt that they did. In fact, perhaps it should have been expected.

In my experience flying in the west, it is normal to have an updraft on the upwind side of a ridge, and a corresponding downdraft on the downwind side of the ridge. Thus, assuming they were taking off into a prevailing wind, and still flying into the wind as the approached the rising terrain, a downdraft would not be unusual. Perhaps it is another factor that may be considered.

I encountered very significant up and down drafts crossing ridges on my first two solo cross-country flights as a student. I was not prepared for them and they surprised me. Now with a little more experience, I expect them, prepare for them, and have not had any problems.

It may also be the case that the change in vegetation may have had an effect on the rising or falling air currents. Depending on the time of day, the open fields may have more heated air rising off of them than off of the tree-covered terrain. This might possibly have been perceived as an effective downdraft over the trees.

Marginal performance isn't good enough in situations like this.
 
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Marginal performance isn't good enough in situations like this.

This sums it up. Regardless of reason - over gross, engine issue, engine mismanagement, pilot error - my aircraft settles back to the runway on takeoff, and I have remaining distance, it's staying there...
 
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