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Powder coating issue

KatanaPilot

Well Known Member
Yesterday, when drilling the elevator horns on our newly built RV-7A tail, the power coating came off in large sections as the drill bit exited the hole.

I was easily able to flake off additional large pieces only to find poorly prepped and somewhat rusty bare metal underneath.

This was a bit disappointing as this was a new build tail with parts bought late in 2016. We will of course, clean up the bare metal and prime and paint the areas. We shouldn't have to and if this is the quality of the powder coated parts, I will try to get bare parts in the future and do them myself.

Anyone had a similar issue and how did you resolve it?
 
Sounds like a bad individual part. I've had a few of Van's powdercoated parts chip slightly when drilled but nothing like you describe. I know there is a matching paint color but not sure how/where to find it.

I plan to eventually paint most of the powdercoated parts so have mostly scuffed them a bit and touched up with primer where there is bare metal.
 
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Thanks!

I appreciate the info.

My gripe is the poor prep prior to powder coating. I would prefer bare metal versus an unknown adhesion to the substrate. I have powder coating equipment and if I had known, I would have recoated the parts myself. Now that the elevators are built, it's too late.
 
I appreciate the info.

My gripe is the poor prep prior to powder coating. I would prefer bare metal versus an unknown adhesion to the substrate. I have powder coating equipment and if I had known, I would have recoated the parts myself. Now that the elevators are built, it's too late.

I understand your frustration. It wouldn't surprise me if Van's is willing to go to the effort to send you bare parts. My perspective is this: 1) your experience is more about an individual part that came out bad than bad overall quality - Van's in this regard is at the mercy of their vendors and no quality control system is perfect 2) I see evidence continually that Van's is making efforts to improve quality and workmanship of parts. The newer fiberglass parts are a good example - the tips in my empennage kit were done with a newer style of gelcoat that sands nicely and has minimal pinholes, compared to what they've used in the past. 3) Van's customers are, overall, price sensitive (who isn't in aviation) and the "bang for the buck" is about as good as it gets.

Every time I have called Van's with an issue with a part the response has been professional, the response more/better than I expected, and always with someone who is articulate in my own language - in other words a superior customer experience.

I recently copied Mitch after I had called the parts department when I discovered that a part needed for a weekend marathon of work had been replaced in my kit by a very similarly numbered part (I missed the difference on my own inventory). Without my asking the part was shipped priority overnight on a Friday - I had it Saturday around 10AM and "built on".

Sorry to hijack your thread Krea - your frustration is evident but I'm betting Van's will do what they can to put it right.
 
I appreciate the info.

My gripe is the poor prep prior to powder coating. I would prefer bare metal versus an unknown adhesion to the substrate. I have powder coating equipment and if I had known, I would have recoated the parts myself. Now that the elevators are built, it's too late.

Typical for 7 parts. All holes have to be reamed too. At least they are consistent, mine are from 2001. Probably safer than a spotty acid etch process for stressed parts, and all the 4130 parts are stressed.
 
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Thanks for the advice

Thanks Turner and Bill.

In the grand scheme, it's not a big deal - especially now that I know. I can deal with that.

Big difference in left and right welded yokes too - over 5 degrees. That required a full day of work at Synergy getting the elevator up and down limit stops perfect. Building the stops per plan wasn't even close! But hey, this is supposed to be fun! (And it is, even with a few frustrating events.)
 
My perspective is this: 1) your experience is more about an individual part that came out bad than bad overall quality - Van's in this regard is at the mercy of their vendors and no quality control system is perfect.

When you are at the "mercy" of your subcontractors it's a sure sign that you do not have proper written quality control specifications in place to ensure that you get a product that is consistent and always adequate for the application. I contacted Vans years ago when the powder coating on my slider canopy frame delaminated. I asked them what the specification was for the powder coating pretreatment and they said they did not have a written pretreatment specification.

Proper pretreatment/passivation of metals prior to powder coating is costly and it is naive to believe that powder coating subcontractors will not cut corners in this area if they are asked to compete purely on price without a written specification.

Many builders these days are using adhesives to bond their acrylic canopies to their powder coated slider frames and they have absolutely no empirical evidence that the powdercoating supplied by Vans is adequately bonded to the metal underneath or that the metal is properly passivated to prevent corrosion under-creep.
 
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Rather than prime and paint, I'd suggest you take them to a local powder coater and get them blasted and then re-coated. You'll really like powder coat on your steel pieces and you can even get them done to match your paint scheme instead of the default off-white. I've never had a problem with the pieces from Vans but I've done a few of the bare pieces (steps, for example) and even aluminum fab (you can find pictures of my reworked battery mount somewhere in these forums). I haul a box of parts to my local guy and it usually costs $20. When the nose-gear mod for the -10 came out, I had mine welded in (didn't trust the shim to just sit there in place) and then had the entire engine mount blasted and redone for less than $100 as I recall.
 
When you are at the "mercy" of your subcontractors it's a sure sign that you do not have proper written quality control specifications in place to ensure that you get a product that is consistent and always adequate for the application. I contacted Vans years ago when the powder coating on my slider canopy frame delaminated. I asked them what the specification was for the powder coating pretreatment and they said they did not have a written pretreatment specification.

Proper pretreatment/passivation of metals prior to powder coating is costly and it is naive to believe that powder coating subcontractors will not cut corners in this area if they are asked to compete purely on price without a written specification.

Many builders these days are using adhesives to bond their acrylic canopies to their powder coated slider frames and they have absolutely no empirical evidence that the powdercoating supplied by Vans is adequately bonded to the metal underneath or that the metal is properly passivated to prevent corrosion under-creep.

You obviously know more about this topic than I do. It will be interesting to see if someone from Van's has any comments on this. I don't have a lot of data points, except for what I see here on the forum and observational experience: I recently came across a 20 or so year-old RV-6 and looked it over - the powdercoated parts (did not appear to be painted by the builder) appeared to be holding up well.
 
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Powder coat

Rather than prime and paint, I'd suggest you take them to a local powder coater and get them blasted and then re-coated. You'll really like powder coat on your steel pieces and you can even get them done to match your paint scheme instead of the default off-white. I've never had a problem with the pieces from Vans but I've done a few of the bare pieces (steps, for example) and even aluminum fab (you can find pictures of my reworked battery mount somewhere in these forums). I haul a box of parts to my local guy and it usually costs $20. When the nose-gear mod for the -10 came out, I had mine welded in (didn't trust the shim to just sit there in place) and then had the entire engine mount blasted and redone for less than $100 as I recall.

Vans will sell the weldments bare. It adds some time to the order but it's an option.
I ordered my canopy frame parts bare so they can be coated to match.
 
I used to manufacture metal railings and get them powdercoated by others for many years. General commercial practice is alkaline wash for degreasing and powdercoat. Some vendors sandblast upon request if they do sandblasting in their premises. Dont expect chemical surface prep such as cromating, phosphating etc. as they are a whole different ball game. If you do require such surface prep as for the process procedures and specs you have to get this done before you send the parts to the powder coating vendor. That was what we had done for many years when I was working in defence industry.
 
When you are at the "mercy" of your subcontractors it's a sure sign that you do not have proper written quality control specifications in place to ensure that you get a product that is consistent and always adequate for the application. I contacted Vans years ago when the powder coating on my slider canopy frame delaminated. I asked them what the specification was for the powder coating pretreatment and they said they did not have a written pretreatment specification.

Proper pretreatment/passivation of metals prior to powder coating is costly and it is naive to believe that powder coating subcontractors will not cut corners in this area if they are asked to compete purely on price without a written specification.

Many builders these days are using adhesives to bond their acrylic canopies to their powder coated slider frames and they have absolutely no empirical evidence that the powdercoating supplied by Vans is adequately bonded to the metal underneath or that the metal is properly passivated to prevent corrosion under-creep.

no offense, but paper is paper. jut because you have a spec their is no reason to believe the sub will follow it. we deal with ISO, UL and the rest of the money grabbers on a daily basis, and the spec industry is just that, a way to make a buck. The only way to assure quality is to inspect the parts that you subcontract and inspect the subcontractors operation.

this is exactly why our company does its own powder. on steel if the part does not go from blast or treatment directly into the power booth, oxidation starts, a few hours can make the difference between a good bond and junk.

our parts now go from the blast cabinet to the powder booth in minutes.

the problem with taking your parts to a powder shop is if they are not shooting the color you want right now, they may sit for while until they are shooting that color.

the problem is with vans, the amount of parts they powder coat is rather small (in the big picture) and does not justify the cost of the equipment and labor to do their own powder coat. from what I have seen, their suppliers do a pretty good job, but some parts are sure to get by.

bob burns
RV-4 N82RB

bob burns
 
no offense, but paper is paper. jut because you have a spec their is no reason to believe the sub will follow it. we deal with ISO, UL and the rest of the money grabbers on a daily basis, and the spec industry is just that, a way to make a buck.

No offence taken. However in my experience it is not an insurmountable problem to get consistent high quality powder coating performed by a subcontractor. You do not have to do your own powder coating to get a quality job. But the first step is to know what type of pretreatment/powdercoating you require and put that specification in writing. The second step is to only call quotations from companies that have the capacity to fulfil the specification.

High quality companies provide high quality pretreatments in-house for various metal substrates and varying environmental conditions. No-one needs to get their pretreatment done by one subbie and then transport the parts to a powdercoater. Larger scale industrial powdercoaters will be able to perform all operations under the one roof in a timely and approved sequence.

Here's a URL to such a company and they are just one of many.

http://westcentralpowdercoating.com/cleaning.html

If you go to this site it will also provide enlightening information on the various types of pretreatments available. In the case of Van's steel components they should all be passivated with zinc phosphate, or iron phosphate at the very least.

Powdercoating is a barrier coating. Once the barrier is chipped or damaged corrosion can run under the powder coating unless the metal substrate is properly passivated.

The problem is that many powdercoaters do not have any passivation facilities because it costs more money to set up high quality pretreatment facilities than it does to set up a powder coating line. They simply give the components a quick degrease and spray on the powder. And that might be OK for indoor architectural products like tables and chairs etc but it is completely inadequate for industrial (or aviation) products exposed to the environment.
 
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Yesterday, when drilling the elevator horns on our newly built RV-7A tail, the power coating came off in large sections as the drill bit exited the hole.

I was easily able to flake off additional large pieces only to find poorly prepped and somewhat rusty bare metal underneath.

This was a bit disappointing as this was a new build tail with parts bought late in 2016. We will of course, clean up the bare metal and prime and paint the areas. We shouldn't have to and if this is the quality of the powder coated parts, I will try to get bare parts in the future and do them myself.

Anyone had a similar issue and how did you resolve it?

This has been pretty much the norm for me. When the coating comes off, I just sand it back to where it has actually adhered, then prime. I then paint to match, or leave it for the paint shop depending on the location.
 
Cardinal Paint to match


Didn't find the touchup paint mentioned here on Van's site. I'm not sure if one would call them and ask whether they would have it or not.

I'm working on getting a case of the same paint from Cardinal now, and it will be up on our site as soon as I can get it in stock (and hopefully at Oshkosh too!). If anyone is interested, you can get in touch with me via email or PM.
 
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I've had a few issues with the quality control on some kit parts, but Van's has always been very helpful and quick to provide new parts and advice. I know I'd never be able to finish a project like this by myself.

They do tend to go "economy class" in a lot of areas, but that's why I can build a plane for less than 1/4 the price of a cessnapiperbeech that goes a LOT faster, with a better view, burns less gas, pulls some gees....

I love this stuff!
 
No question Van's does a great job in most areas and with customer support.

In this particular case, there is no easy way to remove the elevator horns, strip the powder coating and refinish them as they are riveted to the elevator structure. So I'll deal with it. My desire is for a bit better process control by the vendor which would benefit all of us. It probably would not cost much to implement.
 
Anyone know who Van's powder coating vendor is? I was going to take some pieces to an outfit which happens to be in Aurora, and I'm wondering if it's the same.
 
Just stumbled across this having pulled my elevator horns for an RV7 off the shelf this evening....
The coating on one of them has blown and on removing there's light corrosion across at least half the horn. The other horn looks like it's bubbling. I received the empennage kit earlier this year. Guess I'll have to find a local powder coater who's willing to do these for me
 
"Powdercoating is a barrier coating. Once the barrier is chipped or damaged corrosion can run under the powder coating unless the metal substrate is properly passivated."

"The coating on one of them has blown and on removing there's light corrosion across at least half the horn. The other horn looks like it's bubbling."


Keep in mind your motor mount is also powder coated. Corrosion can happen under the coating without showing on the surface like paint.
 
Just stumbled across this having pulled my elevator horns for an RV7 off the shelf this evening....
The coating on one of them has blown and on removing there's light corrosion across at least half the horn. The other horn looks like it's bubbling. I received the empennage kit earlier this year. Guess I'll have to find a local powder coater who's willing to do these for me

The bad news is you have some failure of the powder coating. The good news is you found out before the horns were riveted to the elevator. My luck wasn't as good...

And my RV-10 elevators are complete also. Hopefully the powder coat folks did a better job on those.
 
The bad news is you have some failure of the powder coating. The good news is you found out before the horns were riveted to the elevator. My luck wasn't as good...

And think of all of the RV builders who have used Sikaflex to adhere their plexiglass canopies to Vans dodgy powder coated canopy frames. Vans have always advised against the Sikaflex process. They probably knew something that the Sikaflex beta tester/builders did not.
 
Paint

johnbright: To answer your question there is absolutely nothing wrong with paint as long as the preparation and paint type is appropriate to the purpose. I do know I prefer paint it will not hide rust it shows and is easily spotted and easily repaired, powder coated on the other hand produces a very good looking finish but can have a poor bond and conceal rust until failure of the part . I have experienced this several times with light weight components on heavy equipment over the years ( retired contractor ) . With that said I have found the quality of the powder coated parts in my 8 kit to be quite satisfactory, but I will be riveting my canopy to the frame even though sikaflex looks so clean and nice in this structural area secure attachment is paramount.
 
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