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  #11  
Old 11-08-2018, 12:09 PM
bcondrey bcondrey is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Bellevue, NE
Posts: 493
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So, 2 different things being discussed...

1) a warning system to ensure the front and back pins are engaged is provided with the kit. It uses magnets in the pins and reed switches to detect them. If a door doesnít have BOTH pins engaged, an LED will illuminate. Alternatively, or in addition to, you can drive discreet inputs on a G3x or other device.

2) mechanical door closure system: Vans designed their middle latch to ensure complete closure (there has been at least 1 aircraft with it installed that lost a door anyway. PlaneAround has a really nice center latch system thatís integrated with the stock closure mechanism. In addition to holding the door closed, it actually pulls the door shut when the stock handle is rotated into the closed position. With this system installed, itís not possible to have the typical issue that allows a door to depart the aircraft (front pin engaged, aft pin outside the aircraft). The PlaneAround design is MUCH nicer than the Vans afterthought. Further, PlaneAround also makes longer pins that extend further into the frame than stock.

In summary, the PlaneAround center latch should be considered a must have for -10 builders. For those that donít choose this path, door pin extension into door frames should be confirmed during construction. Further, preflight check should be done on front AND aft pins (both doors) to confirm closure. Regardless of latching system, the interior handles should also be checked to confirm fully latched.
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RV-10 (#2) N2622S
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  #12  
Old 11-08-2018, 12:15 PM
az_gila's Avatar
az_gila az_gila is offline
 
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Location: 57AZ - NW Tucson area
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike S View Post
Why do you use a check list in the first place???

Is it not to make sure you have checked things, and assured that they are working correctly before you take an action------Start Engine list, Takeoff list, Landing list etc.

We could just forget the check lists, and wait for the engine to get quiet or other things to go wrong and activate a warning light

Besides, I just simply do not like using power continuously for the purpose of turning a light off.

Anyway, this is just what I did, you are free do do it however makes sense to you.
My suggestion was much closer to the dome light system in your car.

Warning lights on the panel sort of over-ride check lists - that why we make them red...

No power is consumed when the doors are closed - that was for Vans system with relays.
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Gil Alexander
EAA Technical Counselor, Airframe Mechanic
Half completed RV-10 QB purchased
RV-6A N61GX - finally flying
Grumman Tiger N12GA - flying
La Cholla Airpark (57AZ) Tucson AZ
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  #13  
Old 11-08-2018, 12:39 PM
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Mike S Mike S is offline
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Dayton Airpark, NV A34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by az_gila View Post
My suggestion was much closer to the dome light system in your car.
Yep, yet another way to de-fur the feline.
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Mike Starkey
VAF 909

Rv-10, N210LM.

Flying as of 12/4/2010

Phase 1 done, 2/4/2011

Sold after 240+ wonderful hours of flight.

"Flying the airplane is more important than radioing your plight to a person on the ground incapable of understanding or doing anything about it."
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  #14  
Old 11-08-2018, 02:04 PM
rvbuilder2002 rvbuilder2002 is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Hubbard Oregon
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Default Correction.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by bcondrey View Post
Vans designed their middle latch to ensure complete closure (there has been at least 1 aircraft with it installed that lost a door anyway.

The middle latch was designed to be a passive back-up in case the door isn't correctly latched.

It doesn't ensure complete closure of the door.

As far as it not preventing at least one door loss.... The fact that these airplanes are in reality amateur built can be an explanation for an occasional failure. I am not meaning that it is a certainty, because the safety latch was not extensively flight tested, but it can't be discounted either since there have also been cases where the safety latch did save the door from being lost.
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  #15  
Old 11-08-2018, 02:14 PM
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Mike S Mike S is offline
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Location: Dayton Airpark, NV A34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rvbuilder2002 View Post
the system was specifically designed the way it is, to help mitigate a false safe indication caused by a variety of failure types within the system (broken wire, shorted wire, etc.)
I have no idea if the system has be redesigned since I did mine.

As I remember this, (10 years or so since I installed the warning lights) the power for the light and relay is from the same source. Thus a broken wire here can cause a false safe indication. Also a broken wire from the relay to the LED will cause a false safe indication.

Consider this; I pull the plane out to go fly and do my walk around----all good so I get in and shut the doors. I flip on the master, and while waiting for the EFIS to boot up I start the check list. Right at the top is "Check Doors" I push the button, and get two green. At that time I know the doors are secure. If I do not get two green, I know there is a problem.

Now, same scenario with factory automatic red warning lights. I pull the plane out to go fly and do my walk around----all good so I get in and shut the doors. I flip on the master, and while waiting for the EFIS to boot up I start the check list. Right at the top is "Check Doors". I glance at the warning lights, and they are not on. All I really know at the moment is the lights are not on------but I have no idea if the system is actually working as designed or if there is a broken wire or a failed light.

I suppose it would be possible to put in both a green light for latched and a red for not latched, and drive the green from the N.O. contact of the relay. Might be a better system------after all, lots of things in the plane have booth red and green indications, oil temp and pressure gauges comes to mind.

As I said previously;

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike S View Post
Anyway, this is just what I did, you are free do do it however makes sense to you.
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Mike Starkey
VAF 909

Rv-10, N210LM.

Flying as of 12/4/2010

Phase 1 done, 2/4/2011

Sold after 240+ wonderful hours of flight.

"Flying the airplane is more important than radioing your plight to a person on the ground incapable of understanding or doing anything about it."
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  #16  
Old 11-08-2018, 03:28 PM
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Carl Froehlich Carl Froehlich is offline
 
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Location: Dogwood Airpark (VA42)
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This is a lot of discussion on what has been previously hashed out. The RV-10 doors are problematic, steps must be taken to mitigate this risk but a proven path has already been identified. Iíll summarize:
- Plane around center cam. This is simply a must do. The Vanís after thought SB safety door latch is marginal at best, and just not acceptable on these $200K airplanes.
- Each door pin has a magnet that closes itís own micro switch. The switches are wired in series so that only all four pins properly in place will yield the doors shut indication. For the vast majority of builders this signal is used to activate an EFIS input (so no extra relays or LEDs required or desired). On the SkyView I have a red indication on the EMS display, once all the doors pins are in it goes to green. Just about as simple as it gets.

Carl
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  #17  
Old 11-08-2018, 03:36 PM
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Paddy Paddy is offline
 
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Location: Chicago
Posts: 228
Default Door Warning

I used the PlaneAround latch and can't rotate the handle unless both pins are engaged and the cam is in place on the block. For a backup, the rear pins contact a mechanical microswitch wired to the G3X so that there's a CAS on the EFIS which also illuminates the Master Warning light on the panel. This same Master Warning light is used to alert for low oil pressure, below min fuel and other can't-be-missed info. Just another way to solve for the same problem.
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  #18  
Old 11-08-2018, 03:57 PM
woxofswa woxofswa is online now
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Mesa Arizona
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In my humble opinion Vanís should adopt the plarne around system and the Andair fuel valve as standard kit issue just like they did with the Vetterman exhaust.

I love Vanís company and my RV10, but was sorely disappointed with the ugly door latch ďfixĒ, especially with how elegant, simple, and effective the plane around system is for not much more installation effort. I like cheap as much as the next guy, but weíre talking about a serious concern (door pops) on 200k+ machines. Do it right. Lights plus latches.
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RV-10 BPE, Dynon, Airflow systems A/C
First flight May 10, 2014
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  #19  
Old 11-08-2018, 04:24 PM
rvbuilder2002 rvbuilder2002 is offline
 
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Location: Hubbard Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike S View Post
I have no idea if the system has be redesigned since I did mine.

As I remember this, (10 years or so since I installed the warning lights) the power for the light and relay is from the same source. Thus a broken wire here can cause a false safe indication. Also a broken wire from the relay to the LED will cause a false safe indication.

Consider this; I pull the plane out to go fly and do my walk around----all good so I get in and shut the doors. I flip on the master, and while waiting for the EFIS to boot up I start the check list. Right at the top is "Check Doors" I push the button, and get two green. At that time I know the doors are secure. If I do not get two green, I know there is a problem.

Now, same scenario with factory automatic red warning lights. I pull the plane out to go fly and do my walk around----all good so I get in and shut the doors. I flip on the master, and while waiting for the EFIS to boot up I start the check list. Right at the top is "Check Doors". I glance at the warning lights, and they are not on. All I really know at the moment is the lights are not on------but I have no idea if the system is actually working as designed or if there is a broken wire or a failed light.

I suppose it would be possible to put in both a green light for latched and a red for not latched, and drive the green from the N.O. contact of the relay. Might be a better system------after all, lots of things in the plane have booth red and green indications, oil temp and pressure gauges comes to mind.

As I said previously;
Mike,
I didn't say the design mitigated all possible failure modes, and I didn't mean that it is the only way it should be done.
They are experimental airplanes after all... do what every you think is right for you depending on what type of indication system you have to connect it to..
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Scott McDaniels
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RV-6A (aka "Junkyard Special ")
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  #20  
Old 11-08-2018, 04:38 PM
woxofswa woxofswa is online now
 
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I donít remember the technical details, but my door lights through my SkyView system are continuous green for closed and red for open.
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Mesa, AZ
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RV-10 BPE, Dynon, Airflow systems A/C
First flight May 10, 2014
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