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thoughts on vans pricing release

n82rb

Well Known Member
first, I have the utmost respect for van and the people at vans aircraft. I don't want to start any bashing or anything along those lines. I am wondering what people think about the pricing and availability release.

I understand what they are up against with all the models of aircraft that they produce and that there are costs with servicing these models. there is fine line between profit line and customer service. changes must come as new models are introduced and older model sales slow or even stop ( as in the case of the 6)

what really concerns me is not knowing what "significantly" is. what has this decision done to the value of every 3, 4, and 6 out there? if parts become 1 to 2 years to get and significantly higher in price, I am afraid that the value of my aircraft just went down the sewer. what will parts availability do to insurance rates? expensive parts, long lead times usually leads to higher hull rates or even unavailability to get hull coverage.

I believe that vans did not come to this decision lightly, but I cant help but feel that they just threw everyone that helped them become as great a company they are under the bus.

bob burns
RV-4 N82RB
 
I think vans does not want any more 3?s or 4?s built and this is just their way of ending these kit sales without saying that they are being ended. Glad my 3 is just about ready to fly. I am sure it will be one of the last ever built
 
I think vans does not want any more 3?s or 4?s built and this is just their way of ending these kit sales without saying that they are being ended. Glad my 3 is just about ready to fly. I am sure it will be one of the last ever built

if thats it fine, just stop selling the kits. but to tell 4200 builders that parts MAY be available with a 1 to 2 year lead time at an ELEVATED price is not good for 4200 of us.

bob burns
RV-4 N82RB
 
And here I am just finishing off my HS stab on my 4. Rest of the kit ships in the next few days. Only thing that worries me now is if I make a mistake at anytime during my build and need to order a spare part, this could now take months and bring the project to a stand still. Oh well, build on
 
I think there is starting to be less and less air plane builders and more airplane assemblers. I consider my self an airplane assembler with my Rv 8, i think the kit is phenomenal, yet some people say they would never build an 8 because of the amount of work involved compared to the newer planes. Vans is a buisness and they are doing what makes sense for them.
 
Mmmm, yeah. Not sure what to make of this, and how it may impact my future plans.

I?ve been right on the edge of pulling the trigger on Vince?s new F1 empennage to begin a Rocket build. The thought is that you pair this with -4 wings (or maybe evo wings, but there?s not a firm commitment to put these back into production ). Also, I?m still not sure how many -4 parts might be needed in an F1 fuselage.

So, discontinuation of the -4 line might impact a Rocket build. Lots of variables to consider, but it does give pause on committing. Makes an -8 that much more attractive.
 
Parts to maintain the fleet

Most of the parts could be fabricated by anyone who put the effort into it. I wonder if the more difficult parts not fabbed at Vans could be contracted from the source vendor. Its not like the plans arent available..
Cm
 
I can finally rest easy knowing future builders won't flood the market with new -3B's. :cool:
 
As far as operating/maintenance/repair goes, I'm not worried about this. A large number of parts are the same between the 6/7/9, in fact I think most of my -6 finishing kit pieces purchased 5ish years ago have 6/7/9 stamped on them. And for the rest, short of the gear legs and maybe the engine mount, there isn't much I wouldn't feel comfortable making at home.

Now, if your part way though a build and need a kit, then that's pretty rough.
 
Build from stock

An RV-4 not far from me was built from stock aluminum using only the plans - the guy claimed he didn't buy any prefab parts at all. It was his 2nd RV-4, the first was built using parts from Van's. He even made his own gear, weldments, and engine mount. He bought some stuff from ACS.

If the market is big enough, someone will spin off a "Van's Classics" company that supports the early models.
 
Ugh... Deep into the wing kit of my all-bells-and-whistles RV-7A, I sometimes think to myself after I finish this thing, my NEXT one would have to be a super simple, no-frills, manual-everything, light, steam-gauge RV-3. Maybe not though, if they're winding down support for these :(
 
Totally understandable business decision. And, they will continue to support old models for the foreseeable future, albeit at an increased cost. Try getting that kind of support for your 10 or 20 year old computer or operating system.

For the greater good of the airplane kit community we need a financially healthy Van?s Aircraft. Hard decisions like this are often necessary to stay viable.
 
Wonder what this will do to the RV3 and RV4 market.

Good while it lasted . . . distinct possibility that prices for good flyable units will go up, along with unfinished kits as wave of scrounging ensues. At least for the 3 & 4. The 7 is a good replacement for a 6 so that one will likely go away, but the 3 & 4 are unique by comparison.

Unless there is a good alternative (competition) out there for those two models then sales could shift to a new/different company.

Maybe this slowly drives up the sales in the F4 arena, as they can offer more pre punched parts.

4200 kits-in-progress for 3, 4 & 6, really? [I stand corrected - likely based on unfinished to flying ratio]

In any case, It will be interesting to see how the market(s) responds.
 
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Pricing

With over 25 Thousand tail kits sold and over half of them 4 & 6 to alienate over half your customers whats up with that?
Bob:mad:
 
Good while it lasted . . . distinct possibility that prices for good flyable units will go up, along with unfinished kits as wave of scrounging ensues. At least for the 3 & 4. The 7 is a good replacement for a 6 so that one will likely go away, but the 3 & 4 are unique by comparison.

Unless there is a good alternative (competition) out there for those two models then sales could shift to a new/different company.

Maybe this slowly drives up the sales in the F4 arena, as they can offer more pre punched parts.

4200 kits-in-progress for 3, 4 & 6, really?

In any case, It will be interesting to see how the market(s) responds.

No, there are 4200 flying. Who knows how many in progress.
 
As another poster said, this is understandable from a business standpoint, but where I think they've made a mistake is in making this effective in less than two months. So if you're building one of these kits, you have to come up with a lot of money on short notice right before the holidays???

Sounds desperate to me. They should make the effective date Jan 2019.
 
It's just supply and demand and Vans has stepped up by letting the older kit builders/flyers know that "hey, even though we can't make any money on these kits or parts anymore, we're here for you!"

Most businesses would have just dropped the product and the parts support.

Auto manufacturers do the same thing. They produce a surplus run and shut down those lines. As the surplus thins, the prices on those parts skyrocket and subsequent runs are really expensive if they happen at all.

They haven't abandoned anybody or discontinued anything. Good on Vans for handling it the way they did, tough call.
 
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It's just supply and demand and Vans has stepped up by letting the older kit builders/flyers know that "hey, even though we can't make any money on these kits or parts anymore, we're here for you!"

Most businesses would have just dropped the product and the parts support.

Auto manufacturers do the same thing. They produce a surplus run and shut down those lines. As the surplus thins, the prices on those parts skyrocket and subsequent runs are really expensive if they happen at all.

They haven't abandoned anybody or discontinued anything. Good on Vans for handling it the way they did, tough call.

I haven't seen anyone drop support with less than two months notice. Even Microsoft publishes their end of support dates well in advance. Feeling like they have to pull this trigger with less than two months notice is not a good sign. Sounds like the kind of thing that would be recommended by a consultant trying to improve the numbers for next year.
 
I deal with most of the major (and minor) kit companies on a daily basis, and what many builders dont realize is just how thin the margins are in this business. Limiting support for older models is a tough decision, but economics is a numbers game, and emotions just put you out of the game.

We own both a -3 and a -6, and frankly, this doesn't bother me. Having built the -3, I can pretty much fabricate any part I need. We didn't build the -6, but I know that parts are parts, and fabrication is always an option. Yes - I've done a lot of building, but help is available for those who haven't.

You simply cannot compare Van's (or any kit company) to Microsoft, Ford, or Honda - the immense dimensions in scale make real-world economics irrelevant.


Resale value? I never look at an airplane as an investment these days. I just enjoy them.

Paul
 
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I haven't seen anyone drop support with less than two months notice.

They haven't dropped support, it will just cost more and perhaps take longer. At least they told everybody, they could have just as easily not said a thing (the better PR move) and at some point your order would have been met with a price increase or back order.
 
I don't have a dog in this hunt. My plane is done and I have no plans to build another, but putting -3 and -4 builders in a sudden squeeze for money is not the way I would have managed this...
 
This can only be a good thing for current owners... North American isn't supporting the P-51 series anymore either, and look at the resale prices for them on B*rnst*rmers... You -3 and -4 owners will be rich! :p
 
Is it possible, then, to build a -3 or -4 from plans? I don't have my -9 plans in front of me, but I don't remember dimensions, et. al. in those plans. Are the -3 / -4 plans different in this respect?

I too thought "maybe one day I'll build a dirt simple steam gauge -3." Building completely from plans might be even more fun. But without material callouts and dimensions, unlikely I'd be comfortable doing that.

Bummer. Oh well, I don't have the first one done yet, so ...
 
The answer is for vans to offer a "rocket" kit of there own. I would be first in line for a 6 cylinder, rv8 style, rocket performance kit with vans badging on it.

Make it a tapered wing while they are at it. Heck I could easily be convinced to join you in that line.
 
Is it possible, then, to build a -3 or -4 from plans? I don't have my -9 plans in front of me, but I don't remember dimensions, et. al. in those plans. Are the -3 / -4 plans different in this respect?

I too thought "maybe one day I'll build a dirt simple steam gauge -3." Building completely from plans might be even more fun. But without material callouts and dimensions, unlikely I'd be comfortable doing that.

Bummer. Oh well, I don't have the first one done yet, so ...

Yes

The plans for the RV-3, 4 and 6 were originally drawn including info that would be required to build entirely from scratch (including material call-outs, etc).
 
Looking at my -4, the hard parts are the engine mount, gear legs and a couple of other weldments. I suspect that these are subcontracted anyway aren't they? Other than that the -4 is a few formed bulkheads, ribs and a bunch of flat stock. Oh of course the canopy too - but there has been Todds and hopefully his production will be restarted by the new owner.

If the subcontractor made those parts available to those who want them on a special order basis there is no reason that -4s would no longer be built if VANs still sold the plans and gave out serial numbers. But it would be true diehard homebuilders, not the new generation of pampered assemblers :p

And for the owners who need a new engine mount, gear leg etc, I expect those contracted fabricators will still make stuff if people will buy it. Nobody ever turned down cold hard cash.
 
On the RV-3B, the canopy frames, wing spars (they're the kind with the machined caps) and engine mount (for dynafocal engines) are not included with enough detail to build one. The original built-up spars are not included in the plans. The rest of the plane is pretty well defined in the old-style plans. But even so, you folks with the double-digit models will be shocked if you start an RV-3B.

So it's not all that easy to build one off the plans. And there is competition for the RV-3 market out there with at least one more kit company.

As a current RV-3B builder, currently skinning the fuselage, these changes won't immediately affect me; I have all the RV-3B kits available and have been buying just parts lately. Since there's no FWF RV-3B kit, that's the sort of thing I'm been getting.

But I have no idea how this will affect the long-term market for these planes. Can't imagine that anything good will happen, since one of the positive things has been the on-going factory sales and support.

That said, I hope that Van's continues to support the kits already out there. It would be serious if they withdrew builder support (and fortunately there's no indication of that right now).

I do wish that they'd given the community a year's lead time, though. Buying a kit is a serious and expensive commitment, and people reasonably ought to have been given more time to save or prepare for this.

Dave
 
They haven't dropped support, it will just cost more and perhaps take longer. At least they told everybody, they could have just as easily not said a thing (the better PR move) and at some point your order would have been met with a price increase or back order.

What Bill said. I doubt they are throwing away the tooling.
 
Ugh... Deep into the wing kit of my all-bells-and-whistles RV-7A, I sometimes think to myself after I finish this thing, my NEXT one would have to be a super simple, no-frills, manual-everything, light, steam-gauge RV-3. Maybe not though, if they're winding down support for these :(

The difference between building a -7 vs a 3 is like the difference in to going to Chili's for dinner or catching a rabbit and eating it raw. There is no comparison.

Van's is not killing support, they be only increasing the cost for those that want to continue. Some day in the future Van's will not support them at all; it's called business. All good things must come to and end.

I myself have a 3B in slow gestation and I mean slow. I am minus the finish kit. I'm thinking of ordering the finish kit at 2017 prices and when it arrives (who knows when?) I'll at least know that I have all the parts to finish the airframe. If I don't finish then the next guy down the line at least has all the kits to finish the airframe.

That's my take on Van's position. The fact that they still support the 3, 4 and 6 airframes is beyond belief.
 
The worst scenario is not that Vans makes a few tough decisions on supply of parts for very old models. The worst scenario is that they DO NOT make the necessary tough decisions and become insolvent, thus leaving EVERYONE in a horrible position.

Most RV aficionados seem to believe that Vans is an invincible economic goliath of the kit-building industry, but as Paul Dye has pointed out margins are thin in this game .....and potential legal liability is massive. Vans needs to make the tough calls to avoid becoming too financially brittle. As RV builders and owners we are all dependent on Vans in some measure. Thus their success is our success.

There are people out there in RV land who actually live in la la land. They believe that Vans should be run like some sort of philanthropic charity.
 
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The worst scenario is not that Vans makes a few tough decisions on supply of parts for very old models. The worst scenario is that they DO NOT make the necessary tough decisions and become insolvent, thus leaving EVERYONE in a horrible position.

Most RV aficionados seem to believe that Vans is an invincible economic goliath of the kit-building industry, but as Paul Dye has pointed out margins are thin in this game .....and potential legal liability is massive. Vans needs to make the tough calls to avoid becoming too financially brittle. As RV builders and owners we are all dependent on Vans in some measure. Thus their success is our success.

I would say that if Van's gave the customers a 1+ year window to conclude as much business as possible on the older kits, they would generate a LOT of business (and profit) over that year with legacy builders pushing towards the finish line. The proposed timing ain't good (short notice, holidays, etc) for folks on a budget.
 
Make Room?

Yes. . . They're making room on the shelves for the new modern kit, single seat, fastback, with the flight characteristics or the -3 and comfort of the -8. Powered from LSA to 200HP.

What? Don't wake me, I'm enjoying a nice dream. That would be #2 if it ever happens.
 
Bob, I agree completely, but what I think the worry for most Current 4 builders is that if you don?t have all 4 subkits, you have now been given just over a month to come up with the cash to get whatever is outstanding, and if you can?t we?ll then your 4 is going to become a very expensive toy.
 
I do find it a bit of a shame that the 3 is being made more difficult/expensive to build, as it doesn't really have a successor in the lineup like the 4 and the 6. However, business is business, if they aren't selling there 'aint no reason to keep them around.

It's also not the first time that kits have been discontinued, they stopped shipping -6 tails and wings years ago, so in theory the writing has been on the wall for some time. (not the same for the 3 and 4 mind you)

Alex
 
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I do find it a bit of a shame that the 3 is being discontinued, as it doesn't really have a successor in the lineup like the 4 and the 6.

I am not sure why this keeps coming up...

<Snipped directly from the announcement posted on the web site>

Production runs for these kits will not
cease,
 
Bob, I agree completely, but what I think the worry for most Current 4 builders is that if you don?t have all 4 subkits, you have now been given just over a month to come up with the cash to get whatever is outstanding, and if you can?t we?ll then your 4 is going to become a very expensive toy.

The RV4 was effectively rendered obsolete when the RV8 was introduced in 1995. In other words virtually all ongoing RV4 builders have had at least 22 years to buy all their kits. ;)
 
I think one of the things that worries me the most is the wording of the release. Like prices significantly increase, spares MAY be available, and delivery times of two years. If I hit a bird and need a couple of wing ribs that are now 20 bucks and they go to 200 bucks and it takes two years to get them, it renders my plane un-repairable. Or someone that just started the wings, buys the other kits now but messes up a former in the fuse two years down the road, and can't get a new one. If find the release lacking in details as to what over 4000 owners might be facing. I don't have a problem with long lead times for a new kit, or even discontinuing a kit, but not being able to get parts that are hard to make, such as hydro formed parts and heat treated parts, is a bit scary.

Bob burns
 
Being a Lancair builder, I'd like to add a different perspective. When Lance started selling the model 235 kits in the late eighties, they were really inexpensive. My kit cost only $15,975 (not including engine, panel, interior, and paint). In retrospect, it's clear that Lance grossly underestimated the costs of "after-care": engineering updates, customer service and spare parts (and probably liability insurance). Lance designed some great airplanes but (IMHO), was a poor businessman. The company continued to support the original customers for almost 30 years, but they were hemorrhaging money at the end and finally had to give it up.

All I am saying is that it's important to all RVers that the company stay in business. If Vans has to raise prices on certain older designs in order to cover their costs, then I see that as reasonable and necessary.

Flame away!
 
I think one of the things that worries me the most is the wording of the release. Like prices significantly increase, spares MAY be available, and delivery times of two years. If I hit a bird and need a couple of wing ribs that are now 20 bucks and they go to 200 bucks and it takes two years to get them, it renders my plane un-repairable. Or someone that just started the wings, buys the other kits now but messes up a former in the fuse two years down the road, and can't get a new one. If find the release lacking in details as to what over 4000 owners might be facing. I don't have a problem with long lead times for a new kit, or even discontinuing a kit, but not being able to get parts that are hard to make, such as hydro formed parts and heat treated parts, is a bit scary.

Bob burns
t

Bob I don't think it's too much of a concern - the skills to hand make these parts are easily acquired should it ever come to that, or it would be easy enough to find someone else who could do them. You won't be tied to the factory if repairs are ever needed.
 
This is one of those topics that immediately fell victim to "Forum Fever".

Nowhere does it say anything was being discontinued, if anything, it was a letter of ongoing commitment but just putting those models on notice that after many decades it's time to wind them down.

How long should Vans support a kit? What is reasonable? I think I'll start a separate vote thread on that.
 
I can't speak to the 3, but for the -4 and 6, there is not a single part that you cannot fab yourself. All the info is in the plans, materials, heat-treat, dimensions. Parts like gear legs would be expensive, but a bird strike? You can make a couple ribs faster than the current shipping time from Vans. A piece of MDF, a jigsaw, ruler, mallet, and you are in business. Yes, it would be more work, but if the lead time turned into months, then you have time. Except for the ribs and bulkheads, most everything is flat or a couple straight bends. I'm not too concerned. The only part that sucks is the end of -3 kits for the most part.
 
It seems that some want to conflate "support" with "timing". My only issue is timing. Of course, you can't support a product forever, but to put builders in a corner with less than two months notice? If they had said that the price increases (undefined, but "significant") were effective a year from now or even July 1, 2018, I'd completely support that. That gives a reasonable amount of time to plan the remaining build, cash flow, etc.
 
to put builders in a corner with less than two months notice

If they had done that with the modern kits (7-14) then I would agree, but the kits they put on notice were 30+ years old:

1971 RV-3 (46 years)
1980 RV-4 (37 years)
1986 RV-6 (31 years)

It's a gift of reassurance that they issued a statement of continuing commitment to these kits.
 
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Last year I was essentially told by insurers to "look elsewhere" for insurance for my plans-built homebuilt airplane. Their rationale was that lack of "factory" support for parts would make ANY incident that bent the airplane a write-off event.

From reading all the posts in this thread I get the feeling the -3 and -4 builders/owners are a far cry from being in this predicament. Having some or all parts available, albeit perhaps at increased price and lead times, keeps the designs alive and viable.
 
Their rationale was that lack of "factory" support for parts would make ANY incident that bent the airplane a write-off event.

Yea, I can see that rationale for plans-built.

There are a lot of RV-6's out there that need insurance, somebody would step up.

Anybody in the insurance industry have an opinion?
 
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