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  #21  
Old 05-13-2011, 03:35 PM
Lars Lars is offline
 
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I've used both CS-1900 and Fire Barrier 2000+ (but haven't burn-tested either product).

The OP asked about a material suitable for small dabs. That wouldn't be CS-1900. Once you mix it in the SEM cartridge you can slow the reaction by freezing it, but you won't stop it. I used the CS-1900 to seal the firewall recess and some spots around the lower edges of the firewall where it intersects the skin. I put the leftover back in the freezer. When I checked it a week later it was useless. Besides that, it's curious material. It's a polysulfide, but unlike regular "proseal", it's barely sticky at all. To the point that I wondered if it would stay put when cured. It does though; once it kicks it adheres well.

Fire Barrier 2000+ on the other hand is a type of silicone sealer. Like any silicone it'll last for quite a while as long as it's not exposed to the atmosphere. Since the cartridge I got had a nozzle with no cap, I just put a piece of clear packing tape over the tip when I'm done. This stuff is sticky, like any silicone. And like any silicone, at least when I handle it, the stuff defies gravity and gets all over me. Occupational hazard.

Also: Fire Barrier 2000+ is intuminescent; it swells mightily when it gets hot. The stuff is really meant to go inside crevices or (for example) a tubular firewall penetration. There, it'll swell up and seal in the face of heat or fire. Dan's previous testing showed that it doesn't adhere well at all to an exposed surface. Using it as a fillet sealant will keep out fumes under normal circumstances, not sure how effective it would be in a fire.

I know nothing about CS-1900's behavior under the same circumstances. My application of CS-1900 was both as a fay sealant and as a fat fillet at firewall gaps in the corners. Dan, it would be interesting to learn the result of any test you do. I've been suspicious of those fillets ever since I applied them, though under normal conditions the stuff is staying put.
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  #22  
Old 05-13-2011, 05:17 PM
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schristo@mac.com schristo@mac.com is offline
 
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Default CS 1900 in a can... mix it yourself as needed

CS 1900 can be purchased as a two part mix in a can... easy to make a small batch as needed and pretty economical.

can be hard to find a source so here is a link http://www.sealpakcoinc.com/

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Last edited by schristo@mac.com : 05-13-2011 at 05:36 PM.
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  #23  
Old 05-13-2011, 05:27 PM
jay.pearlman jay.pearlman is offline
 
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Default 3M

I talked to 3M about their products. The 2000+ is good to 300F. It is meant for fireplaces and not for commercial construction. Under heat, it turns black. It can be replaced by scraping it off and adding more. May or may not be appropriate - 3M support was not comfortable with its use in our environment.
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  #24  
Old 05-13-2011, 05:38 PM
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DanH DanH is online now
 
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Lars, I earlier assumed Fire Barrier 2000+ to be intumescent but after studying the MSDS sheet I'm not so sure. Didn't think about it at the time, but my photo record of burn sessions doesn't show much (if any) swelling typical of intumescent products. And, the MSDS doesn't list vermiculite, just calcium carbonate. There are ways to make calcium carbonate products intumescent, so I dunno. I'll look more closely at that particular aspect when I heat some along with the CS1900.

FWIW the 3M latex fire caulks do list vermiculite.

The primary advantage of an intumescent product is the ability to swell and seal a hole left behind when something else burns away or melts. A good example would be a plastic pipe passing through a concrete wall in a building. The fire melts the pipe but the hole is immediately sealed. In the airplane app we have push-pull cables and wires passing through the firewall, but they are mostly steel or copper and won't entirely burn away in any case. So do we really need an intumescent?
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  #25  
Old 05-13-2011, 06:23 PM
Lars Lars is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schristo@mac.com View Post
CS 1900 can be purchased as a two part mix in a can... easy to make a small batch as needed and pretty economical.

can be hard to find a source so here is a link http://www.sealpakcoinc.com/
More good info. When I got mine, the only way I could find it was in SEM tubes. In fact I got it from Van's. They had it in stock but would not ship. I had business in Portland, so I stopped by & bought two tubes. Then brought it home by (ahem...) other means. It does stink to high heaven. It's been some time since I looked at the MSDS, but I remember that the contents made it obvious why it had become a hazmat substance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jay.pearlman View Post
I talked to 3M about their products. The 2000+ is good to 300F. It is meant for fireplaces and not for commercial construction. Under heat, it turns black. It can be replaced by scraping it off and adding more. May or may not be appropriate - 3M support was not comfortable with its use in our environment.
Maybe it's my cynical side, but I'm not surprised that 3M would be uncomfortable, though maybe I'm reading their response wrong. Interesting that's it's only good to 300F. My recollection was that it was dependent on whether or not it was exposed to direct flame. Thanks for calling 3M. I'm as guilty as anyone of discussing technical data with everyone except those who are likely best-qualified to have the answers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanH View Post
Lars, I earlier assumed Fire Barrier 2000+ to be intumescent but after studying the MSDS sheet I'm not so sure. Didn't think about it at the time, but my photo record of burn sessions doesn't show much (if any) swelling typical of intumescent products. And, the MSDS doesn't list vermiculite, just calcium carbonate. There are ways to make calcium carbonate products intumescent, so I dunno. I'll look more closely at that particular aspect when I heat some along with the CS1900.

FWIW the 3M latex fire caulks do list vermiculite.

The primary advantage of an intumescent product is the ability to swell and seal a hole left behind when something else burns away or melts. A good example would be a plastic pipe passing through a concrete wall in a building. The fire melts the pipe but the hole is immediately sealed. In the airplane app we have push-pull cables and wires passing through the firewall, but they are mostly steel or copper and won't entirely burn away in any case. So do we really need an intumescent?
Thanks, Dan. So far I've used the 2000+ on small stuff. I still have an unused tube of CS-1900 in the freezer at my hangar (you do have a mini fridge in your hangar, don't you?) awaiting installation of the top forward skin. The SEM cartridge contains lots more than I'll need, so I have the option of using the excess to seal the metal penetrations I have for electrical conductors (took the easy way out and used Safeair1 kits).
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  #26  
Old 05-13-2011, 07:53 PM
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DanH DanH is online now
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jay.pearlman View Post
I talked to 3M about their products. The 2000+ is good to 300F. It is meant for fireplaces and not for commercial construction. Under heat, it turns black. It can be replaced by scraping it off and adding more. May or may not be appropriate - 3M support was not comfortable with its use in our environment.
302F is a max service temperature, the long term static environment, not the firestop condition. The ASTM E814 firestop test subjects the sample (a combination of products in a specific construction) to radiant temperatures of 1500-2000F using a 5ft x 5ft furnace containing a 1.5 million BTU burner.

Another illustration; I previously mentioned the 3M latex fire caulks have a max service temperature of only 180F. They incorporate vermiculite, the classic intumescent firestop material, which doesn't even begin to expand until about 600F.

While you're thinking about it, consider the standard silicone firesleeve on your hoses. The CS1900 may be better...we'll see.
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Last edited by DanH : 05-26-2011 at 07:15 AM.
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  #27  
Old 05-23-2011, 03:52 PM
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dpansier dpansier is offline
 
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Default Cotronics Resbond 907GF

Many years ago I used Cotronics Resbond 907GF in a OEM application and recently tested it for sealing firewall penetrations and holes.

The product exhibits very good bonding qualities and adheres well to stainless steel.

I tested the product by simulating firewall small hole plugging and bonding by "gluing" two pieces of stainless steel together. After curing overnight I was able to break the bond by prying with a screwdriver but was impressed with the strength as I did no prep to SS.
I exposed the cured product to a torch and heated the SS/ Resbond to red hot condition, I observed no smoke or odor and after cooling the bond was just as strong.

Based on my previous OEM use and recent testing, I believe this product to be ideal for firewall use.

Data sheet link:
http://www.cotronics.com/vo/cotr/pdf/907gf.pdf
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  #28  
Old 05-24-2011, 07:35 PM
rv7charlie rv7charlie is offline
 
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If the HD stuff stocked at your local store really is inadequate, you might try a well stocked electrical supply house that serves commercial/industrial electricians. A lot of commercial building codes, like automotive regs, can make aviation requirements look wimpy.

I think the buzz word to look for is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intumescent

Charlie
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  #29  
Old 05-25-2011, 11:54 PM
SHIPCHIEF SHIPCHIEF is offline
 
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Here is what we use at work:
http://www.nelsonfirestop.com/
Now in our application, which is a US Coast Guard certified Ferry Boat, the Nelson Transit (mct) is what cables use to penetrate a fire boundary bulkhead.
Red rubber type blocks fill around the wires, in a flange collar welded into the bulkhead. Mineral wool and the red RTV like product are used on older transits.
This company specializes in the application refered to in this post, but mostly buildings and ships.
I think th CLK silicon caulk, and the Puttybar might be applicable to us?
I hope Dan H or someone who is good with MSDS and Tech sheets might find something here?
For myself; I have a RV-8 QB fuse, and have done nothing yet about 'structural fire protection'.
I have an experimental engine, so I know this is important.
Ground running is one thing; I can shut down, jump out and grab the garden hose or fire extinguisher, but now I have an N number and I've fitted the wings, so...I need to get serious about the risks involved.
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Last edited by SHIPCHIEF : 05-26-2011 at 12:24 AM.
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  #30  
Old 05-26-2011, 07:21 AM
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DanH DanH is online now
 
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A variety of popular sealants have arrived here, with one more on the way. I will give them **** (literally) and report, hopefully in a week or so.
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