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Sad Story

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Scott Hersha

Well Known Member
This story is meant to be a warning to those who didn’t know about what I am about to tell you, and an education to those who aren’t involved in something like this but may be considering it.

I have a recently completed RV8, my third RV build, and I have a co-owner/partnership LLC with two of us, to spread out the costs of ownership. I completed the build on this RV8 last April 24th and flew it on that day, after my FAA inspection. About a month later, my partner, a Delta pilot (I am a retired Delta pilot and knew and flew trips with this partner), decided to acquaint himself with our new airplane and went through the engine start procedure. He had been to Florida and got 5 hours of dual in an RV6 as required by our insurance company. I had gone through this start procedure with him and showed him what to look for on our Garmin G3X Tough EFIS. At this point I had already flown 16.7 hours in Phase 1. Unfortunately during his engine start, with the throttle set too high and he not being familiar, the engine revved and the tail came up making the prop contact the ground - prop strike! This resulted in a new prop, and sending the engine to my engine builder, JB Aircraft Engine Service in Sebring, FL. My partner felt very bad about his mistake, and ended up selling his half of the airplane to another Delta friend. This friend went out to Houston and got two days of training with Bruce Bohannon in his dual control RV8. That was in the fall of last year. Things went along well until recently. My new partner had about 30 hours in our RV8 as of Sun N Fun this year. I had the plane on display at SNF at JB Aircrft Engines exhibit, and I entered it in the judging. I won an award - Outstanding Wormanship Award - I wasn’t the only one to receive this award. My new partner came to FL for the last day of the show, and flew home with me. I flew to Nashville, where I hopped out to spend time with family, and my partner took the RV on home to Cincinnati. Unfortunately, when he landed (calm winds) he ground looped it and ended up off the runway in soft wet dirt - on his nose. The engine is off, once again, and will be returned to JB for the tear down inspection - again.... New prop, again, all accessories inspected/overhauled, again, and huge amounts of work for me, who built the airplane and have done this whole redo thing twice now, without ever having damaged any airplane in 47 years of flying and 30 years of airplane ownership.

What’s this long story got to do with anything??? Well, it has to do with insurance and something that some of you may not have considered - I didn’t. Our original insurance policy is still in effect and will renew on April 24. They increased our policy from $2000 ($130K Hull) to $5100 because of the first claim last year. Now, after the second accident that just happened last Saturday, our new renew policy has increased to $10,600. On my last RV8, that I owned by myself, my insurance cost $1200. I am not OK with 10.6K. I asked my insurance agent if I could be the only named pilot, and what that would cost, since I’ve never had an accident or claim. Answer - no difference. In fact, if I decided to buy my partner out and go it alone, the insurance policy doesn’t change. And get this - another insurance company won’t even give me any insurance for at least a year, maybe longer, even if I sell this airplane and buy a different one by myself without my partner. It seems my current insurance carrier is stuck with me/us as if they have some sort of code that requires this, and other carriers have placed a cloud over my head and won’t cover me... and I’m not the one that caused the claim, and I never have had a claim!! Basically, I won’t be able to fly again for at least a year, unless I want to pay the exorbitant rates being asked by my current insurance carrier, which is my only choice. My partner will have that cloud over his head for at least 3 years. That $10,600 policy is really the “I don’t want to insure you” price. And it won’t go away for at least 3 years with this carrier, even if it’s just me without my co-owner.

Clearly, I’m not very good at picking partners. I guess 25K+ hours of flight time isn’t what I should be looking for. Answer - I will never have a partner in an airplane again. I will be listing my beautiful, award winning, Garmin IFR equipped, powerful, modern airplane for sale, because I refuse to pay $10.6K for insurance when I should be paying 1200, and I won’t let the airplane sit for a year or so while I try to overcome this shadow that is following me around.

If you have a partner in your airplane you should know that if he has an accident, it will affect you, even if you divorce yourself from that relationship. If you have a friend listed on your policy as a named pilot, and he has a history maybe unrelated to his performance, it may affect you if he flys your plane and has an accident. Your carrier may not cover this circumstance. I have 3 RV friends that have me listed as a named pilot on their policy. I will be checking with their insurance carrier to make sure I am indeed covered. I may not be because of the mistakes that my partners have made.

I’m bummed!!
 
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Ouch Scott - just ouch!!

Partnerships and insurance are something we have a little experince with - fortunately, we had no accidents, but essentially, it helped drive our partner out of the airplane. This was on our Dream Tundra, and the other partner was the one that started it. Ufortunately, he was low time, and by the time the airplane was finished (he worked on it ten years, we joined in the last year to get it finished), he was 70+, and essentially uninsurable. And while its easy to decide to go liability only if it is just you in the airplane, having a partnership really means either every partner keeps the value of the airplane handy in case they break it, or you have to have insurance.

So sorry to hear what has happened in your case - insurance and partnerships are FULL of pitfalls.
 
Sorry to hear about this. Very frustrating just reading it; can only imagine how you feel. I appreciate you sharing it though. I had been thinking about finding a partner or two for my 6A instead of selling it once the 10 is done. This story has pretty much killed that thought and I appreciate the opportunity to learn from your misfortune.

Larry
 
Exception or rule

I would think that the first thing that needs to be established here is if the situation of the OP is the exception or the rule. Are we indeed responsible for the sins of our aircraft partners?

Perhaps one of our Gallagher friends can respond.
 
Sounds like a partnership contract need to include the fact that any insurance increase due to plane damage is covered 100% by the one that did the damage, for the duration that it is held over the head of either partner.
 
Oh boy that hurt just reading it!
One couldn't dream that stuff up for a fictional novel unless I read it to be true!
Insurance has always been a grey area until you make a claim, then it's very colourful! I've heard of other ugly stories so am not too surprised sadly -:(

When I first started driving planes 40 years ago I was part of a 7 member syndicate in a C150 just to get the drivers certificate, I was the only one to complete my ticket to go on driving planes as a career, it was a very stressful time in a group of owners, I swore then I'd never do it again! I went without my own plane for many years due cost till I retired from heavy metal driving. Now I rarely let anyone a anywhere near my RV8 never lone drive it!
There is no greater feeling than opening the hangar doors full knowing that shiny looking plane in front of you is YOURS only!:)
 
The morale of this story is airline pilots are not very good at stick and rudder. No offense but it?s true. Managing a B-777 is not the same as hand flying a airplane.
I have a neighbor that drives the B-777 and he agrees with me.
 
The morale of this story is airline pilots are not very good at stick and rudder. No offense but it?s true. Managing a B-777 is not the same as hand flying a airplane.
I have a neighbor that drives the B-777 and he agrees with me.

That couldn't be a more incorrect statement if I ever read one!
I've got thousands of hours on heavy metal and all sorts of high perf multi machines yet funnily enough I can drive my RV8!:confused:
 
here we go...
Retired Airbus Flight Manager, I agree that the thousands of hours spent watching George (or whatever name you give to that A/P) don't compare to flying a light single tailwheeler. The advantage those hours bring are being at ease in the flying environment, radio, procedures, and maybe some professionalism... but an airline "pilot" remains a human being and is also bound to commit mistakes.

I've also had my share of partnership stories which led me to bite the financial bullet of being sole owner of my plane.

Kinda strange from the insurance only linking the aircraft, not the individual, to the premium increase.
 
Just Wow!

Hi Scott,

That is a sad story, indeed! I heard about the first prop strike. The second is new to me. Have you priced a liability only policy? With only you flying the airplane you could consider being self-insured for hull damage and any incident you may have that costs less than $10K to repair would be less than the premium for hull insurance. This assumed that they haven't priced your liability coverage out of reach.

I hope you find a resolution. You shouldn't be grounded

(This reminds me of the time my sister wrecked dad's car and he took the keys away from both of us. He said it was just a matter of time until I wrecked it again. He wasn't an insurance salesman so I don't know where he got that logic.)
 
I hate to hear this. 47 yrs flying and 30 yrs ownership and never damaged an airplane is a perfect record. the trouble came with the partnerships. I hope you find a way out of this mess and continue flying. too much talent and skill to put on a shelf.

I am reminded how every start, every takeoff, every landing, every maintenance action is critically important.
 
I wonder if a way around a situation like this would be in some way the plane is like part of a flying club business.... but the club only has a couple members and each must carry their own insurance. Then if something happened seems the other is insulated from the actions of the other??? You get the point. Partners but not on paper.
 
Not sure about the flying club idea, but I?ll run it by our local airport ?experts? this weekend. Somebody mentioned running it by the folks at Gallagher. That?s what I?ve been doing, and their help has been valuable. After we got the renewal estimate from Starr of $5100 I went looking. Since my new partner and I had never had a claim, Shanna at Gallagher found us a policy with Old Republic for $2000 - cheaper than the original Starr policy when we had zero claims and the plane hadn?t even flown yet. Unfortunately, when my new partner had his accident last week, Old Republic got wind of it within hours and called Shanna and canceled the offer - the policy wasn?t due to start until April 24th. I talked to Shanna yesterday to see what my options are. She said no other carrier will touch it until the claim is closed, and even then will most likely wait at least of year before quoting anything. Starr will hang on to us, maybe because they have to, at the high premium rate. I?ve had 4 RV?s over the last 20 years and this is the first one that I?ve had a partner on. That won?t happen again. I?ll either buy my partner out, he will buy me out, or we will sell it. This is difficult because this is my best build yet. I am 66 and I don?t think I have another one in me.... This was to be my retirement airplane. I can still fly it, but somebody is going to have to pay Starr $10,600 for the first year at least. Not sure what would happen after that. I won?t go to year 2 unless I?m sole owner and our LLC is dissolved.
 
Insurance

How about this idea, sell the plane to a new ( owner ) partner. Then have him put insurance on the plane with open pilot policy? I have a open pilot policy on my planes. Anyone with 500 total time, and time in type can fly it.
 
Really?

"...The morale of this story is airline pilots are not very good at stick and rudder..."

Really?

What an arrogant comment. I am hoping you have the skills to back it up...

Just remember, accidents CAN and DO happen to everyone.

As far as the insurance racket goes, it doesn't apply to just airplanes. Several years ago, I had a lightning strike on my house. It was irrefutable as it struck the air conditioning compressor and followed the line wiring into the house. It fried the dishwasher and one laptop, as well as the air conditioning compressor. Total claim ~$4000. One year later, a tornado touched down on the neighbors property. It was close enough to knock 4 trees over in my back yard. My policy had a "$1000 for storm damage tree removal" feature, so I used it.

The insurance company paid the two claims...then dropped me as "high risk". Realize that I had been with them for more than a decade with no claims. That "high risk" tag must be communicated across the companies, because I had to get insurance from Lloyds, and it was expensive.

I guess I should have known where the lightning would strike and the tornado would touch down before I built the house...what a racket...
 
Sorry to read your tragic story!

Take your time putting it back into service. When I had my prop strike years ago due to someone leaving a trailer in the middle of a taxiway, on the backside of a hill, it took a year and a half to get it flying again. By then, my insurance was on the way down and after three years from the date of the incident, it was back to "normal".

Good luck!
 
As I was reading this, I literally starting cringing and shaking my head. So sorry this happened. Partnerships can ruin friendship for sure if the partner at fault does not completely take FULL responsibility. What that means is that you should be paying half of insurance prior to the accident and your partner should be paying the rest. I get that he is the 2nd partner and the rates already went up but you should be paying 1/2 of the rate that he agreed to and he should man up and pay the rest. Other than the inconvenience of you being without an airplane while it's getting fixed, you should not be affected financially. That's just horrible and I'm sorry to hear that you are in this position.
 
...Partnerships can ruin friendship for sure if the partner at fault does not completely take FULL responsibility. What that means is that you should be paying half of insurance prior to the accident and your partner should be paying the rest. I get that he is the 2nd partner and the rates already went up but you should be paying 1/2 of the rate that he agreed to and he should man up and pay the rest...
Yes, this exactly.
 
Wow. What a horrible outcome. I am shocked to hear that your partner?s mistakes hurt you after the divorce. How is that justified? I think I would speak to AOPA?s legal team about that one.

The RV series are such docile taildraggers, to loop one in calm winds is beyond ridiculous. Your partner should hand you the three years of increased insurance costs.

I hope we see you at SnF again next year. The offer stands.
 
"...The morale of this story is airline pilots are not very good at stick and rudder..."

I also disagree with this comment, even though I?ve gone through a couple prop strikes with airline pilot partners. I am an airline pilot (Retired) and I consider myself a pretty good stick and rudder aviator. On the first one, the pilot hadn?t even taxied the airplane yet. He never even left the parking spot where he was starting the engine! My second partner is willing to do the right thing and pay the increased cost of the insurance - I just talked to him. I just need to decide if I want to continue in a partnership, and I don?t think I do. My original comment about picking partners with 25K hours was meant to mean - ?don?t assume anything just because someone has a tremendous amount of flight time?. This type of flying is new to them and there is a learning curve. I didn?t realize the ramifications of the insurance problems that arise when there is a claim. Now I do, and hopefully a few others on the forum do too now. Spreading out fixed costs in a partnership may not be as good as it seems at first.
 
Sell the plane to a trusted friend, wife, kid etc. Insure it under their name and you fly it under the open pilot clause. My insurance has me named and any pilot with 500tt, 100tw and 25 in make and model is automatically insured. Do this for a year and then “buy” it back. Don’t let them defeat you so easily. My premium on $75k value is $954/yr.
 
Agree with others that the partner "at fault" needs to cover all of the premium increase. You should not have to pay a penny more than you were before the claim.

Short of that, dump the partners and fly liability only for a while, or see what a "not in motion" policy will cost. Seems like your spotless record makes you a good candidate to gamble on not being the cause of a claim.
 
This is real sad and rather unfortunate. I am glad that all parties involved in the accident are safe and not physically harmed.

Hope they step up and accept responsibility for the financial injury, thru higher premium, that they have caused you, even if they are not part of the partnership anymore. This is what a responsible person does or should do.
 
Kinda strange from the insurance only linking the aircraft, not the individual, to the premium increase.

I would guess that the insurance company is penalizing the policy holder, not the aircraft, as they try to recoup their payout and reduce further risk.
 
Scott,

This is a very sobering account, and I'm very sorry it's gone down this way for you. Definitely a wake-up call and a good warning of caution. Sounds like your partner is a stand-up guy and doing what's right. I hope you find a good insurance solution as well. The other principle in our airshow team is in a consortium of several airplanes and owners, and I'll ask him about his insurance coverage(s). Perhaps there is a nugget in there you could use. Back atcha after we talk this weekend.

As for the airline pilot comment...its noise in a much more important thread. Let's be better than over-generalizing and finger pointing. Tribalism like that doesn't build strength within our pilot community. For every airline pilot that may be weak in GA planes due to time away from that environment, there are 1000s that benefit, and are stronger pilots...on the job and in their RV or other GA plane...from the best training environment and highest safety standards in the world. Same is true in GA-only pilots...some fly bare mins each year, while many fly their keesters off, and are some of the most current and solid pilots around. So this airline guy, with a 0.96:1 landings-to-flight time ratio over 42 years, is raising the BS flag on that comment!

Good luck on the resolution Scott!

Cheers,
Bob
 
Crud! So sorry to hear this. I am not surprised. The thought of insurance when I researched this has at times very nearly stopped me from building and sell this rv8 project. Very sad to hear this. So sorry...I am envious of your RV-8's Wish I could see them. Would love to meet you one day.
Don't give up...surely there is an attorney out there that can help you.
Appreciate you sharing this. I was considering forming a not for profit airplane club for Experimental plans and owners only, but the thought of insurance....ughh. Sad.
 
"...The morale of this story is airline pilots are not very good at stick and rudder..."

Really?

What an arrogant comment. I am hoping you have the skills to back it up...

Just remember, accidents CAN and DO happen to everyone.

As far as the insurance racket goes, it doesn't apply to just airplanes. Several years ago, I had a lightning strike on my house. It was irrefutable as it struck the air conditioning compressor and followed the line wiring into the house. It fried the dishwasher and one laptop, as well as the air conditioning compressor. Total claim ~$4000. One year later, a tornado touched down on the neighbors property. It was close enough to knock 4 trees over in my back yard. My policy had a "$1000 for storm damage tree removal" feature, so I used it.

The insurance company paid the two claims...then dropped me as "high risk". Realize that I had been with them for more than a decade with no claims. That "high risk" tag must be communicated across the companies, because I had to get insurance from Lloyds, and it was expensive.

I guess I should have known where the lightning would strike and the tornado would touch down before I built the house...what a racket...

This is very commonplace. I tend to evaluate the cost of any damage and likely rate hicks or cancellation possibility (including incremental cost of future opressive rates) before processing a claim. Then its a simple math computation to decide whether the outcome of a claim is net positive or negative. We're lucky. In our state it is illegal for ins companies to raise rates or cancel due to claims arising from storm damage. We had major hail damage last year.

Larry
 
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Oh Brother

The morale of this story is airline pilots are not very good at stick and rudder. No offense but it?s true. Managing a B-777 is not the same as hand flying a airplane.
I have a neighbor that drives the B-777 and he agrees with me.

I just wish there was an ?eye roll? button.. for you and your neighbor!
 
The morale of this story is airline pilots are not very good at stick and rudder. No offense but it?s true. Managing a B-777 is not the same as hand flying a airplane.
I have a neighbor that drives the B-777 and he agrees with me.

Making pretty broad strokes there.... I seem to handle my 7 and E175 just fine..
 
Sell the plane to a trusted friend, wife, kid etc. Insure it under their name and you fly it under the open pilot clause. My insurance has me named and any pilot with 500tt, 100tw and 25 in make and model is automatically insured. Do this for a year and then “buy” it back. Don’t let them defeat you so easily. My premium on $75k value is $954/yr.

HOLD IT, not so fast, you would still be flying without insurance for you !!

Say for example that you insure it in your Uncle Charlie's name and you fly it under the Open Pilot waiver. Sounds good up to now but then YOU have an accident. Oh Oh, now your Uncle Charlie is covered and will get paid completely BUT YOU could be sued to recover everything they paid Uncle Charlie PLUS their expenses !!!

The only people really covered are named pilots so the Open Pilot waiver is only to cover the insured interest not the additional pilot flying it. This is called

Subrogation :
A term describing a legal right held by most insurance carriers to legally pursue a third party that caused an insurance loss to the insured. This is done in order to recover the amount of the claim paid by the insurance carrier to the insured for the loss


That's why they came up with Renter's Insurance, same principal for anyone renting even though flight schools have their own insurance.

And before anyone says then rent it from the named pilot, most insurance doesn't let the named pilot rent it without paying an out the wazoo high premium.

I'm not an insurance expert but have owned all kinds of aircraft for decades and have seen how this has developed. Way back it wasn't like that but now it's the norm not the exception.
 
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What an unbelievable story, I?m very sorry, to me it sounds like a very bad joke or a big mistake.
Just an idea, don?t know if it was mentioned already as I havn?t read the whole thread, here in Europe there are a lot of aircraft flying with an N-Number on the tail and I know several of them are insured by european companies.
10.000$ is a sign to look somewhere else isn?t it?
Maybe you can ask some of the companies here, just to get some information.
If you need some names, just let me know.
 
Partnerships can be tough, and this is a great example of what can go wrong.

But...

... My second partner is willing to do the right thing and pay the increased cost of the insurance - I just talked to him....

Maybe the thing to do is to give yourself a couple of days to let the feelings about this moderate a bit. Unless totally objectionable, go forward with that approach?

Some of the ideas about "selling" the aircraft to someone else and then flying under an open pilot clause strike me as asking for a lot of trouble were a mishap to occur - I don't think I'd go in that direction.
 
Maybe the thing to do is to give yourself a couple of days to let the feelings about this moderate a bit. Unless totally objectionable, go forward with that approach?

Great idea. Take some time to reflect before making a rash decision.

Some of the ideas about "selling" the aircraft to someone else and then flying under an open pilot clause strike me as asking for a lot of trouble were a mishap to occur - I don't think I'd go in that direction.

Yep, bad idea. You might have been writing your comment at the same I was, (happens to me all the time) see post #32 above.
 
This story is meant to be a warning to those who didn?t know about what I am about to tell you, and an education to those who aren?t involved in something like this but may be considering it.

I have a recently completed RV8, my third RV build, and I have a co-owner/partnership LLC with two of us, to spread out the costs of ownership. I completed the build on this RV8 last April 24th and flew it on that day, after my FAA inspection. About a month later, my partner, a Delta pilot (I am a retired Delta pilot and knew and flew trips with this partner), decided to acquaint himself with our new airplane and went through the engine start procedure. He had been to Florida and got 5 hours of dual in an RV6 as required by our insurance company. I had gone through this start procedure with him and showed him what to look for on our Garmin G3X Tough EFIS. At this point I had already flown 16.7 hours in Phase 1. Unfortunately during his engine start, with the throttle set too high and he not being familiar, the engine revved and the tail came up making the prop contact the ground - prop strike! This resulted in a new prop, and sending the engine to my engine builder, JB Aircraft Engine Service in Sebring, FL. My partner felt very bad about his mistake, and ended up selling his half of the airplane to another Delta friend. This friend went out to Houston and got two days of training with Bruce Bohannon in his dual control RV8. That was in the fall of last year. Things went along well until recently. My new partner had about 30 hours in our RV8 as of Sun N Fun this year. I had the plane on display at SNF at JB Aircrft Engines exhibit, and I entered it in the judging. I won an award - Outstanding Wormanship Award - I wasn?t the only one to receive this award. My new partner came to FL for the last day of the show, and flew home with me. I flew to Nashville, where I hopped out to spend time with family, and my partner took the RV on home to Cincinnati. Unfortunately, when he landed (calm winds) he ground looped it and ended up off the runway in soft wet dirt - on his nose. The engine is off, once again, and will be returned to JB for the tear down inspection - again.... New prop, again, all accessories inspected/overhauled, again, and huge amounts of work for me, who built the airplane and have done this whole redo thing twice now, without ever having damaged any airplane in 47 years of flying and 30 years of airplane ownership.

What?s this long story got to do with anything??? Well, it has to do with insurance and something that some of you may not have considered - I didn?t. Our original insurance policy is still in effect and will renew on April 24. They increased our policy from $2000 ($130K Hull) to $5100 because of the first claim last year. Now, after the second accident that just happened last Saturday, our new renew policy has increased to $10,600. On my last RV8, that I owned by myself, my insurance cost $1200. I am not OK with 10.6K. I asked my insurance agent if I could be the only named pilot, and what that would cost, since I?ve never had an accident or claim. Answer - no difference. In fact, if I decided to buy my partner out and go it alone, the insurance policy doesn?t change. And get this - another insurance company won?t even give me any insurance for at least a year, maybe longer, even if I sell this airplane and buy a different one by myself without my partner. It seems my current insurance carrier is stuck with me/us as if they have some sort of code that requires this, and other carriers have placed a cloud over my head and won?t cover me... and I?m not the one that caused the claim, and I never have had a claim!! Basically, I won?t be able to fly again for at least a year, unless I want to pay the exorbitant rates being asked by my current insurance carrier, which is my only choice. My partner will have that cloud over his head for at least 3 years. That $10,600 policy is really the ?I don?t want to insure you? price. And it won?t go away for at least 3 years with this carrier, even if it?s just me without my co-owner.

Clearly, I?m not very good at picking partners. I guess 25K+ hours of flight time isn?t what I should be looking for. Answer - I will never have a partner in an airplane again. I will be listing my beautiful, award winning, Garmin IFR equipped, powerful, modern airplane for sale, because I refuse to pay $10.6K for insurance when I should be paying 1200, and I won?t let the airplane sit for a year or so while I try to overcome this shadow that is following me around.

If you have a partner in your airplane you should know that if he has an accident, it will affect you, even if you divorce yourself from that relationship. If you have a friend listed on your policy as a named pilot, and he has a history maybe unrelated to his performance, it may affect you if he flys your plane and has an accident. Your carrier may not cover this circumstance. I have 3 RV friends that have me listed as a named pilot on their policy. I will be checking with their insurance carrier to make sure I am indeed covered. I may not be because of the mistakes that my partners have made.

I?m bummed!!

I told my insurance broker about your story. She got me a great policy/premium combo for my RV-8 but where she really shined was when she got my gyroplane insurance down from $10,000 to $4,200 and is very knowledgeable when it comes to situations like this.

I PM'd you her info and what she recommends.
 
Airline Pilots

The late great Leo Laudenslager was an airline pilot. For those who just woke up from a 50 year nap Leo was World Aerobatic Champion in 1980. US National Aerobatic Champion 7 times.
Some of the worst and some of the best aerobatic "students" (I prefer the term trainees) that I ever flew with were airline pilots.
It is just not a good idea to categorize.
 
Averages

In any group of people,pilots in general,or airline pilots,50percent of that population are below average!It has to be.So there are a LOT of people,in whatever group,that are below average in their performance!This realization has changed my outlook about a lot of people.
 
Not sure about the flying club idea, but I?ll run it by our local airport ?experts? this weekend. Somebody mentioned running it by the folks at Gallagher. That?s what I?ve been doing, and their help has been valuable. After we got the renewal estimate from Starr of $5100 I went looking. Since my new partner and I had never had a claim, Shanna at Gallagher found us a policy with Old Republic for $2000 - cheaper than the original Starr policy when we had zero claims and the plane hadn?t even flown yet. Unfortunately, when my new partner had his accident last week, Old Republic got wind of it within hours and called Shanna and canceled the offer - the policy wasn?t due to start until April 24th. I talked to Shanna yesterday to see what my options are. She said no other carrier will touch it until the claim is closed, and even then will most likely wait at least of year before quoting anything. Starr will hang on to us, maybe because they have to, at the high premium rate. I?ve had 4 RV?s over the last 20 years and this is the first one that I?ve had a partner on. That won?t happen again. I?ll either buy my partner out, he will buy me out, or we will sell it. This is difficult because this is my best build yet. I am 66 and I don?t think I have another one in me.... This was to be my retirement airplane. I can still fly it, but somebody is going to have to pay Starr $10,600 for the first year at least. Not sure what would happen after that. I won?t go to year 2 unless I?m sole owner and our LLC is dissolved.


Good News Update :

Spoke with my broker and she said she spoke directly with one of her underwriters and he wants to know more !

I'll PM you the info to contact her.
 
HOLD IT, not so fast, you would still be flying without insurance for you !!

Say for example that you insure it in your Uncle Charlie's name and you fly it under the Open Pilot waiver. Sounds good up to now but then YOU have an accident. Oh Oh, now your Uncle Charlie is covered and will get paid completely BUT YOU could be sued to recover everything they paid Uncle Charlie PLUS their expenses !!!

The only people really covered are named pilots so the Open Pilot waiver is only to cover the insured interest not the additional pilot flying it. This is called

Subrogation :
A term describing a legal right held by most insurance carriers to legally pursue a third party that caused an insurance loss to the insured. This is done in order to recover the amount of the claim paid by the insurance carrier to the insured for the loss


That's why they came up with Renter's Insurance, same principal for anyone renting even though flight schools have their own insurance.

And before anyone says then rent it from the named pilot, most insurance doesn't let the named pilot rent it without paying an out the wazoo high premium.

I'm not an insurance expert but have owned all kinds of aircraft for decades and have seen how this has developed. Way back it wasn't like that but now it's the norm not the exception.

I definitely would not file a claim unless it was by a widow, but most airports require proof of insurance to rent a hangar. This will satisfy this requirement. If you are flying from a private field, go without insurance for the year until all this mess resets. I would not sell something i built with my own hands because of an insurance company. My plane is paid for with no leins, if you have a loan on the plane, then this may not be an option. If you wreck it, the bank gets paid and the insurance company would come after you for damages.
 
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So Sorry

Scott
I am so sorry to hear about your situation.

My wife and I really enjoyed talking to you and your wife at our Fish Fry Fly-in.

I really liked your RV8.

I want to wish you best. Hopefully, everything will work out.

I know Traci and I would love to see you again in September.

Good Luck
Darren & Traci Kerns
RV7 N599DT
 
Sorry to hear about your partnership challenges, but some really great information came out of this thread. Best wishes to getting it all back in order!
 
If you are flying from a private field, go without insurance for the year until all this mess resets.

While I am all for self-insuraning my own planes damage, I am not comfortable with liability. I even have concerns that the $1M of liability coverage could be inadequate in some circumstances. This is a pretty bold recommendation. Someone could wind up with all of their assets, other than their home, lost in a judgement.

I also question whether or not someone meeting the open pilot clause is afforded liability coverage under the owner's policy. I always assumed they did, but now I am questioning that. Maybe Gallagher can answer that.

Larry
 
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I also question whether or not someone meeting the open pilot clause is afforded liability coverage under the owner's policy. I always assumed they did, but now I am questioning that. Maybe Gallagher can answer that.

Larry

In fact I asked Gallagher that very question some time ago. The answer was ?no?, the open-pilot pilot had no coverage, while the owner did. But as a practical manner, the owner was also named in a lawsuit virtually 100% of the time (plantiff?s attorneys always follow the money), so the insurance company would pay out, up to its limit, any judgement. So the question is, would the insurance company turn around and sue the pilot flying, to recover its losses? The answer was, ?In most cases, no. The cost of bringing legal action, or the limited assets of the pilot flying, generally made ?no? the best business decision. However, the insurance company did have the right to sue, if they chose to do so.?
 
The morale of this story is airline pilots are not very good at stick and rudder. No offense but it’s true. Managing a B-777 is not the same as hand flying a airplane.
I have a neighbor that drives the B-777 and he agrees with me.

I bet you're one of the cool dudes that walk around the terminals with John Wayne swagger. Wearing a totally cool AOPA hat. Then. . .

When you get on the jet, you poke your head in the cockpit and say,

"Hey Skipper, if you need any help up here, I'll be in 32B."

Then, smack your teeth, give a disrespectful 2 finger salute pointing to your super cool pilot hat and wink as you strut back to your seat.

We always sit there and talk about how great it is for a guy like you to be here. . . NOT.:rolleyes:
 
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How about this idea, sell the plane to a new ( owner ) partner. Then have him put insurance on the plane with open pilot policy? I have a open pilot policy on my planes. Anyone with 500 total time, and time in type can fly it.

That insurance only covers you not the pilot flying your plane. Please read comment #32 in this thread.
 
...So the question is, would the insurance company turn around and sue the pilot flying, to recover its losses? The answer was, “In most cases, no. The cost of bringing legal action, or the limited assets of the pilot flying, generally made ‘no’ the best business decision. However, the insurance company did have the right to sue, if they chose to do so.”

That reply would be ok if the pilot flying was a newbie but from what I’ve seen pilots who fly RVs and can qualify for open pilot coverage have a little deeper pockets so if the insurance sees that the pilot flying has assets then you can bet your ASSetts you’ll get sued to recover what they paid out.
 
I bet you're one of the cool dudes that walk around the terminals with John Wayne swagger. Wearing a totally cool AOPA hat. Then. . .

When you get on the jet, you poke your head in the cockpit and say,

"Hey Skipper, if you need any help up here, I'll be in 32B."

AOPA hat? The pilot watch is the giveaway.

And I always get a window seat so I have situation awareness, just in case both crew members ate the fish. ;-)
 
The late great Leo Laudenslager was an airline pilot. For those who just woke up from a 50 year nap Leo was World Aerobatic Champion in 1980. US National Aerobatic Champion 7 times.
Some of the worst and some of the best aerobatic "students" (I prefer the term trainees) that I ever flew with were airline pilots.
It is just not a good idea to categorize.

As was Debby Rihn Harvey. Stories like this are why I personally have stuck with the quote. ? the only ship that won?t sail is a partnership ?. YMMV.
 
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