EAA Judging - let's shed a little light

Hey Folks,

I've received quite a few phone calls and emails regarding the 'other' thread and wanted to offer a couple simple thoughts that may enlighten a few of you. I also had a couple conversations with the OP.

Original thread was closed but can be found here:
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=116717

Disclaimer, these comments are mine and mine only and I do NOT represent the EAA or the Judging staff as I make these comments.

Bob Collins, thank you for your kind words buddy .

OK, as stated in a few of the posts the EAA Judges are volunteers. They come from a very well rounded field of aircraft builders, inspectors, mechanics, etc. A few of the judges are previous award winners. They work very hard all week long and do their very best to carefully consider each and every airplane that is being judged. They do not get paid and some of them have been volunteering for over 30 years. I always wondered what went on in the Homebuilt Judges trailer. All I can say is that I have found every single judge to be extremely professional and extremely fair and as unbiased as humanly possible…..with no exceptions……period.

This may be hard for some of you to believe but there is no perfect airplane . Each has its flaws, even the top winners. Each of the Judges finds something good and something that could be improved and scores accordingly.

I’ve had many of my projects judged at Oshkosh over the years and have learned a little along the way. Some of the Judges will offer suggestions if asked, others will not. Some owners are grateful for the suggestions, others get very upset. The Judging staff does not provide a list of discrepancies, this would take forever with some airplanes and some owners would be extremely offended upon discovering that their pride and joy wasn’t as perfect as they ‘thought’ it was . If you want to know how to improve simply ask the judges as they come by….that’s what I did. Then, make the suggested changes and you will score better next time .

In response the original post and the thread about the cotter pin missing and all of the ‘fuss’ that was generated: It is my understanding that the owner of the airplane had spent some 11 years building his dream. While at the show it was decided that some of the cotter pins/hardware were to be changed out for more ‘attractive/better’ hardware. Seemingly, during the change out a passerby saw the pins(s) not fully installed and snapped a few photos. Sometime later pics were posted the pics on the internet suggesting that the plane was not airworthy and should not have won an award…..let the speculation begin, and rain on the parade of someones greatest achievement without the facts .

Hopefully this will shed a little light on this ‘issue’ and folks here will know that the rule book wasn’t thrown out of the window and will ease up on the demand for a full investigation.

I tell folks all the time, there is no shame in not winning at the big show. And remember that you can always bring your plane back and show it again to try and win an award (or win a ‘higher’ award).

Thanks to all of you that work so hard on your beautiful projects and are willing to share them with the folks at Oshkosh.

Back to your regularly scheduled program and have a nice day .

DWebster said:

I believe this deserves an explanation from EAA.
I know the judges are volunteers, I've read the rules for judging. Look at the judging tree line 0 and line 1. I know we are a small community so this isn't politically correct. But...

If anyone of us had done a preflight on the 2014 Grand Champion winner at OSH, we would of taken it back to the shop and fixed the airworthiness issue that could of been catastrophic. Fortunately it was found, reported and I'm sure it was corrected. So how did this airplane win an award?
Once again look at the rules, its very clear.

Just like many of you, I'm an aircraft builder on my second RV-8 {sloow build} and hope to have it judged some day at OSH. But what's the point if rule book is thrown out the window, do the judges have the discretion to only apply certain rules of the rule book? Looks that way!!

I'm not saying EAA should reshuffle the awards, it is what it is, I would like to know that we all have a fair shot, that this is looked at objectively and changes put in place where needed.

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n700jl said:

Everyone who is building an RV and is preparing it for judging needs to know what happened this year. If you do not know what I am talking about shoot me an email and I will explain. Thank you!

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I am one person who benefitted from Rick's generosity at Oshkosh 2013. My just "finished" RV-8 was still really rough looking and the fiberglass was far from looking right. But I wanted to take it to Oshkosh anyway, so I swallowed my pride and went. Of course, I did not enter the airplane for judging since it was certainly not yet "finished" (still isn't!)

Nevertheless, I met Rick at the HBC corn roast and while our daughters played together, he was kind enough to drop what he was doing and give me some very useful pointers. For a few minutes Rick wasn't wearing his judge hat--he was just being a good neighbor. I learned that Rick has a great eye for detail, and that he truly cares about sharing his craftsmanship gifts with others. I am confident that all of the other volunteer judges have the same good hearts and that they enjoy giving back to their community.

Thanks for the information Rick. A lot of videos are made about flying, but it would be just as interesting to me to see a walk around pointing out various things relevant to judging on an RV. Just an idea for the videographers out there.

Regardless of an apparent "professional" thrust by the EAA, the heart and soul of EAA are the volunteers. Volunteers are rewarded by appreciation - - so Thanks for your time and expertise!

Hopefully, you can give my plane a walk around next year.

Rick, you are the most RV knowledgable and helpful guy I've ever met. I didn't know what to expect going into judging but you took the time to explain my mistakes (leaving cowl on Monday-Wednesday) and pointed out a humbling number of my shortcomings as a builder. I still managed to squeak into the awards...but thanks to the time you spent answering my newbie questions....we will see if next year shows some improvement.

Thanks for all that you do and the knowledge you so happily share while doing it. EAA is lucky to have you.

Thanks Rick

I have to echo the comments about Rick. He has been very helpful to me and I always enjoy talking to him.

When I learned about Rick becoming a Judge, my first thought was, "that's like putting Dracula in charge of the blood bank."

The judging has to be an arduous task. Thanks to all for volunteering.

I think part of the problem at least from my perspective is that we go in not knowing exactly how to present our airplanes for the judges. I learned from experience that the judges may show at any time through the course of the week. No problem there I have no issue hanging with the airplane but should the cowl be on-off? Canopy open-closed? I was told after judging that if everything was right under the cowl it would be a plus to have the cowl off, but my assumption would be that they would like to see the fit and fair when it is all together and closed up as well but it would be a lot of work to do all of that several times during the week. It would kind of be nice to know how to be properly prepared for the judges. ( Even as I write this I know there is no easy answer)

I think the Judges do a terrific job overall. I was lucky enough to walk away with a workmanship award for my Rocket last year. I knew going in that I had a few minor things that needed to be corrected even to my standards for a better award. I still know that if I am willing to wreck and repair some areas I can probably do better it just depends on how far you are willing to go to move up another notch.

I found Rick to be very forthcoming with information regarding areas for improvement. Most of them I knew about before he pointed them out. I considered all the pointers constructive criticism and never to took offense to any of it.
I do still consider making the changes just to see but I am having so much fun flying its hard.

Hang in there Rick, you guys do a great job!

Ryan

I think there should be one new category for judging - First Time Builders. With perhaps more, but less prestigious awards.

Thank you Rick and thank you for the feedback last year when you approached me as I was getting ready to leave.

Rick saw me packing up and stopped over to discuss a few issues he found with my 7a. One issue could even potentially have been a safety of flight issue but most were pointers if I wanted to come back and do it again. Very helpful and very welcome!

I did almost everything he suggested except indexing the fuel tank screws! I didn't build a show plane but built something I would be happy with and I guess the judges were prety happy with it as well, Bronze Lindy happy

My experience was well worth it and I may renter next year just to see. Or not

Thanks again Rick.

I think there should be one new category for judging - First Time Builders. With perhaps more, but less prestigious awards.

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A significant percentage of Gold Lindy winners are first-timers.

No problem there I have no issue hanging with the airplane but should the cowl be on-off? Canopy open-closed?

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You can derive your own answer by considering the Decision Tree and the judge's scoring sheet, both found in the Judging Standards Manual.

If a judge can't see a particular area of the airplane, the best he can score that area is "average". Yep, a cagey owner might consider that a plus if he knows his engine compartment isn't wonderful. However, he would be kidding himself, as the best airplanes are generally scoring well above average in every area. Off and open are generally the best bets.

If an airplane is really in contention for a Lindy, the judges will be back...all of them. The owner may or may not be there at the time; everyone tends to get restless after 3 or 4 straight days of hanging out on the flightline. A fella might kick himself when he returns to his locked airplane and finds a dozen sets of initials on the prop card.

So, a tip. Judges are picked from a respected group, locally or nationally, and being good guys, they really don't like to touch another pilot's airplane without an invitation. Many of them have been in your shoes; they know that's your baby sitting there.

I were out on a review tour with all the other judges, and found a nice note taped inside the canopy that said "Judges, please, you are welcome to open anything you wish", and the canopy latch was marked or quite obvious in its operation (a safety point), and the latch and canopy operated smoothly (craftsmanship), and...well, you get the idea.

Confusing Facts

Nothing personal here, I?m just trying to put this in perspective from a common sense point of view.
I thought it was against the rules to enhance your airplane during the show. Seems to me I remember an aircraft that was disqualified because there was a hardware change during the show. Does anyone else remember this?
The other thing that doesn?t make sense is the time stamp on the photo that is being discussed here that Thursday morning? I know that there was no change come that Thursday evening. Maybe there were no needle nose pliers to be had ? I don?t know
What about the control cable in the firewall that had no termination point, and the plastic firewall pass thru? Did anybody else notice that?
As far as some suggestions for change here are a couple thoughts:
I think a category for homebuilt complex airplanes should be developed, it?s a whole different build, and the knowledge required is quite extensive. Retractable gear, high horse power and/or a turbine engine and in some cases pressurization. Also coming in the near future is the electrical powered aircraft. That?s a different build!
Also, is it appropriate for a judge who is considered an expert in sheet metal, also be expected to judge a fiberglass airplane? The skills are very different. The fiberglass work we do on an RV is easy, compared to the composite airplane.
Let judges judge in their field of expertise, and have a number of judges in that field do the judging.
If an airplane has extensive sheet metal and composite material in the build, divide the judges appropriately.
This will be my last post on this subject, thanks to all the volunteers that work at EAA. Your efforts are appreciated. Without you Air Venture would not be a reality.
Respectfully

I had two judges at OSH ask me if I had complied with the elevator spar SB on my RV-10

When I told the first one that the SB didn't apply to -10's he seemed accepting of that like he had learned something.

The second guy, however, was insistent that it did apply even saying that other RV10 owners had told him that they had completed it, and that I should look it up.

They kind of have you backed into a corner because you need to be up to date on your aircraft's requirements, but you can't gain much by disagreeing with them on something even when they are wrong. Maybe it was a trick question and I got credit for knowing and guys who told him what he wanted to hear got nicked for lying. We never know without a debrief afterwards.