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Which IO360 180 hp

N

N787R

Active Member
I am getting close to the point that I need to order my engine.
I am thinking of the XIO-360-M1B from Vans to go with Hartzell CS prop.

I have also looked at clones and not completely ruled them out yet.

So looking for any last minute advice that could change my mind.

I have already decided on the IO-360 180 HP. So trying to choose which one.

Thanks

B
 
Depends

On how much money you got.

The clone manufacturers are equally as good as the "genuine" Lycomings provided by Van's. The Van's engines provide zero additional resale value.

Check out Mattituck, Barrat, Aerosport and others..All highly reputable shops.

frank 7a
Mattituck IO 360
 
You can also get IO-360-B1B from the above mentioned builders. 180 hp vertical induction. Just different options for those that want to bet on a different horse. Van's only sells the horizontal induction. The B1B uses the 0-360 cowling.

Jekyll
Mattituck TMX-IO-360 (B1B configuration)
 
I'll add a bit more:

Consider warrantees, the length and when they start.

Parts: Do you want all Lycoming parts? Your engine from Van's or from Lycoming Thunder will be 100% Lycoming. The clone builders will use the parts you specify. In my case, I used all Lycoming for the case and internals but opted for ECI jugs.

Look at the extras you get. Mattituck now calls their TMX engines "Alpha". They add their Red Gold premium package to the TMX engines for no additional charge. (Balance, port, polish, flow and a 3-year warrantee, I believe).

Your Vans engine will be certified and eligible for a 25 hour phase 1 versus 40 hours for all clones. Most folks will discount this because you may likely exceed 20 hours during phase 1 as it is. You can buy certified engines from the same shops selling the clones that have been overhauled or repaired.

Customization: If you want electronic ignition other than Unison, or high compression pistons, Van's is not for you.

Post sale support: I'm not sure you will get much engine help from Vans other then a pass off to Lycoming. The shops previously cited will each go well beyond what is the norm in today's market to help you with any issue you encounter. I assume Lycoming Thunder will do the same.

FWF. The FWF kits are set up to support only the engines Van's sells. You will need to modify the kits slightly to use other configurations. This is not difficult or expensive but also is not as easy as using the engines sold by Van's.

It's not all dollars and cents as I'm sure you know.

Jekyll
 
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I second Jekyll
I have been looking around for an engine.
If you want just a basic engine with no options I guess you can do pretty good with the Vans Package Deal "Engine and Prop" discount.

If you want an engine with EI, Differnt comp ratio, ect.. I would shop around and talk with the Clone Co's
 
Superior Air Parts aka Thielert

I picked Superior because of their high tech metallurgy, which was all german engineered by Thielert. They also had a three year warranty if you pay the extra $300 for the roller cam lifters, and their heads flow 6% more than the Lycomings out of the box. I went with 9:0 pistons for a little bump in power to 185.

Here is the page that discusses some of the metallurgical details:

http://www.xp-360.com/index.asp?content=4

They are owned by Thielert now, and I just trust the German culture to build good engines. Certainly Lycoming hasn't impressed lately with the quality control on the metallurgical side.

Nucleus
 
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Look at ECI

Take a look at ECI. They have all the latest improvements and are great to work with. Some of the Clone companies use ECI cylinders so I thought, "why not just use all ECI?"

One of the most important factors to me customer service. ECI is great to work with. And, very important to us is their dedication to the RV world.

Call Robbie Attaway for a great deal. (www.attawayair.com)
 
Here's my $.02

I'm still building, and I haven't turned the engine over yet. So you can take all this with a grain of salt.

I went with a Superior IO-360 and I built it at their school. By the time I take off, I will have torqued every bolt and set every rivet in the plane. (Don't know whether that's good or bad.)

The people at Superior took real good care of us. I can't say enough good things about the experience. They didn't ask for any money until we were done. Then they said, "If you are happy with the engine, give us a check".

If you're a quickbuild type, this probably won't mean much, but if you're doing it to learn as much as you can about as many things as there are, you might want to think about it. And if you want any more info on Superior, feel free to drop me a private email.

Good luck and clear skies,
 
ECI vs Lyco vs Sup

Can someone comment on these part builders.
What are the advantages and dis-advantages of each?

Thanks

Ben
 
You made the decision already, now its just money

I think you already decided, 180HP, 360 cubic inch, fuel injected.

The biggest thing you have to think of is fwd or vert induction. The first one cost more.

Than where to buy. I like Mattituck if you are East of Mississippi. They have good prices and they are not beholding to one brand of parts, ECI, Superior or Lyc. They can mix and match and they have great prices and good rep.

There is the ECI engine kit (Titan EXP - see link on left) you build your self, but you lose the warranty and I think a test cell initial brake in is worth the extra money you pay. However you can save a few grand.

There is of course Aerosport on the West Coast, just north of the boarder in Canada.

If going new you can't go wrong with the big reputable shops. I have heard good things about:
Barrett Precision Engines (see link on left)
American Prop/Eagle engines: LINK (northern California "Xtreem Engine")
Penn-Yan http://www.pennyanaero.com/
Superior builder assist program (Texas cost more but learning experience)

There are a lot more than I listed, but these are ones I have heard of with good feed back or looked at.

I like Lycoming and they are NOW becoming competitive with their ThunderBolt engine division. CHECK IT OUT!
http://www.lycoming.textron.com/engines/non-certified/thunderbolt.jsp

Basically they are doing custom experimental engines. If you want the ROLLER CAM you have to go with Lycoming (parts and case). I think their roller cam/tappet is pretty cool. Price wise they are also competitive.

They are all good, ECI, Sup, Lyc, but I do have a soft spot for the OEM, Lycoming. ECI and Sup and even Lyc have all had their little issues and recalls. I think most people are happy with all the part maker. However it was Superior I think had a cylinder recall for example. They did the right thing, but its a pain, even if they pay for the new parts. The Lyc crank deal was and is old old news. It was a vendor deal in the 90's that reared its ugly head. Older cranks and newer cranks are fine. STUFF HAPPENS. :eek: What counts is how they handle it.

If you want a lot of flexibility with options and mix and matching, you probably will want to go with Mattituck or one of the other engine shops that caters to the experimental market. I found from my research Superior is kind of rigid and not cost effective if you stray from a stock configuration.
 
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Roller tap or Not roller tap

I am not the guy who looks for the latest and greatest. I go for the good old reliable.

You all have been giving me good advice on this very confusing part of building my RV.

So wanted to get your opinion on Roller tap. Being that it is relatively new and not many engines have reached their TBO with Roller Tap, I am hesitating to choose that.
But of course if there are overwhelming reasons then I would.
I just like to avoid if I can an expensive AD down the road.

Thanks

Ben
 
N787R said:
I am not the guy who looks for the latest and greatest. I go for the good old reliable.

You all have been giving me good advice on this very confusing part of building my RV.

So wanted to get your opinion on Roller tap. Being that it is relatively new and not many engines have reached their TBO with Roller Tap, I am hesitating to choose that.
But of course if there are overwhelming reasons then I would.
I just like to avoid if I can an expensive AD down the road.

Thanks

Ben
Click to expand...
If you end up going with Superior you have no choice - all of their new engines are going out with roller tappets. All of their engines have a 3 year (after first start) warantee.

You can go "build" and engine online at xp-360.com. Engines start around $21k. Here are the things that will make your engine price vary:

1. solid or hollow crank (FP vs CS prop). +$300 for hollow crank. I would buy that even if running a FP prop, in case I later change my mind and want to go CS.
2. Horizontal or Updraft sump. Horizontal let's you use the clean cowl versus the one with the donkey dork. +$1000. Horizontal cold-air induction also claims slightly better HP since your injection system isn't sucking warm air. Personally, I'll take my 1000 and buy a nice radio (or most of one) with that $$$.
3. Carb or Fuel Injected +$300. I'm going with FI for better mixture control. I know others will disagree, but FI gives you more reliable lean of peak ops. Besides I hate the sound of a coughing engine at the top of a loop.
4. Magneto vs. electronic ignition. This is all over the map. Since you say you like tried and true, go with mags +$0.
5. Compressions. About +-5HP depending on compression. 7:1 (170HP) and 8.5:1 (180HP) pistons will let you run MOGAS. 9:1 will not. Given the current funding debate I want that option. This boy is gonna run mogas if they start taxing the cr@p out of 100LL.
6. Paint or alodined +$500 for paint.

You can also pay Superior a grand for the pleasure of building your own engine. Crazy as it sounds this is a very attractive option for me since I really want to know what's going on in that there engine.

BTW, I am in no way associated with Superior. I just like what I see.

Good luck with your selection.
 
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jmartinez443 said:
If you end up going with Superior you have no choice - all of their new engines are going out with roller tappets. All of their engines have a 3 year (after first start) warantee.
Click to expand...

Not entirely true. All Lycoming experimental kits, XIO and certified engines are now roller tappet, but you can still order the Superior kit either from the factory or a field shop that builds them with flat tappets for the same cost as the roller tappets.

Roller tappets are certainly not "new technology" if you're familiar with automotive engineering, but they are a new application in aircraft engines. There's been a lot of conversation on the list about engines not reaching TBO. The flat iron tappets are one of the reasons for this. Residual condensation in the engine, coupled with infrequent flight time lead to rust on the head of the tappet. This acts like sand paper on the camshaft and flattens the lobes of the cam. The first symptom of a problem will be a high iron reading or iron particles in your oil samples. From there, the valves will only move a fraction of what they should, and you either end up with a new top end or an o'h. This is what roller tappets are designed to combat.
 
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Regarding the quote about Superiors XP-360 warranty:
"All of their engines have a 3 year (after first start) warantee."
Not quite from first start up, unless that is within six months of shipping. Also the accessories are warranted for one year only.

From Superiors website FAQ's:

What is the warranty of the XP-360 Engine?
Superior warrants the XP-360 Engine to be free from defects in material and workmanship for ONE (1) YEAR from the date of first operation, provided the date of first operation does not exceed six (6) months from the date of shipment. Superior also offers an optional extended 3-year warranty. Superior warrants the XP-360 PLUS Engine to be free from defects in material and workmanship for Three (3) YEAR from date of first operation, provided the date of first operation does not exceed six (6) months from the date of shipment.

Does this warranty cover accessories?
Superior warrants the accessories for the XP-360 Engine supplied by Superior Air Parts, Inc. for ONE (1) YEAR, or manufacturers published warranty, which ever is greater, from the date the engine is first placed in service.

Good Luck,
Mahlon
"The opinions and information provided in this and all of my posts are hopefully helpful to you. Please use the information provided responsibly and at your own risk."
 
I stand corrected by Rhonda and Mahlon.

I should have said that Superior has removed the flat tappet option from their "Build your engine online" section. There they only offer the Plus engine which comes with the roller tappets and a 3 year warrantee at no extra cost. Those options used to cost you a couple of thousand extra over their "standard" engine.
 
I was out flying the Cardinal yesterday and landed at a local airfield for a hamburger. After the consumption of said burger I was in need for a long walk So, I walked over to the ECI testing center that is located on the field. They were in the process of putting one of their experimental experimental engines on a RV8. ( No that was not a typo but how else do you describe it) I was told that the RV8 was purchased by ECI and is flown by their company test pilot. I found it interesting that ECI uses an RV8 as their test bed. These guys have different cowls, baffles, plennums and you name it for every combination of 4 cylinder engines they make to go on this RV8. They were telling me that this engine is a new design, not one they are currently selling was going to be used to test different prop combinations with this engine. He did say that if he told me about this test engine he would have to shoot me.. Inside the shop they were putting together a new 340 stroker, that will go on this same airframe and be put through all kinds of test after the current engine comes off next month. I came away from there knowing that ECI is working hard at testing and re-testing their engines in RV's.
 
Clarification

gmcjetpilot said:
There is the ECI engine kit (Titan EXP - see link on left) you build your self, but you lose the warranty and I think a test cell initial brake in is worth the extra money you pay. However you can save a few grand.


They are all good, ECI, Sup, Lyc, but I do have a soft spot for the OEM, Lycoming. ECI and Sup and even Lyc have all had their little issues and recalls.
Click to expand...

The ECI can be 'build it yourself' but can also be built at the factory or by a rep as was the method I took. Their warranty is spelled out. I think the test cell break in more marketing hype than problem solving. Of the many ECI's Robbie has built in the Phx area non were test cell ran and they are all performing at or above specs.

The ECI recall was on some old cylinders and does not apply to anything being sold now.

As was noted, ECI uses a RV for testing. They are very 'in tune' with the RV market and are working on putting their engines on the top of the list with extremely competitive pricing. Don't forget the incredible service. I haven't needed it but did have a couple of questions and was referred to the "head guy."

Even with all of the great things ECI is doing, if doing again, I'd probably have Rhonda and family(Barrett Precision) hand build me a fire breathing smooth running, custom I0390 (360) that would blow the doors off anything on the market. Alan has already promised me that:rolleyes:
 
Yep thanks for the info

RV7Guy said:
The ECI can be 'build it yourself' but can also be built at the factory or by a rep as was the method I took.
Click to expand...
Thanks for all the good info. Yea I like ECI.

ECI has their own "mechanical" fuel injection. I am not too keen on that for a few reasons, its manual FI, not self adjusting by mass air flow; it uses RPM to control fuel flow. It works, simple and price is right, but I think not enough over the Precision or AFP to make me want one. I am a cheap carb guy any way. The ECI FI is an option and its a little better than Carb I guess, kind of between a Carb and FI in a way. There was a kit plane article on their FI.
 
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Too many choices

The trouble is, there are several very good engine suppliers out there. I had originally planned Superior or Aerosport, got swayed by very good reports about Mattituck (the current runner), have since found that the Titan rep in NZ is like, on the other side of town: a big deal considering I'm here in NZ. What to do? What to do? Local support for an engine I haven't heard that many people talk about [in the forums], or something other builders are almost fanatical about (Mattituck)...
 
We are not fanatical about Mattituck, it is just that they have some very good people there, who still believe in customer service they talk or e email the customer, advise them from a technical stance (Mahlon), then you talk to the sales guys (Michael) and between them the pre and after sales is beyond anything I have experienced for some time.

The price and quality is good.

The piece of mind when you have $20k plus hung on the front of your RV and you want a dumb question answered, a year after buying your engine, before you have even started it - and you get it promptly, is sufficient for me.

Mike
 
mike newall said:
We are not fanatical about Mattituck, it is just that they have some very good people there, who still believe in customer service they talk or e email the customer, advise them from a technical stance (Mahlon)
Click to expand...

Agreed Mike, and one of the main reasons I'm trending that way. Excellent reports from other builders and Mahlon has already been helpful and informative even though I'm still at the 'thinking about it all' stage. Another builder here in NZ has fitted one to hsi RV-7A and I'm eagerly awaiting a flying report...
 
And I guess bad stuff

Happens to everyone.

My CFII buddy trying to finish up his extremely slow build 7a has had to pull off his Superior motor and ship it back to them for replacement of a bad crank...Apprently 24 of them in the bad batch.

Its a pain but Superior did all the right things, sent shipping crate, paid for shipping both ways etc etc.

I guess if I were in NZ the locality of support would probably sway me too.

Frank 7a
 
AntiGravity said:
Agreed Mike, and one of the main reasons I'm trending that way. Excellent reports from other builders and Mahlon has already been helpful and informative even though I'm still at the 'thinking about it all' stage. Another builder here in NZ has fitted one to hsi RV-7A and I'm eagerly awaiting a flying report...
Click to expand...

Hi Jeff,

As a fellow New Zealander who also flies a TMX O-360 I would like to endorse the service and support that I've received from Mahlon and the Mattituck organization. I've just been through my first annual and the engine checked out 100%. It's been trouble free from day 1 and my performance is spot on with Van's published numbers...

Good luck with your choice
 
Can I get some opinions on this motor for sale. Price looks very good to me.-
{ Superior XP-IO-360-B1XA2 fuel injected engine with 10.5:1 compression pistons ceramic coated tops, teflon coated sides and interior. Dual P-Mags, with auto plugs, Silverhawk fuel servo, Sky-Tec starter, fuel pump, prop governor adapter, 90 deg oil filter adapter, Gami injectors. This engine is new and only has test stand run time on it. $21,500.00}
 
Ask for the run data and how long it's been since build, but I'm going to bet it's a bargain. If I were building another -360 powered RV, I'd be very interested in it. So far, I've been very pleased with my Superior XPIO and, while mine has the AFP injection, I've heard good things on the forum about the Silverhawk.
 
Cfrisella said:
Can I get some opinions on this motor for sale. Price looks very good to me.-
{ Superior XP-IO-360-B1XA2 fuel injected engine with 10.5:1 compression pistons ceramic coated tops, teflon coated sides and interior. Dual P-Mags, with auto plugs, Silverhawk fuel servo, Sky-Tec starter, fuel pump, prop governor adapter, 90 deg oil filter adapter, Gami injectors. This engine is new and only has test stand run time on it. $21,500.00}
Click to expand...

That's a pretty high compression ratio. I would consult someone like Barrett Precision Engines on the viability. Maybe they even built it? You know, there are reasons most go with 8.5 or 9.0 pistons, and they are reliability and the option of burning mogas.

FWIW,
Jerry
 
Cfrisella said:
Can I get some opinions on this motor for sale. Price looks very good to me.-
{ Superior XP-IO-360-B1XA2 fuel injected engine with 10.5:1 compression pistons ceramic coated tops, teflon coated sides and interior. Dual P-Mags, with auto plugs, Silverhawk fuel servo, Sky-Tec starter, fuel pump, prop governor adapter, 90 deg oil filter adapter, Gami injectors. This engine is new and only has test stand run time on it. $21,500.00}
Click to expand...

Way too high on the compression for my liking. Apart from reducing service life it will restrict your choice of CS propellors to more expensive composite types (which are lighter and therefore might also affect your aft CG). And then there's those P Mags...too bad about those also. ;)
 
Superior Air Parts, Inc. Chapter 11?

I just went to the Superior web site and saw an "important notice". "Superior Air Parts, Inc. Chapter 11".

Anyone with details about what this means. Will they disappear?, Recover?
 
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