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Landing My New RV 7

Slimzim

I'm New Here
Gents and Ladies,

My partner and I are in Phase I with our new RV 7 with about 29 hours TT. Partner is a CFII, has thousands of hours in his RV 4 and greases every landing. He says that the RV 4 and the RV 7 are certainly different airplanes.

We (mostly me) are having issues wheel landing the tail dragger. My partner and I add about 450 pounds to the front seats. Yes, we are both well fed. That, along with full fuel and two O2 containers in the back plus my stuffed flight bag and we are pretty heavy. Add to that, the high density altitude in this brutal Texas summer.

Partner wants full flaps when abeam the numbers. I hear the AOA chatter telling me I'm lined up good with proper airspeed on short final with some power still on the motor (180 HP). When over the numbers, I'll slowly pull off some more power to descend closer to the runway. When I think we are about two or three feet above the runway surface, my partner says, "OK, pull the power".

We drop like a rock, usually resulting in a good one wheel bounce back into the air. Bounce, bounce ... full power, flaps up and go around! Wheel landings are tough!

My partner, wanting to show me what it the cowl/runway configuration looks like when only two feet off the ground, performed a high speed taxi on a long runway. He was in control from the right seat. We took off with no flaps and he immediately pulled the power to come back down.

We did not immediately come back down. The plane floated forever. One wheel gently touched and then we're flying again without a bounce. Float, float and more floating until the plane FINALLY settled gently down. Trouble is, we're out of runway.

All ends well and I realize a vast difference between full flap and no flap landings. Full flaps = drop like a rock. No flaps = floats forever!

My question: Can I use less than full flaps on final approach (perhaps 1/2) and still maintain proper airspeed and settling onto the asphalt? Or is full flaps the only way to land these beasts? The plane flies so well otherwise.

Many thanks in advance for your valuable opinions,

Jay (Slim) Carpenter
Deep in the Heart of Texas
 
If you're "dropping like a rock" two or three feet above the runway when you pull power, you are not at the correct airspeed. What speed are you at?
 
Some observations from flying the RV-6 for many years:

1) High flying weight and high DA can combine to make consistent landings more challenging. There is less margin to work with, things happen quicker.

2) Full flaps for wheel landing is a good thing, it lowers the nose and puts the plane at a better attitude for the landing.

3) No need to go to full flaps when abeam the numbers. Try half flaps then full once you turn final. But this is personal preference and can depend on a lot of variables.

4) Wheel landings are more predictable in the RV-6 when they occur with the tail wheel "slightly low". This is not the same attitude as is common for wheel landings in a J-3.

5) A good way to get the feel for RV wheel landings is to fly down to one foot above the runway with sufficient power for positive control as you transition to level flight one foot above the runway. Maintain this altitude and when stabilized slowly reduce power without changing pitch. The plane will gently touch down on the mains with the tail slightly low (see above) and then power can be reduced to allow the tail wheel to settle to the runway. This exercise will give you the feel of where the runway is located and how the RV feels at the proper touch down speed.

Having said all that...I have been on this forum long enough to know there are those who will have different opinions...there are about as many ways to land an RV as there are pilots. But maybe this will provide food for thought as you sort out your new RV-7.

Enjoy!
 
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Jay,

The RV-4 and 7 are quite different when it comes to flight handling, W&B, landing, etc. The -4 will certainly be more sensitive to aft CG, pax, baggage, etc. Learn to do a good 3 point landing first. Getting some instruction from one of the certified RV Transition instructors would not be a bad idea either. http://www.vansairforce.net/transition_training.htm

I agree with pretty much everything that Sam has written here also. If you are not familiar with wheel landings, then there will be a steeper learning curve for you.

When flying final, have the aircraft configed for landing (flaps full, around 75-80 Mph IAS as an initial VRef depending on weight). Fly the aircraft to around 1-2' above the ground and LEVEL IT above the runway. (Don't sink it in from 20' up, which will add to complicating factors). Don't 'pull power', but rather slowly bleed it to idle while in this zone. One of the techniques I try to use is to only touch down on 1 wheel at a time, using it a a 'curb feeler' for lack of a better term. If you try to touch down on both, you cannot judge finer rates of sink which may then cause a bounce. A bounce is a good reason to GO AROUND in a RV for a newer pilot. Don't try to salvage it as the airplane is now below flying speed and will continue in this mode where it just keeps bouncing back into the air under limited control.

High speed taxi activities are also something to be avoided. (See Section 15 -Final Inspection-Flight Testing) There have been far too many RV's damaged and pilots injured/killed doing this type of activity. Avoid it at all costs...

Learn to land the -7 with between 1/2 and Full flaps. There is really no mission requirement for a No Flap landing other than a loss of electrical power. Learn that down the road when you get better at them.

Posted on the VAF Home page is a screed on how to do this in a 'Deadstick' condition. Other than the prop not turning, then procedure is roughly the same. Give it a look:

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=141918

Also go seek out a qualified RV Transition Instructor to help you out rather than continue the experiment...
 
Jay,

The RV-4 and 7 are quite different when it comes to flight handling, W&B, landing, etc. The -4 will certainly be more sensitive to aft CG, pax, baggage, etc. Learn to do a good 3 point landing first. Getting some instruction from one of the certified RV Transition instructors would not be a bad idea either. http://www.vansairforce.net/transition_training.htm

I totally agree with Joe, and started writing the same post earlier but deleted it because I didn't want to offend your CFI friend (so now Joe will have to take the blame......;))
 
This discussion is taking on a tone (of course, it usually does) of wheel landing vrs full stall landing.

Some instructors on the approved list are so fixed in their view on this matter they do not teach or demonstate a wheel landing.

I have a friend who has paid a lot of money, not once but twice, to go Oregon for this training and was not shown a single wheel landing.

Just pointing out sometimes one has to go out and learn it alone. Try one thing and if it does't work well, try something different.

I've flown with many CFI's and they all have their own way of getting it done. (I say that from the perspective of being a current CFI, we all pull our pants on the same way but that's where the similarity ends)

The problem is transferring what they know to a person who needs to learn it. Sometimes that transfer does not occur and you'r stuck with sorting it out yourself, which in the long run may be the best way to go.

Hang in there Jay (Slim) Carpenter, based on how you've described the issues, you are no dummy. Think about what isn't working right and see if you can fix it. There is a ton of stuff written on this forum on landing these airplanes...somewhere in there you will find answers that make sense to you.
 
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Just pointing out sometimes one has to go out and learn it alone. Try one thing and if it does't work well, try something different.

I've flown with many different types CFI's (I am on myself) and they all have their own way of getting it done. The problem is transferring what they know to a person who needs to learn it. Sometimes that transfer does not occur and you'r stuck with sorting it out yourself, which in the long run may be the best way to go.

Yep, any CFI with signficant RV experience is qualified to shepherd a new RV pilot through their initial landings. Folks shouldn't get too carried away with reverence for "certified" RV instructors. No disrespect to their experience, but these are dead simple, friendly airplanes to operate. Nothing special required. And yes, most of your skill and techniques will be developed on your own. Pilots have wide-ranging ideas on how best to land an airplane, including CFIs..."RV certified" or otherwise. Each pilot must find what works well for them within the boundaries of safety. Flight instruction has its limits.
 
I attempt wheel landings in my 7 almost 100% of the time these days. I was taught them during transition training by Jan Bussell but was afraid to try them for a long time after getting the plane flying. One day I was sick of the inconsistent results I was getting with 3 pointers so I decided to practice wheel landings and determined I was getting much better consistency with wheelies. So now I try for them almost all the time and if it does not workout, no big deal, convert to a 3 point.

Solo makes for an easier wheel landing for me. Put a passenger in there and it gets tougher, add a bunch of baggage and a passenger and I have to be spot on with the technique...

Vertical speed at touchdown is critical and depending on the CG, stopping the tail from dropping can be just as critical. If the tail drops after the mains touch, your flying again! Timing the stick push is the key to preventing this!

Nothing beats wheelie where you don't even feel the wheels touch!
 
Yep, any CFI with signficant RV experience is qualified to shepherd a new RV pilot through their initial landings. Folks shouldn't get too carried away with reverence for "certified" RV instructors. No disrespect to their experience, but these are dead simple, friendly airplanes to operate. Nothing special required. And yes, most of your skill and techniques will be developed on your own. Pilots have wide-ranging ideas on how best to land an airplane, including CFIs..."RV certified" or otherwise. Each pilot must find what works well for them within the boundaries of safety. Flight instruction has its limits.

Perhaps, but the OP is already working with a CFI who has significant RV experience and is also a co-owner of his airplane, yet he came here for "internet forum" flight training advice.
My interpretation of that is that he thinks the current training process is not doing as well as it could be.
That is the basis for the recommendation he seek transition training from a different CFI. I actually do think that someone that has given transition training to quite a few different pilots is a better choice than just any CFI (no offense intended... I am sure many do a great job..... but I am aware of many that haven't also)
 
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All,

No offense to anyone CFI or otherwise, just my $.02 worth. Also, as an aside, you don't need to learn wheelers in an RV either. I did my initial TW instruction long ago in a T-Craft and the skills were easily portable to larger Cessna's, RV's, as well as other TW types.
Perhaps, but the OP is already working with a CFI who has significant RV experience and is also a co-owner of his airplane, yet he came here for "internet forum" flight training advice.
My interpretation of that is that he thinks the current training process is not doing as well as it could be.
That is the basis for the recommendation he seek transition training from a different CFI. I actually do think that someone that has given transition training to quite a few different pilots is a better choice than just any CFI (no offense intended... I am sure many do a great job..... but I am aware of many that haven't also)
Just like a good Barber, you can shop around for specialty instructors who will train you on wheelers, 3-point, instrument, multi, formation, etc. They will most likely be different instructors though, and having many is not a bad thing.

Depending on the day, you may need to use all of the skills in your bag too. So knowing how to use wheel landings in turbulent cross winds and then a 3-point later at a short/soft sandy beach somewhere like Copalis just gives you the added confidence and makes you a better pilot. Becoming adept at the full spectrum of flying skills is what we are ultimately after...
 
Jay,

Yes, you can use Full Flaps, no Flaps or anything in between. However, full flaps is generally recommended and most widely used. Don't be afraid to try partial flaps.

First, level the airplane on a sturdy tail stand and sit in the cockpit. Note the sight-picture and the exaggerated nose low attitude. Spin the prop so that you can see just how much ground clearance you really have. If possible and safe, raise the tail so that you have about an inch or two of ground clearance from the prop. Then sit in the cockpit. You will feel like you are tipping over. Now when you do your wheel landings you will know what a significant margin of clearance there is.

Try this. Do your wheel landing with ONE wheel touch first (should be doing that anyway if there is any crosswind). Focus on that. It will really help the spring gear recoil and temper the "bounce". Next focus on NOT moving the stick back after to touching down on the ONE wheel. Any aft movement and you are going to bounce. You really need to plant the wheels by deliberate forward movement of the stick. Keep it on the one wheel to get a feel for the control input result.
 
I'm bothered by the instruction to chop the power 3 feet off the ground. I was taught, and it has always worked for me, to keep a little power on until touchdown. It doesn't take much, but it helps you keep straight and gives better control. Remember, the throttle is a "flight control" too. I'm only talking about a couple hundred RPM above idle.

I also like the idea of touching one wheel first. That little bit of drag caused by the wheel touch really helps prevent the bounce, and it looks cool!

regards

~Marc
 
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I pretty much exclusively wheel land the -6, as to me they seem much easier and more controllable, and a lot less bouncy. I usually use half flaps unless it's a short or grass runway or I'm practicing for same. Heavy or light doesn't seem to make much difference outside of a higher approach speed but a very aft CG makes it seem to want to settle a little more (though it's extremely rare that I have anything in the back).

The one time I had a chance to fly a -7 I found it flew pretty much the same, except for a bit more float and some power steering on the rudder (it had the BIG rudder, and Dad's -6 has the small tail).
 
I'm bothered by the instruction to chop the power 3 feet off the ground. I was taught, and it has always worked for me, to keep a little power on until touchdown.

No power works just fine too - even with full flaps and a CS prop. These airplanes aren't jets. Flying a powered approach and going to idle before touchdown destabilizes the airplane and adds an unnecessary variable. All of this will be solved simply be the OP getting more time in the airplane, but in the meantime he might be well served by either flying final with no power, or a small touch of power carried to the point the wheels touch. One less variable. Everyone has their own preferred recipe, or how they "were taught". Don't hang onto one technique just because someone "taught" you that way. There are many ways to approach and land these airplanes. Like pilots in general, many RV pilots tend to approach unnecessarily flat, at too high an airspeed, and float excessively before touchdown. It all boils down to skill, comfort level, and personal preference. Experiment. These are simple little airplanes.
 
No power works just fine too - even with full flaps and a CS prop. These airplanes aren't jets. Flying a powered approach and going to idle before touchdown destabilizes the airplane and adds an unnecessary variable. All of this will be solved simply be the OP getting more time in the airplane, but in the meantime he might be well served by either flying final with no power, or a small touch of power carried to the point the wheels touch. One less variable. Everyone has their own preferred recipe, or how they "were taught". Don't hang onto one technique just because someone "taught" you that way. There are many ways to approach and land these airplanes. Like pilots in general, many RV pilots tend to approach unnecessarily flat, at too high an airspeed, and float excessively before touchdown. It all boils down to skill, comfort level, and personal preference. Experiment. These are simple little airplanes.
Ditto. For me normal is power off abeam numbers all the way to touch down. Means nothing is going to drop out due to pulling power at the last minute. Side benefit is that it better prepares me to handle an engine out scenario in real life. That said, this is for a -9. The power-off sink rate of the short wing RV's might not allow this. YMMV.
 
Ditto. For me normal is power off abeam numbers all the way to touch down. Means nothing is going to drop out due to pulling power at the last minute. Side benefit is that it better prepares me to handle an engine out scenario in real life. That said, this is for a -9. The power-off sink rate of the short wing RV's might not allow this. YMMV.
This is what I was taught from day one in my flight training... If you remove power on landing, plan for the situation where you don't get it back.

I find if i'm having trouble wheel landing the -6, if I add a little more speed on the next circuit it gets easier. You really want to be flying it on, not hanging it there such that removing power will cause you to drop out from 3' up. Once you've flown the wheels on, a healthy amount of forward stick will keep it there.

As for flaps, I have 4 notches on my manual flaps (it came this way). I give 10 degrees abeam the numbers as I hit the flap extension speed. 10 more on base, and 10 more on final, each time i'm 10 knots slower than I was when I added the previous notch. That means i'm landing with 30 degrees of flap most of the time, I've only bothered with 40 when going into shorter strips or wanting a steeper approach.

I've tried adding all the flap at once at Vfe as you were doing. The amount of effort it takes on the manual flap lever tells me that the added stress on the airframe isn't worth it. 10 degrees at a time, slowing 10 knots at a time, and the flaps come out with very light pulls on the lever. If you have electric flaps, you won't be aware of this, but I guarantee you're putting more stress on the airframe than you need to.
 
That said, this is for a -9. The power-off sink rate of the short wing RV's might not allow this. YMMV.

Sure they do - it's just a matter of comfort level. Some pilots are actually uncomfortable with the descent rate of a 172 power off. A short wing RV w/ full flaps, power off and a CS prop comes down faster, but it's all relative. Anyone who thinks there's a lot of descent rate associated with the setup I just described should should get some time in a Pitts S-2C with that fat blade Hartzell claw. Comes down way faster and will make the RV seem like a glider. That S-2C can do a power off 180 just fine. So can any RV. Modern flight training teaches power on "stabilized" flat approaches, but it's great practice to do it power off.
 
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I've tried adding all the flap at once at Vfe as you were doing. The amount of effort it takes on the manual flap lever tells me that the added stress on the airframe isn't worth it. 10 degrees at a time, slowing 10 knots at a time, and the flaps come out with very light pulls on the lever. If you have electric flaps, you won't be aware of this, but I guarantee you're putting more stress on the airframe than you need to.

It can handle it, and then some, but I don't disagree.
Mike Seager teaches a simple two step approach, 20 abeam then 40 on base. If I have to make an extremely short approach, I will turn base and dump everything. Don't worry about the airframe, but as you, I avoid dragging it in under power unless I want to make a super short landing, which will be more like a controlled crash in the 6 than a landing in three point or you can drag tail low and roll it onto the mains. Every RV I have flown have different characteristics depending on engine, prop, weight, DA, etc....
 
Lotsa RV 6 landings - I am not a fan of full flaps unless the runway is short. 1/2 flaps is my standard. 1/2 flaps add lift co-efficient, full flaps only add drag

Do not chop the power at 3'. The airplane does much better being flown onto the deck in a tail low wheelie, not dropped on in a 3 point. 3 points are very inconsistent in my experience. The airplane is generally not stalled in a 3 point attitude and there fore very sensitive to pitch changes near the runway. Hold or adding a very slight amount of power is great help with two aboard, reducing smoothly to idle just befor or as touching down.

I would look critically at your CG condition with two aboard. Sixes and Sevens can have CG's tending aft with two souls especially with light props. In this condition they get very pitch sensitive and bouncy!

Fly it on smoothly on the mains - FLY it on as opposed to drop it on!!
 
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I have been doing three point landings in my 7 since I bought it last year. I was taught 3 point in my Aviat Husky years ago and still use mainly 3 point for obvious reasons. I too have experienced in consistent landings in my 7 when doing only three pointers. I am going to work on wheel landings in the 7 but so far i have been getting bouncy when trying it. I like the idea of flying it down and just slowly reducing power for wheel landings. It is a lot different than a Husky with big tires
 
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