Avionics comparison Matrix for panel purchase

Building RV-7A and would like to see others avionics comparison spreadsheets on how they made avionics panel decisions.

Hoping to get some Sun-n-fun specials.

I'm looking at an EFIS and an IFR lite panel. 2nd radio behind panel.

My engine arrives on Monday, 2/10/14.

Mercedes
RV-6A Flying

I'm afraid this is one of those things which just can't quantitatively be put into a simple spreadsheet any more. Early on it was easy because each mfgr had distinctly different offerings and in fact we used to publish such a matrix in Kitplanes...now it would border on impossible!. Now much of it is gray areas of overlap, and many things are subjective. It's impossible to quantify some things, because different details matter differently to different folks. Add that to the fact that folks tend to cling, support, defend and love what they personally own (which is a good thing - just doesn't necessarily help others make an objective choice) and it becomes even more difficult.

Without knowing more about you, your plane, your mission, budget, use, situation, experience, skills, etc.. it's difficult to come up with an ideal solution for you, even more difficult with a spreadsheet.

We sell, service, install and wire hundreds of EFISes per year from several mfgr's. If one were a clear winner the others wouldn't sell or even survive! The approach I take with folks is to get an understanding of the aformentioned topics, then I can usually help them narrow down their decisions....and find the perfect solution for YOU (which just cannot easily be figured out on a spreadsheet)!

Sorry I'm not of much help here!

Cheers,
Stein

+1 for Stein

The title of your post caught my eye - I was curious how all the factors could be put in a readable-to-me matrix.

I was in your situation last year and started researching vendors, systems, functionality, and components.
I compiled my perceived requirements based on my mission, and soon was overloaded by subjective variables.
Of course, I'm a dog watching the television...

I'd suggest you think through "...your plane, your mission, budget, use,
situation, experience, skills, etc..." then give Stein a call.

And buy him a beer at Oshkosh.

Cougar,
Best thing to do is to fly with a few of us in the team with different avionics and see what you like and dont like. Goose has the dynon. I can show you my GRTs in the fastback and i am pretty sure we can find some others.

That being said, they all offer about the same functions. More functions than you will ever use.

I second both Axel's and Stein's comments. The only thing I would add is for either hard or lite IFR in my humble opinion the autopilot should be a stand alone item and NOT dependent on the EFIS.

dav1111 said:

I second both Axel's and Stein's comments. The only thing I would add is for either hard or lite IFR in my humble opinion the autopilot should be a stand alone item and NOT dependent on the EFIS.

Click to expand...

Let me pile on.......

I tired what you are suggesting and like Stein stated, it can't be done. The main reason is that there still a significant amount of intellectual capital that isn't consisently documented from on vendor to the next. Go fly behind each vendor that you are considering. You may have to call the vendor to find somebody close to you. Be prepared that everyone will come up with numerous reasons to justify what they purchased. That just makes sifting through all the facts and opinions more difficult.

For example, what is the the process flow and buttonology for flying an approach? There are differences between the vendors, in which you'll need to make a personal decision on which is more intuitive to you.

I also second Russ's comment about a non-EFIS dependent AP. It will buy you some think time in IMC if things go south.

bob

Hi Mercedes,

If you want to pop up to Dayton (Carson City area) some time, I'd be happy to let you punch buttons and twist knobs on both a GRT and G3X.

The"objective" selection matrix approach that I have advocated for a long time has almost become obsolete if you are looking at IFR-capable EFIS's, because pretty much all of them have the same functionality now - so you find out that "one equals one" when you get done - and are no closer to a selection. So that is when the subjective part comes in, and you have to go pushing buttons to see what works best with your brain and fingers.

The selection matrix is still a good idea for folks to focus their true needs (very few homebuilts ever actually see the inside of a cloud, not matter how they get equipped), and I recommend folks with no background start there - but I expect you're well beyond the point of requirements definition....

Paul

I think most and probably all the vendors have the manuals available for download. It's worth reading them.

Start with the installation manuals. Some seem to have a high degree of integration and some are a collection of separate (and therefore selectable) options but which need more wiring to connect them all up.

Here are some questions to start with:

Can they interface with the particular transponder or com radio you plan to install?

Will there be a path to 2020 compliance?

If you're going to have an autopilot, how easy is it to set up and use? Do you need an extra box to do that?

If you're going to have it display your engine data, do the sensors have a remote data collection box or do all the sensors get wired directly to the EFIS?

What back-up power sources are you going to have - if you have one for the airplane, do you need one for the EFIS too, and is that included in the box or will it be remote?

The operator's or pilot's manuals will help you get an idea of what the work load is for the various operations. Also look to see how much or how little information you can optionally select since you might want to reduce screen clutter or include some particular bit of information.

Dave

Cougar, I agree with the posts by Stein and Paul, they are all pretty much the same when it comes to functionality. And everyone seems to think their 'flavor' is the best. For me, the deciding factor became...who is behind the product? Good track record? Do they have staying power? Excellent customer service? heavily invested in the experimental world? continuously upgrading software?

I chose Garmin (GDU375) and Dynon (SkyView) because I didnt want all my eggs in one basket. Both companies have been excellent on all fronts so far. As you know...not quite flying yet, but its sure been fun seeing what they can do pushing buttons on the ground.

Little things count

One of my factors was, "Will they fit in the places I want them to go without having to cut (and reinforce) structure?", e.g., physical size.

Another thing almost no one thinks about (thank you, Stein) is, "Are there enough serial (RS232) and/or ARINC ports to meet the needs of all the things I want to hook up?"

Play nice together

The human factor is so much more in play than it ever was. What works for one person may not work for you. It could be as simple as the color or location of a particular item on the display. So, find some friends or vendors and allow yourself you be the judge. THEN, make sure it is going to pay nice with all of the other items you are going to have in your airplane, both now and in the not-too-distant future, as it all keeps changing rather rapidly.

Any more, I find that equipping an airplane with modern avionics is not unlike installing a nice entertainment system in the home. They all look different, function differently, and sometimes the various components don't play nice with each other, in spite of the best intentions.

Vic

From Peter at SZP

Hi Mercedes the e market changes so fast with so many smart folks making
Cool new gadgets my best recommendation is to be sure you have a
Modular panel so as you change and upgrade you just redo the inset panels
That way you can always get something nice for Christmas
Ps don't forget the integrated smoke oil tank might as well build it in

Peter

I agree with the others that a comparison matrix is pretty much impossible to piece together, especially since so many of the features are software driven and be added/updated fairly quickly. Certainly look at cpu power, screen technology and communication capability as that will restrict how many future features can be added.

With the aviation economy as it is, I would start to eliminate vendors that you don't have great confidence will be around in 5 yrs. Most likely you will purchase/install your EFIS @1 yr before 1st flight. A lot can happen in a year!!

For each vendor, are they gaining market share or loosing it? Are they selling fewer units and raising their prices to compensate for lack of sells? That could be an indication of a "death spiral" where their pricing to stay in business shrinks their customer base to zero!

The current major EFIS vendors are Garmin, Dynon, Advanced Flight, GRT and MGL.

Garmin is hugh with lots of money and power behind it to fund all sorts of R&D and use their money to under price the other players and dominate the market if they so choose. On the other extreme, they could just abandon the experimental market and probably not even notice the impact.

Dynon probably has the largest install base, especially when you add the Light-Sport market. They also purchased Advanced Flight a year or so ago and the technology transfer they could receive from that purchase could certainly help future Skyview systems.

Advanced Flight has a awesome selection of EFIS offerings. However, their acquisition by Dynon certainly begs the question as to how long will Dynon allow them to operate as a separate company and compete with their flagship SkyView product.

I personally don't know much about GRT. Not as big as Garmin and Dynon and certainly doesn't have the install base of Dynon. Are they gaining ground or loosing out to Garmin and Dynon??

MGL, interesting company, Seem to have some nice features however I don't believe they have a large install base in the US.

Talk to vendors like Stein and see what product they sell the most of. Once you figure out who you think will survive, you will probably be satisfied with what they offer.

Just my .02.

Avionics Panel Design Decisions.....

Paul,
Thanks for your insight and gracious offer to fly the systems. I will contact you about that.

I've been looking at the buttonology on the different systems. I agree with everyone that it really is a personal decision based on your preferences.

I really liked the spreadsheet to help evaluate my need vs want vs affordabilty. I liked the fact that I can see the whole selection in front of me Thanks to all who helped with that .

Mercedes
Fire breathing Engine mounted RV-7A
Flying RV-6A

Ironflight said:

Hi Mercedes,

If you want to pop up to Dayton (Carson City area) some time, I'd be happy to let you punch buttons and twist knobs on both a GRT and G3X.

The"objective" selection matrix approach that I have advocated for a long time has almost become obsolete if you are looking at IFR-capable EFIS's, because pretty much all of them have the same functionality now - so you find out that "one equals one" when you get done - and are no closer to a selection. So that is when the subjective part comes in, and you have to go pushing buttons to see what works best with your brain and fingers.

The selection matrix is still a good idea for folks to focus their true needs (very few homebuilts ever actually see the inside of a cloud, not matter how they get equipped), and I recommend folks with no background start there - but I expect you're well beyond the point of requirements definition....

Paul

Click to expand...

avionics integrating with smoking airplanes smoke system

John at Smoking airplanes is the best. I've never herard anyone say I wish i didn't put smoke in afterwards. Yes it's being built into the airplane. It flys faster with smoke!
Mercedes

petercavallo said:

Hi Mercedes the e market changes so fast with so many smart folks making
Cool new gadgets my best recommendation is to be sure you have a
Modular panel so as you change and upgrade you just redo the inset panels
That way you can always get something nice for Christmas ��
Ps don't forget the integrated smoke oil tank might as well build it in

Peter

Click to expand...

I get the fact we didn't provide you with much of a spreadsheet! That said, here are a quick few really rough numbers that you can use real rough "guesstimates" in your search:

1) Single screen EFIS system: $5K
2) Dual/Triple Screen EFIS system: $10K
3) Dual Axis Autopilot Servos: $1700
4) Stand alone A/P controller: $800
4) Engine probes/sensors: $1000
5) Comm Radio: $1200
6) IFR Certified GPS/NAV/Comm: $9800
7) Heated Pitot: $300-450
8) Audio Panel: $900-1500
9) Transponder: $2200
10) ADSB receiver: $700-900

Rough VFR pricing for core equipment: around $12-16K
Rough IFR pricing for core equipment: around $22-30K

Now all you have to do is pick the brand, because most of the popular systems will fit into the above model (AFS, Dynon, Garmin or GRT).

Of course people can point out variables up and down, more and less, as well as a whole multitude of things that can change that either direction on any given brand, but those are good basic ROM numbers. Honestly, it's of little value to produce a spreadsheet that simply ticks off the same basic check marks with almost equal resultant prices across the several different brands...that's won't help you make a decision at all. What will, is the subjective parts everyone has discussed. The core things are just literally about the same prices across vendors. Everyone sells servos for around $800. Everyone sells probes/sensors for around $1K (for 4cyl). Everyone sells a transponder for around $2200...so on and so forth. People will likely point out that on the low end you can spend a little less and on the high end you can spend a lot more, but for the typical real world use the above numbers are typical "averages".

My point in the end is once you figure out that all the systems cost about the same amount (almost within dozens of dollars of each other across equivalent systems), you just need to figure out what level of equipment you're looking at then you'll be good to go!

Cheers,
Stein

PS, you'll love your smoke system!