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Cracking on steps

boom3 said:
Sent this to Vans today.

Not sure who to send this to at Vans so I thought I?d give support a shot. Please forward it along if need be.
Is there any chance of Vans beefing up the current step design or offering a heavy duty version. Seldom ever used and never abused (babied in fact), my passenger side step cracked at about 200 hours. This compression crack on the underside seems to be the norm on most passenger and some pilot side steps. (There have been quite a few threads on Vans Airforce over the years)
I realize that no matter what you make, someone will find a way to abuse or break it. I just think in this case a little heavier duty design is warranted. I?m sure most of us would be more than willing to pay a little more and sacrifice a little weight. I heard that the Van?s demo planes have beefed up steps. If true, maybe this could be offered on all of them.

Thank you,

Jeff Bloomquist
RV-7A


step4.jpg
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My right side step looks exactly like that at this time. I wouldn't call it a "passenger side" as that is the side I fly from full time :). I'm getting ready to remove mine for remediation of some sort as I'm pleased that it is still attached after our recent trip. Heck, maybe I'll just convert the whole thing to a tail dragger and be done with it :).
 
scard said:
My right side step looks exactly like that at this time. I wouldn't call it a "passenger side" as that is the side I fly from full time :). I'm getting ready to remove mine for remediation of some sort as I'm pleased that it is still attached after our recent trip. Heck, maybe I'll just convert the whole thing to a tail dragger and be done with it :).
Click to expand...

It's not too bad getting the step removed. (I posted some pics on page 4 of this thread in case you missed it while you were drinking beers in the sun on some Caribbean island.:D Lucky!)

Big thanks to you and Rosie for the great write ups!
 
new steps

I've been reading this thread and now that I finally finished inventory on both wing and fuse kits, I thought I would post a picture of the steps in my kit.
I notice they are not powder coated. The picture is the area where the cracks seem to show up.
Two questions...
Do they look like any other steps or has Vans modified them?
Should I beef them up now and how?
Thanks
a4wvok.jpg

149rwvd.jpg
 
wirejock said:
I've been reading this thread and now that I finally finished inventory on both wing and fuse kits, I thought I would post a picture of the steps in my kit.
I notice they are not powder coated. The picture is the area where the cracks seem to show up.
Two questions...
Do they look like any other steps or has Vans modified them?
Should I beef them up now and how?
Thanks
Click to expand...

That looks about the same to me. Also looks like a bit of a "hot" weld, now that I think I know the difference.

I spent another 20min looking at mine that is cracked, slowly hatching a plan. I'd rather complain about it a little longer though :).
 
Step Breakage solution

I have 875 Hrs on my RV-7A now. I've replaced the right side step four times! See my post at the beginning of this tread for a picture of the last replacement. When the first step broke (around 250 Hrs), I had it re-welded (by a shop that does turbine blades) but replaced it with a new step before the process had been completed. I installed nut plates for AN-3 bolts, and an inspection panel in the baggage compartment floor. The new step broke in exactly the same place after about 200 Hrs. I replaced it with the repaired first step, but it broke after about another 200 Hrs. The new step was repaired, and beefed up on the back side, but not excessively - the beefed up area was only in the area of the crack. It broke AGAIN! I'm not back to the first step again, which has been modified with an additional plate wrapped and welded around the back side extending 6 inched down. So far, it has shaown no signs of cracking at the 225Hr point.... So my advice to you is to weld an additional thickness of metal tot he backside of the step and extend it at least six inches down from the original weld.

wirejock said:
I've been reading this thread and now that I finally finished inventory on both wing and fuse kits, I thought I would post a picture of the steps in my kit.
I notice they are not powder coated. The picture is the area where the cracks seem to show up.
Two questions...
Do they look like any other steps or has Vans modified them?
Should I beef them up now and how?
Thanks
a4wvok.jpg

149rwvd.jpg
Click to expand...
 
I ordered steps with my kit but after studying it decided not to use them.
After reading this thread last night I got my never installed steps out and looked them over. I like a good mystery and after looking at every thing here is my take on it. Remember it is just my .02 worth.
If you study the pictures in this thread and look at the heat affected zone (the discolored area around the welds) in Wirejock's pictures they look about the same as mine, if you assume most of the others in the field are about the same then the cracks seem to be in the middle more or less of the heat affected zone on the bottom side. Stop and think about what happens when someone steps on the step. There is a downward force and a force pushing toward the underside of the fuse. I do not know how to calculate this force but I think it could be quite a lot and the largest part of that force is focused right on the area where the streamlined tube is welded to the round tube.
As far as how some one wants to reinforce this area I can see several ways of doing it but I will leave that up to the field engineers out there. I would say though that the patch should be made so that the weld goes more along the length of the streamlined tube. I hope this all makes sense.

By the way I have a set of steps I would like to sell if anybody is interested.
 
I know many builders have annealed that location with a torch, has anyone experienced a crack step after annealing?
 
In two weeks Van's will have their planes on display. Maybe someone should stop by and snap some pictures of the under side of the factory altered step and post it here.
 
Another Crack Found

Checked my steps today: Pilot side fine, Passenger side has crack on fuselage side near weld. 297 hours on plane. Sent message to Van's.
 
scard said:
Why? What are you expecting? Just fix it to your satisfaction and move on. Van isn't the manufacturer, just the facilitator.
Click to expand...

Van's designed the step (if they "facilitated" the design they are still responsible), with so many failures it "appears" to be a design flaw, not a manufacturing defect.
 
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gasman said:
How many of you that have cracked steps are flying behind an O360..... AND a C/S porp?
Click to expand...

Or better yet, how many with cracked steps haven't had their prop balanced :D
(mine are not cracked... yet)

Edit: Just checked them again, both have small cracks, the right is worse than the left.
 
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Cracks in Steps!!!!!

.....Mine failed at 200 hrs. I removed them, re-welded, annealed, heat treated them and reinstalled them. I suspected that prop wash was the culprit so I mounted a transducer on them to measure the vibration. Wow! It turns out it is prop wash and a harmonic from the engine. I was suspect of this going in, as the rights fail at a 3 to 1 rate. I played a little bit and my very simple fix to eliminate the re-occurrence is very easy and costs nothing. If you have not had this issue, I am sure you will so you may want to apply this to your steps before they crack.
.... Drill a small hole into the lower part of the step on one end, (the part you step on). Measure out some sand, approximately enough to fill the lower step portion about 2/3 up. Then reseal the hole. Silicone will work great if you have them installed, if still off the plane just plug weld the holes, paint and install.
.... This works just like a dead blow hammer, it absorbs the vibration and stops the harmonic before it gets started. I tested for vibration again and it was almost non existent, so we are convinced this little mod will stop the problem dead in its tracks. I have addressed this problem in several a models, 7,8,&9s as well with 100% success and no more vibrations. Perhaps we need to start selling some special "Anti-Splat-Aero Sand". Thanks, Allan...:rolleyes:
 
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You

PerfTech said:
.....
.... Drill a small hole into the lower part of the step on one end, (the part you step on). Measure out some sand, approximately enough to fill the lower step portion about 2/3 up. Then reseal the hole. Silicone will work great if you have them installed, if still off the plane just plug weld the holes, paint and install.
.... "Anti-Splat-Aero Sand". Thanks, Allan...:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Allan your solution is brilliant.
You hit the problem right on the head. ;) I've been trying out all kinds of reinforcement plate designs to beef up the area. Your fix is similar to the lead weight dampers we used to install on long span high voltage lines to eliminate any vibration caused by winds. After installing, the vibration stopped or was greatly reduced instantly.
My reinforcement plate fix would have screwed up two good steps and they probably would have still cracked. :eek: Here I was thinking it was the chubby passengers causing the problem. :p
Thanks again Allan, you are definitely on the ball solving these RV glitches.;)
 
Bravo Allan, Bravo. Facts & data lead to solution. Could use lead shot too, as it won't absorb moisture.

Question, what was the natural frequency of the step? I was guessing in the 5-10 hz range based on the 200 hrs to failure and 4-8 million cycles. It would really depend on when the crack was detected, it might have begun much earlier at higher hz.
 
How big the weight envelope?

Like the idea of lead shot. For our experts out there, is there a "sweet spot" as far as the amount of weight added? Do you think too much weight could cause a reverse vibration affect?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gasman
How many of you that have cracked steps are flying behind an O360..... AND a C/S porp?
-----------------------
Walt said:
Or better yet, how many with cracked steps haven't had their prop balanced :D
(mine are not cracked... yet)

Edit: Just checked them again, both have small cracks, the right is worse than the left.
__________________
Walt Aronow, Dallas, TX (52F) RV7A, O360, C/S, 1300+hrs
Click to expand...

You just answered my question.
 
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PerfTech said:
.....Mine failed at 200 hrs. I removed them, re-welded, annealed, heat treated them and reinstalled them. I suspected that prop wash was the culprit so I mounted a transducer on them to measure the vibration. Wow! It turns out it is prop wash and a harmonic from the engine. I was suspect of this going in, as the rights fail at a 3 to 1 rate. I played a little bit and my very simple fix to eliminate the re-occurrence is very easy and costs nothing. If you have not had this issue, I am sure you will so you may want to apply this to your steps before they crack.
.... Drill a small hole into the lower part of the step on one end, (the part you step on). Measure out some sand, approximately enough to fill the lower step portion about 2/3 up. Then reseal the hole. Silicone will work great if you have them installed, if still off the plane just plug weld the holes, paint and install.
.... This works just like a dead blow hammer, it absorbs the vibration and stops the harmonic before it gets started. I tested for vibration again and it was almost non existent, so we are convinced this little mod will stop the problem dead in its tracks. I have addressed this problem in several a models, 7,8,&9s as well with 100% success and no more vibrations. Perhaps we need to start selling some special "Anti-Splat-Aero Sand". Thanks, Allan...:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Alan,
How about some details on whole size and location. And perhaps some photos.
Bob Cowan
 
I did my steps the other day trying to follow Allens recommendation.
My steps are mounted on the plane but not painted yet.
I used sand from my sand blaster which was clean and white fine grain.
I drilled a 3/16" hole on top of the step at the farthest outboard end, just inboard of the plate that is welded on the end, and at the fattest part of the step (about 1/3 back from the leading edge).
I wrapped a small piece of poster board around the step and cut it to match the exact size of the step. I took it off and taped the ends together to form a sort of mold shape of the step. Then I filled the posterboard with sand 2/3 full. I poured the sand into a sandwich bag and cut a very small corner off the bag.
Then I used the bag as a funnel to pour the sand into the 3/16" hole.
As the step filled with sand, I tapped it with my hand to get the sand to distribute along the bottom of the step cavity. As the step fills up this becomes harder to get the sand to go into the hole. I also tried sticking a thick wire into the hole to push the sand out to the inboard end. Maybe someone has a better idea. If the step was not mounted, this would have been a lot easier to just tilt the step on its side.
After filling the step, I plugged the hole with Rage filler and sanded it smooth.
The process was quite easy, just requires some patience to get the sand into the little hole.
 
Can someone provide the step dimensions?

Major axis dia
Minor axis dia
Leg length
step length
material thickness

Thanks,
 
Found cracks on both steps today during my RV7A inspection. 340 hours. Will drop Vans an email to let them know that another set has failed. I do think that this part is not designed properly. I weigh 205 lbs btw.
 
Both of my steps have cracks that were discovered before the first engine run. There is another plane in my area where the R/H step is also cracked before the first engine run! What is weird that the cracks develop on the compression side of the strut. I don't believe the lead shot or sand will prevent this issue since I have seen the cracks BEFORE the engine was ran.
 
Found my right side step cracked almost all the way through on my RV7A yesterday (280 hours) The left side appears to be fine. It appears that installing access panels is by far the least invasive way to remove the broken part. My step is installed with flush rivets, searching all through this thread and elsewhere, plus through the plans, I can find no consistency on what rivets are used. Should these be steel? My guess would be a AN426AD4-4.

My plan is to have the original step repaired, as Van's hasn't made any changes in the design. If I can find tubing to fit inside the existing to make a sleeve that seems a logical way to make a bombproof step, along with adding sand per Alan's idea.
 
Bikeman55 said:
<snip>
My plan is to have the original step repaired, as Van's hasn't made any changes in the design. If I can find tubing to fit inside the existing to make a sleeve that seems a logical way to make a bombproof step, along with adding sand per Alan's idea.
Click to expand...

Have you verified 'no change in the design' lately? I ask because Ryan at Van's sent me a pair of 'updated' steps (modified design) about a year ago, however, I'm yet to get my 'round tuit' to install them. I have asked Andrew 'Sharkbait' Brandt to put them on his plane since both of his were ready to break-off. The new steps have a 'backing' plate welded to the inside of the step where the cracks are occurring :) Rosie
 
Another data point

The right side step is cracked on a friend's recently purchased, flying -A model. The aircraft only has approx 200 hours since new, mostly flown solo. Waiting to hear a strong consensus on a permanent fix.
 
Rosie said:
Have you verified 'no change in the design' lately? I ask because Ryan at Van's sent me a pair of 'updated' steps (modified design) about a year ago, however, I'm yet to get my 'round tuit' to install them. I have asked Andrew 'Sharkbait' Brandt to put them on his plane since both of his were ready to break-off. The new steps have a 'backing' plate welded to the inside of the step where the cracks are occurring :) Rosie
Click to expand...

That's not a production part.
 
I talked to Van's today and they told me that the steps have not been updated from my RV7 (2010). The tech indicated they have seen about a 10% failure rate on steps. He actually suggested I repair mine vs. buying new.
 
If they only count passenger steps, the number would be closer to 20%. (I'd guess higher than that)
Next time you're at a fly in with a large number of A model RVs have a look for yourself.

I really don't understand why Vans doesn't design them a little better. C'mon Allan we really need an alternative! :D

How about a beefed up oil cooler mount baffling kit while you're at it. :D
 
bret said:
Russ, what are your thoughts on Allan's theory of prop wash work hardning the step. It makes sense to deaden the vibration with sand or shot?
Click to expand...

My step was cracked before the prop was ever installed on the plane:confused:
 
Anyone have any updates/options on this?

Getting close to needing to install my steps and only want to have to do it once...

-Dan
 
I'm not aware of anything new here and I think you really only have the following options.

1) Have a welder who knows what they are doing weld a 2" strap on the inside. (Per Russ's recommendation in Post #6)
2) Drill a hole and put sand in it. (Per Alan's suggestion in Post #65)

Just do something!
 
Hmm. After reading this I'm thinking of leaving my steps off and going the lightweight step-stool route. Less complexity to the build, less drag, better appearance IMO.

Has anyone considered injecting a two-part structural foam? It's used quite a bit in the auto industry, and for a repair of E36 & E46 BMW 3 Series cars. Here, the gauge of metal in the unit body at the rear subframe attachment points was too thin, and tearing would sometimes occur over time from torque loads of the final drive and suspension loads. A combination of reinforcement plates and the foam injected into a critical crossmember solved the problem. Worth a shot.

It seems a spring steel step, made out of the same stuff of the landing gear but of smaller diameter, might work well. No doubt it would be heavier.
 
rightrudder said:
Hmm. After reading this I'm thinking of leaving my steps off and going the lightweight step-stool route. Less complexity to the build, less drag, better appearance IMO.QUOTE]

Don't think about the stool idea any more! You'll be tired of that stool even before you fly.

My passenger side step cracked at about 700 hours. Took it off and welded it. It wasn't that bad. And my baggage floor was pop riveted per the plans.

Mark
Click to expand...
 
Mark Burns said:
rightrudder said:
Hmm. After reading this I'm thinking of leaving my steps off and going the lightweight step-stool route. Less complexity to the build, less drag, better appearance IMO.QUOTE]

Don't think about the stool idea any more! You'll be tired of that stool even before you fly.

My passenger side step cracked at about 700 hours. Took it off and welded it. It wasn't that bad. And my baggage floor was pop riveted per the plans.

Mark
Click to expand...

Just weighing the options, pre-fuselage build. I just want my RV to be as maintenance-free as possible.

Another step-stool choice:

http://www.bedbathandbeyond.com/1/1/27997-kikkerland-easy-fold-step-stools.html
Click to expand...
 
So, mine is Still fully cracked on the inside, and I Still haven't fixed it, and it is Still there, and I Still use it each and every time I get in the airplane. It has become part of my subconscious pre-flight to see if the crack has moved. It hasn't to my amazement. I AM the welder that will fix it when the time comes, but... I'll get around to it.
 
scard said:
So, mine is Still fully cracked on the inside, and I Still haven't fixed it, and it is Still there, and I Still use it each and every time I get in the airplane. It has become part of my subconscious pre-flight to see if the crack has moved. It hasn't to my amazement. I AM the welder that will fix it when the time comes, but... I'll get around to it.
Click to expand...

Maybe pressurize the tubing of the step, and then have an annunciator light go off when the pressure drops? :) IIRC, Porsche pressurized the tube frame of the 917 to detect cracks this way.

I do have access to a MIG welder, so I could attend to it. What precautions need to be taken, if any, when welding so as not to fry the EFIS? I remember reading a mention of this somewhere.
 
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beware the hinged top step!

rightrudder said:
Mark Burns said:
Just weighing the options, pre-fuselage build. I just want my RV to be as maintenance-free as possible.

Another step-stool choice:

http://www.bedbathandbeyond.com/1/1/27997-kikkerland-easy-fold-step-stools.html
Click to expand...

I had a similar one, and put my foot right thru it ( I weigh 185)......the one with the solid top seems more durable...Home Depot had one for $9, and it folds just as flat..but taller overall. It still fits in the baggage compartment easily.
My $.02
Click to expand...
 
Reinforce now, before installation

Doug:

Suggest reinforcing (aforementioned 2" strap, or an exterior sleeve) before installation.

My pax-side step leg cracked after ~100 hours of flying, and stepless wasn't a feasible option, since CINCHOUSE has short legs. I didn't want to be the chauffeur hauling out the step and handing her down at every landing; I'm selfish that way.

I decided to repair promptly, rather than find a stub on postflight; I didn't want to drop the step on someone/something, then have to buy/fabricate more components to make the repair.

Since the repair, I examine both steps closely at every pre- and post-flight inspection, and there is no new evidence of cracking.


Good luck!
 
Thanks. The step stool routine could certainly get very old, very quickly! Since the steps aren't installed yet (heck, the fuselage is probably still in the middle of the Pacific, churning along at 3 knots in its container), so I can be proactive and weld on the reinforcements. Thanks for the input.
 
Anyone have some pictures of the extra plate welded on?

Thinking that might be the way to go.

Thanks,

-Dan
 
Beware ...

scard said:
So, mine is Still fully cracked on the inside, and I Still haven't fixed it, and it is Still there, and I Still use it each and every time I get in the airplane. It has become part of my subconscious pre-flight to see if the crack has moved. It hasn't to my amazement. I AM the welder that will fix it when the time comes, but... I'll get around to it.
Click to expand...

Scott (and others)

A friend of mine had a cracked step on his RV9A. We noticed it and monitored the crack. There was no "apparent" progression of the crack, BUT!!

One day while at my hangar for some avionics work, as I stepped on it, the step just "bent and broke". The crack was on the bottom.

Fortunately, I caught myself. I knew there was a crack and was careful stepping on it.

The point of the message is that the step can give way at any moment.

We replaced it with far less trouble than initially envisioned. Should have done it earlier.

Your mileage may vary.

James
 
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