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LiFePo battery?

I have been using the Shorai LFX18L1-BS12 for about a year. It replaced an Odyssey PC680.

It's performance has been very satisfactory.

My engine is an O-360-A1A with AFP fuel injection, 1 Slick Mag and a P-Mag. Skytec starter, B&C 60amp alternator and B&C voltage regulator.

Ben
-6A
410 hrs.
 
thank goodness for those wonderful chinese motorcycle batteries
what was the warranty again did they say when installed in an airplane ?
cheapest price i see is $166 on amazon w free shipping
so, I'll have to beat that.
 
For those who are concerned about the warranty, there is a company, "Aerovoltz" that is selling LiFePo batteries for aircraft with a three year warranty.
 
 AEROVOLTZ Battery warranty is for function only. Warranty does not cover physical damage, misuse, or improper charging. AEROVOLTZ is not liable for any damage to either person or personal property resulting from the use of this product. If the battery is physically damaged in any way the claim will be denied. AEROVOLTZ extends a warranty only to parts manufactured by AEROVOLTZ.
 Conditions not covered under warranty:
o Hard short of the terminals by direct contact.
o Damage from emersion in liquid.
o Cell damage as a result of being drained below 30% of capacity.
o Abuse or physical damage of any kind.
o Over charging or damage as a result of a defective charger not purchased from AEROVOLTZ.
o Damage from use in excess of cranking capacity.
 The 3 Year Limited Warranty is on a pro-rated basis based on the original date of purchase.
o 1 ? 6 Months ? Free Replacement
o 7 ? 12 Months ? 75% discount from retail
o 13 ? 24 Months ? 50% discount from retail
o 24 ? 36 Months ? 25% discount from retail
 
humptybump said:
Since the airplane is almost exclusively day-VFR at the moment, I went with the Shorai LFX18L1-BS12 (12v 18Ah 270 CCA). The battery's specifications are slightly better than the Odyssey 680.
I]
Click to expand...

PC680 CCA it 680A for 5 sec

the Shorai is only 270A

notice any issues during start?
 
Interesting on the "680 for 5 sec". The spec sheet I read on the Odessey website only mentioned "CCA 220A". I would assume the 220 vs 270 is an apples to apples comparison. The Shoria does not specify a burst capability.

With my first test, the O320 start experience was exactly the same. My conclusion I the PC680 was not the issue but rather, as Clark suggested, it is a characteristic of the starter.

I'll keep testing the LiFePO4 battery and if it does not exhibit any undesirable characteristics, I'll keep it. It's 13lbs lighter and a lot easier to service !

I did have to fabricate a new holding assembly since the Shoria is so much smaller than the Odessey. The funny bit is the RV-8 originally had a "conventional aircraft battery" and the builder fabricated a new holder for the Odessey since it was "so much smaller". There is now a lot of empty space in the original battery tray :)
 
Glen - i'm sure starting temperature is a factor too. Wonder if the start CCA would work in colder climates? Please keep us posted. Thanks!
 
I'm sure engine / oil / air temp will play a factor but I'm not sure how much data I'll bravo to provide. My plane is hangared and the Hagar rarely gets below 50, even in winter.

Thus far, all I can say is, if I hadn't done the battery swap myself and check the terminals as part of my preflight, I'd never have know the plane had a different battery. That could be construed as a good thing or a bad thing. Thus far, all I can say is it is lighter. That may not be a good enough reason for most to change battery technologies.

I'll keep posting as new data is gathered.

I do want to acknowledge rocketbob. Without his torture testing, I probably would not have given this a try. Thus far I am glad I did and I will be really glad if/when I move up to an IFR panel and want redundancy. As light as these are for the power, designing a dual battery system is now less about weight and more about system design and workload (but that's easer too since Ironflight did a lot of the heavy brain work for us :) )
 
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Great info all! I am just about to the point of electrical system and want to use dual Aerovoltz or similar so, this is very timely. Please keep posting info you find out
 
Hey Glen - thanks for leading the way! I am most interested in how well it charges over time with a stock alternator - I have read that they might require a slightly higher charging voltage, and if you don't give it to them, then they never get fully charged. So.....let us know every once in awhile how it's doing. It turned out that we didn't need a lighter battery in the back of Tsam, but I might replace the backup battery with one when it comes to it - I figure it would have more hour capacity with the avionics only than we have fuel on board....

Paul
 
Paul, I'll keep an eye on the charging profile. The documentation for the battery was very specific on a few characteristics. Not more than 14.8v, not more than 18A charge current, and no "high voltage charge" (which they describe some systems to to purge oxides off of the plates). I'm away from th hangar but will get the exact parameters when I get back.

On my flights, thus far, I am seeing very much the same post-start alternator charging current rate which falls off very quickly to minimal load. The voltage is stable at 14v to 14.2v.

I should point out that I have not changed anything other than the battery. The alternator, solenoids, relays, circuits, switches, and my operating procedures are unchanged (thus far).

Again, I'll capture data for each flight and report both condition and any trends I observe.
 
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Please be careful when using these batteries as a backup power source. Almost all of them (Shorai, Aerovoltz, Ballistic) are rated using the marketing friendly "Pb-eq" system. Basically the actual battery capacity in Ah is 1/3 the Pb-eq rating on the label. That's works great for starting engines, but could get you in trouble if you're counting on the battery to supply 6 amps for 3 hours.

From the Shorai FAQ (http://www.shoraipower.com/t-faq.aspx):

The internal "completely discharged" capacity of a Shorai LFX is 1/3 the rated "PBeq" capacity. For example, the LFX18 12V series have 6Ah cells internally.

Fly safe.
 
RV8 battery in the tail

I have planned for a battery in the tail due to W&B considerations, but these new LiFePO4 batteries are so small and light and cheap that it looks like I should reconsider this.

If I add up the weight of the Odyssey pc680 (15lbs) and the huge cable needed between the starter and the tail it seems like I can make things much simpler and lighter by putting it on the FW.

One open question is the "cranking power". Odyssey say that they have something like 680 "cranking amp" and the highest Shorai battery seems to have about 300. They do say that due to the reduced internal resistance that they crank better than lead-acid batteries:

Q. How does the LFX "CCA" cold-cranking rating compare to lead-acid Ahr ratings?
A.CCA ratings another way that lead-acid makers have tried to convey starting power. Unfortunately, their typical spec is based on a "half-nominal-voltage" delivery. That is, at their CCA spec, you can expect 7.2V delivered, at best; and 7.2V isn't useful, as you won't start a vehicle with it...

In any case, CCA ratings aren't about actually drawing that much current from a battery. The typical vehicle which uses a 200A CCA-rated battery, for example, will only draw 45A~80A from the battery. What the CCA rating really intends to convey is how much voltage will be delivered. Higher CCA rated batteries will deliver more voltage at the same actual cranking current. Our LFX are CCA rated to deliver 9V for a 5-second crank at the CCA rated current. (in fact, our average voltage delivered will be even higher during a 30-second crank. But our CCA ratings are intended to indicate not only a measure of voltage at true cranking currents, but also proper usage, which lead-acid do not) At actual cranking currents - which are always well below CCA, LFX deliver up to two volts more than an equivalent-CCA-rated lead acid battery. Current alone won't start anything. It is the current multiplied by voltage that does the work (watts). In reality, this means that you can multiply the LFX CCA rating by 1.5x to compare to a Lead Acid battery CCA. For example, our 270A CCA LFX18 series provides about the same cranking voltage as a 405A-CCA-rated lead acid battery (from a quality lead-acid maker; some CCA specs we've tested on the cheapest lead acid seemed to be plucked from thin air).
Click to expand...

Has anyone tested these batteries on a Lycoming?
 
I swapped out an Odessey 680 for a Shoria LFX18L1-BS12 (12v 18Ah 270 CCA).

My O320 with a Magnaflite starter , Catto prop, and inertia ring starts exactly the same.
 
humptybump said:
I swapped out an Odessey 680 for a Shoria LFX18L1-BS12 (12v 18Ah 270 CCA).

My O320 with a Magnaflite starter , Catto prop, and inertia ring starts exactly the same.
Click to expand...

How long have you been using the Shorai? This looks like reasonably low risk, low cost weight savings from all I have read about the Shorai LiFePo.

Also good to see another proud "red class" -8 owner out there!
 
Low Pass said:
How long have you been using the Shorai?
Click to expand...

I've only had the LiFePo battery in for the past two months. I'm probably a typical flyer. I tend to average flying about once week. The reality is more like 10 days between most flights and then a round trip over a weekend. So the plane sits frequently. If you were to look at my APRS tracker, you'd see lots of gaps between trips. All that is to say, the Shorai doesn't seem to care if it cranks daily or weekly.

Paul Dye asked that I keep an eye on the charge and voltage. Is what you'd expect from most any battery - the charge is visible for a few minutes rihtcaftervenginecstart and then it drops to about zero. Voltage for the battery is close to 14v without the alternator and the ship's voltage is right at 14.5v consistently.

If you go back hru this thread, the battery has been in a number of planes and some for over a year already. I'm relatively new but am very happy and would definitely go with a LiFePo battery before considering the whole "battery in back" option for CG.
 
Glen - could you pleas share the location of ur LiFePo and how you mounted it? (Firewall hot or cold side)?
 
I'll have to dig up a photo.

In the mean time, my battery is approximately 3/5th down on the right hand side of the hot firewall. It is visible, albeit difficult to reach, from the oil fill door.
 
BMI Batteries (Australia) with whom I have no affilition make incredibly high quality battery packs and chargers.

I first came to find them searching for an alternative to A123 batteries which are essentially the industry standary but priced accordingly.

Charge and Discharge curves are awesome on Lifepo4 and they stand up to the rigours of harsh environments well.

With a quality BMS I wouldn't hesitate to use one in an aircraft.

w/kg are hard to beat, only by LiPo, but there is no way I'd put a large scale LiPo in an aircraft that I was occupying.

If it weren't for the weight disadvantage I'd convert all my rc aircraft to Lifepo4 in a heatbeat.
 
there is no way I'd put a large scale LiPo in an aircraft that I was occupying.
Click to expand...

Why not? I understand that that Lithium Iron batteries don't have the explosive personality of the Lithium Ion batteries. What drawback are you aware of?
 
Sorry Humptybump I was referring to ColoCardinals question, I noticed I had hit reply instead of quote.

Ideally you'd want a BMS that allowed both balance discharge and charge, most normally only balance charge. The former will substantially accelerate charging times as the charger/bms will spend more time charging than balancing.

You have to seriously punish a Lifepo4 before damaging it much less destroying it.
 
LiFPo battery

It would be interesting to hear which size and brand of LifePo battery that everyone is using and how long you've been "testing" it for us latecomers.
I'm reasonably convinced that this is the direct I'm going to take. One thing causing hesitation is a LiFePo battery's intolerance to cold. It can get cold here in Colorado!
Thanks guys
 
I'm considering the larger Shorai LFX36A3-BS12 battery, which weighs 4.9 lbs, but I'm choking on the price!
It would still fit where my PC680 resides, and it has nice bolt down brass connectors recessed in the top.
 
posting on here so i can follow this interesting thread. thanks guys. :)

qwjeqwfytt4lq33uhqm1g5h.jpg
 
There's an easier way than that, turbo. At the top of the thread there's a button marked "Thread Tools" that opens a drop-box. At the bottom of this list is an option "Subscribe to this thread", and if you click that, you're well, subscribed to the thread without posting in it.

:)
 
SHIPCHIEF said:
I'm considering the larger Shorai LFX36A3-BS12 battery, which weighs 4.9 lbs, but I'm choking on the price!
It would still fit where my PC680 resides, and it has nice bolt down brass connectors recessed in the top.
Click to expand...

I have the 2.1lb Shoria. It's a cranking beast. I got to see the full range of charge state till I found out my Mags were grounded:)

Price is very similar to the PC680
 
I have run the shorai lfx18 for a little less than a year. It's performance has been indistinguishable from the Odessey 680 that i removed pre-maturely.

I'm doing a panel upgrade and and my primary instruments, including engine monitor are now electric. This prompted me to need a backup battery. While the "18" was overkill for the job, it's 2.2lb weight was so much less than the alternatives that I decided to take my primary battery and make it the backup and install the lfx27 as my new primary battery.

I have been running a number of endurance tests on the "18". It can run everything in my panel for more than 3hrs.

This setup has an interesting side benefit. How many backup batteries do you know which are capable of starting a Lycoming ?

I know LiFePO4 battery technology is not for everyone. That's OK. I am using it and continue to test and gather data. I suspect it will be several years before the data will (or won't) support my decision.
 
Thanks for the update Humpty, im going to get a couple and mimic what you have done shamelessly:D

Rhino, saw your sig. Sent you a pm.
 
Jesse, I have a multi-part article that goes with my panel upgrade. I will be uploading it in about a week. I wrote one section on the design for the backup power.

I designed a self contained essential bus / charging circuit. It is small and simple to use (2 ins and 1 out) and has been running flawlessly.

It may be of interest to anyone looking to add backup power to an existing configuration (or starting fresh).
 
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lfx18

humptybump said:
I have run the shorai lfx18 for a little less than a year. It's performance has been indistinguishable from the Odessey 680 that i removed pre-maturely.

I'm doing a panel upgrade and and my primary instruments, including engine monitor are now electric. This prompted me to need a backup battery. While the "18" was overkill for the job, it's 2.2lb weight was so much less than the alternatives that I decided to take my primary battery and make it the backup and install the lfx27 as my new primary battery.

I have been running a number of endurance tests on the "18". It can run everything in my panel for more than 3hrs.

This setup has an interesting side benefit. How many backup batteries do you know which are capable of starting a Lycoming ?

I know LiFePO4 battery technology is not for everyone. That's OK. I am using it and continue to test and gather data. I suspect it will be several years before the data will (or won't) support my decision.
Click to expand...

Just saw it at Amazon.com for $149.40 shipped free.:D
 
I'm using the same -18 Shorai battery and although I haven't had it installed for as long, it works the same as the 680. One side note, it sat in my hangar for 6 months before I installed it and it fired the RV8 right up, no problem, without out any charging.
I am also installing the Shorai in another RV8 and decided that we would use two of the -18 batteries, one for primary and one for back up. Both are mounted in the rear battery tray. Since they are side by side, we hooked up a second master solenoid that puts the batteries in parallel by turning on a second master switch. This gives the advantage of being able to start the plane, using the back up battery, if the primary battery gets run down. Weight is still a lot less than one PC680.
 
Ok, im about to drop the hammer a a couple of these batteries and cant figure out what the difference is in the "a" vs. the "L" versions of each size. Lil help?
 
Several people at my field are having good luck with the Aerovoltz LiFePo batteries as well. These have a 3 year warranty for use in aircraft and a ceramic plate inside to absorb excess heat in case of a shorted battery. I'm installing a 16 cell and 8 cell back up (for my 2nd electronic ignition) now. Still much lighter than a single odyssey.

I would recommend ordering from a known vendor. Myself and another local have had issues receiving product from another vendor that was listed as "in-stock".
 
digidocs said:
Please be careful when using these batteries as a backup power source. Almost all of them (Shorai, Aerovoltz, Ballistic) are rated using the marketing friendly "Pb-eq" system. Basically the actual battery capacity in Ah is 1/3 the Pb-eq rating on the label. That's works great for starting engines, but could get you in trouble if you're counting on the battery to supply 6 amps for 3 hours.

From the Shorai FAQ (http://www.shoraipower.com/t-faq.aspx):

The internal "completely discharged" capacity of a Shorai LFX is 1/3 the rated "PBeq" capacity. For example, the LFX18 12V series have 6Ah cells internally.

Fly safe.
Click to expand...

I would like to keep alive what David said since I am interested in changing my PC680 with a LifePo4 battery. My concern is not only cranking the engine, but powering for almost 30' essential loads, since this is asked from IFR rules that apply to my airplane.

Today I performed a 30' capacity discharge test in flight on my 2 years old PC680. I calculated a 45-90' endurance with a 10.5-17.5 amperes load (included heated pitot) before going in the air. Voltage dropped to well below 12V after 10' of flight (11,6-11,8) and after 20' of flight GNS430W main radio shut off.

I just read from Odyssey sheet that the time/discharge table is designed for a 10.02V final voltage. That is pretty unuseful, since my radio was dead when voltage dropped to 11,5.

So, I understand that LifePo4 batteries internal completed discharge capacity is 1/3 of an acid lead battery, but it also seems and it is also said in the FAQ from Shorai that their batteries can be squeezed nearly to their completed discharge. See the Shorai table: http://www.shoraipower.com/FAQ.html. Yes, I looked that the voltage indicated is a no-load voltage. But maybe it should be investigated if a correspondant Ah battery will give more endurance and still remain above 12V.
 
humptybump said:
I have run the Shorai lfx18 for a little less than a year. It's performance has been indistinguishable from the Odyssey 680 that i removed prematurely.

I'm doing a panel upgrade and and my primary instruments, including engine monitor are now electric. This prompted me to need a backup battery. While the "18" was overkill for the job, it's 2.2lb weight was so much less than the alternatives that I decided to take my primary battery and make it the backup and install the lfx27 as my new primary battery.

I have been running a number of endurance tests on the "18". It can run everything in my panel for more than 3hrs.

snipped
Click to expand...

Glen,
What was the total amp draw of your instrument panel during your endurance testing of the Shorai battery? Is that 3+ hour test of all electrical components? Or just the essential bus? What about endurance of not only the instrument panel, but also the electric fuel pumps, electronic ignition(s), etc. ?
Bob Nuckholls recommends a 2 year replacement cycle for AGM & wet lead-acid batteries that are going to be relied on for alternator out endurance operation of the aircraft. This is because, while these batteries can usually crank the engine for 4+ years, their ability to deliver rated amp/hours of power, deteriorates with time. Does the performance of LiFePo batteries in the back up power regime deteriorate over time, like the lead acid batteries do? Does anyone know of data detailing how the LiFePo batteries behave in this usage regime? Is there in info regarding this in their Product Data Sheets?
Charlie
 
chaskuss said:
Glen,
What was the total amp draw of your instrument panel during your endurance testing of the Shorai battery? Is that 3+ hour test of all electrical components?
Click to expand...

I do not have the current draw for that round of tests as the current sensor had not been installed. The test included the following items:

primary EFIS, backup EFIS/EMS, COMM receive only, audio panel, AP but no active (i.e. no servos), Garmin 795
​
Items not included:

transponder (I did not have a dummy load for it), landing or taxi lights, strobes, nav lights, APRS, COMM transmit (I did not have a dummy load for it)
​

The big current draws would be the landing and taxi lights. Next would be strobes. My nav lights are LED so they would be third in line. I do not have a heated pitot or an IFR rated panel GPS.

If I lost both my alternator and my main battery, I'd be looking to land long before 3 hours.

Observation during the test: It was interesting to see the voltage drop quickly from around 14.4v to about 13.6v followed by a very slow drop down to about 12.1v. It continued slowly down to when I ended the test at 11.8v.
 
Glen,
Thanks for the details on your testing. I don't think anyone would be worrying about power for external lights in a power emergency. My thoughts are how long would the Shoria be able to support items on an essential bus, the electronic ignition(s), if you have no magnetos, and possibly, the electric fuel pump [2.5 to 3 amps running] if you had a worst case scenario [multiple failures, alternator(s) & mechanical fuel pump.
Charlie
 
LiFePo

This thread has been very enlightening. Finally made a decision as to which battery I'll use. Because I'm using a backup alternator and not a backup battery I decided to use a #3case size Shorai LFX24L3-BS12. I can move up or down on the battery capacity that way without changing the battery box size each time. An added benefit is that after a couple years service in the plane, this size will fit in my motorcycle. I won't feel so bad about keeping a new one on board the a/c that way :D . I wonder if it will fit in my Kubota? That would be a perfect third and final stop for it on the way to the recycle bin. Two years in each sounds about right!
 
I sure agree with Carl.
Airplanes and tractors are a natural. They belong together. Airplane = light and new and perfect. Tractor = Heavy and 'used-but-good' and 'safe to operate'.
Putting an old airplane battery in the tractor is what I'm all about.
I draw the line at pouring 25 hour airplane oil in the tractor tho- :rolleyes:
 
Funny this thread popped up. I got a call from a fellow RV-8 owner on this very subject.

My RV-8 has has the Shorai 18A for 18 months now and it is behaving completely normal. When I swapped out my Odyssey PC680 the only thing I change was my W&B calculations. I don't have any special charging system for it.

As I've noted before, I do not treat my LiFePO4 battery with kid gloves. No special treatment and I do. Of fly every day or even every week. It has sat for a month without any special care. My hangar only gets down to about 40 so that may or may not be a consideration.

I'm happy to answer any specific questions.
 
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humptybump said:
I'm happy to answer any specific questions.
Click to expand...

I have one in the hangar; I'm just waiting for the condition inspection next month to install it.

Question: Did you use the PC-680 battery box? If so, did you use the foam shims supplied with the Shorai battery to get it snug in the box?
 
My rv-8 originally had a battery box big enough for a Concorde (?). Then an adapter to get down to an Odyssey. I just took out that adapter box and created a similar and even smaller one for the Shorai.
 
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LiFePo battery failure

In order to study the behavior of the Shorai LFX battery I installed a 27 AH Shorai battery in my newly restored BMW 2002tii. The battery spun the engine nearly to idle speed, something I have never seen before. I took the car to the air conditioning shop to have hoses built and to charge and test the system. After thoroughly briefing them to not discharge the battery, I left the car with them. When I returned to pick up the car they had a 50A industrial starter/charger attached with the voltage turned up to 15 volts. The battery was very hot to the touch, and could not crank the engine. The case had bulged slightly, and some green electrolyte was leaking from the top to bottom join seam. But no explosion, fire, or any other drama except that the battery was destroyed. The electrolyte seemed to not be corrosive.

I called Shorai to ask what might have happened. They provided no answer, but insisted that the battery be retuned for inspection. They even provided a new replacement battery! I later called a technician at Shorai who recommended a 36AH battery. So far the 36 AH battery is working perfectly with a 30 pound weight saving over the stock battery. The new 27 AH Battery was sold to a VAF member.

I am planning to install a 36 AH Shorai when my aft mounted Concord fails.

Rocket bob, have you yet been able to destroy your Shorai batteries? If so what was the mode that you experienced?
 
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