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Airport Dog?

Tony_T

Well Known Member
Patron
Most, if not all, airports have signs that warn about pets, my airport included. Big sign right at the gate that pets have to be under positive control and also posted on the hangar row end hangars.

So, today I have my airplane rolled out of the hangar and in the taxiway when a gentleman drives up to his hangar across the taxiway and lets his big dog out of the car. While I am doing preflight checks he starts to play fetch with his dog. Now i?m pretty easy going but this tics me off.

I might mention I?m relatively new at this airport only about 5 months and have seen this guy a few times and with the dog loose. I told him that the loose dog was unacceptable and that when I am going to start my airplane he has to have the dog under positive control. Anyway, he took the dog into the hangar and shut his door, but came out a few minutes later, put the dog in the car, and left.

Well, I am friendly with another fellow in a nearby hangar and I asked him if he knew this guy with the dog. He said ?Oh yes, that?s Dave?s dog. Don?t worry, he is an airport dog and won?t be a problem?. ?I ain?t buying that?, I say.

I don?t want to create turmoil so I?m not ready to report this to airport management quite yet, I need to talk again to the dog?s owner, but I don?t think there is an ?airport dog?. That implies that the dog can be loose but still under the owner?s positive control. I don?t think so. The dog can become excited and run. If it runs into a spinning propeller, it would be bad news for dog, bad news for dog?s owner, and bad news for the airplane. Everyone would be a loser.

So, I?m wondering what y?all think about ?airport dogs? running loose. I think I know the answer though.
 
Perhaps taking a breath as the first step would be a good idea.

Sure - posted signs and all that, got it. I offer that our pilot communities govern themselves well without getting the lawyers involved.

So how about just asking the guy to put the dog on a lead when you want to start up. That way you both will be good neighbors and the dog gets a day at the airport to play catch.

You never know - you may need a favor from this pilot at somepoint down the road.

Carl
 
FWIW, being the new kid on the block, I would try to catch up with the owner and explain that you're aware of 'plane-friendly' dogs still getting hit by the prop or otherwise putting themselves and/or their owners at risk, and that you'd like him on the leash when you're going to start turning engines. I wouldn't go straight to the ARO/airport owner just yet.

If you want to show the owner a specific example: THIS is what can happen to a dog who is 'used to' being around aircraft.

From the report:
The owner assured me that the dog was used to being around aircraft, vehicles, guns, boats and other vehicles found on stations and promised me it would not get close enough to the aircraft to be a problem.

<SNIP>

The dog then disappeared to the rear of the aircraft and a moment later there was a very slight bump from the propeller area followed by a fairly gruesome scene on the left side of the aircraft.

And what happened to the prop:
It was going to be at least 24 hours before we could get it assessed on site so I elected to fly to the nearest phone ? 18 minutes away by air ? and seek advice. I decided to fly it out. I kept a close eye on every engine instrument for that whole 18 minutes. I watched for oil pressure or RPM fluctuations and listened to the engine with a headset cup off one ear. The engine and prop ran perfectly and I slowly talked myself into thinking that everything was OK. It was only a slight bump after all.

We touched down at Daly River and shut down. Before I called base for advice I went for another push-and-pull test on the blades and I almost died of shock when the first blade I touched nearly came out of the hub in my hand. It rolled about in its socket making grinding noises and getting looser by the second. The blade could be easily rotated a full 360 degrees by hand.
 
I agree with Carl about ?taking a breath.? But there are reasons why pets shouldn?t run loose at an airport and especially around airplane parking, taxi areas.

A responsible pet owner should not only take extreme care of their pet but also consider the repercussions of their pet causing an accident and/or damage to person or property. I assume the owner wouldn?t feel good about his dog being injured/killed from a prop strike, people or aircraft hurt, or want to bare the expense of an engine tear down/prop repair.

Animals and kids just have a way of doing the unexpected. It?s our responsibility to protect them just like it?s our responsibility to follow airport rules. The unexpected does happen - it?s just a matter of time. Remember accidents usually result from a string of poor choices.
 
Dogs loose on an airport is unacceptable. Why would any responsible owner risk injury to their dog or paying for damage to a prop/engine/ airplane? They are simply not thinking and not responsible and need to have a talking to. ONE talk, next time go to the airport manager.

Last year, a big dog came running down the taxiway, while I was moving along at 10-12 knots or so- heading at a tangent right towards my prop with the owner in pursuit some ways back.

I slammed on the brakes and cringed waiting for the seemingly inevitable crunch as the dog disappeared from view under the nose. Don't know if he missed the prop by 3 inches or 3 feet but it was CLOSE as he brushed the whip antennas on the belly as he ran under the plane.

The dog bounded off up the taxiway behind me with owner still in pursuit but tiring quickly. I flashed him a dirty look and the bird simultaneously.

I certainly didn't want to watch my prop splintering or the guy's dog turned to hamburger, it was just by luck that neither happened. It was a heart in the throat feeling I didn't need.

I tried to look for the guy on my bike after I shut down a few minutes later. No luck, which is probably fortunate. He was probably hiding is his hangar and thanking his lucky stars the dog was ok and that I didn't find him.

I'm guessing he may have learned his lesson because he could clearly see Fido running right for the prop... I imagine he had the same sick feeling I did.
 
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I would suggest you preface any interaction with a sincere ?I really love dogs? and mean it.
I have absolutely believe you are a dog lover, and are acting in the dogs interest. It really is the innocent party in this.
 
As an aside, the airport manager, IA, and DPE at a local airport used to have a pack of about 10 airport dogs under his stewardship. They had free run of the whole place. On at least one occasion, I had to abort a takeoff because they strayed onto the runway after I began my takeoff roll.

Takeoff aborted. Taxi back, try it again.

This was the same airport and airport manager where they utilized an ad-hoc IFR approach using a VOR radial and a guy on a handheld radio to tell the inbound aircraft when it passed overhead so it could begin the 270 turn to land. I guess it worked because nobody flying "the approach" ever smacked in.

I have a feeling that when I test flew a rather ratty Aeronca Chief that was owned by the same guy, a check of the logbooks might have indicated it was out of annual...

Some of these little fields are a walk on the wild side.
 
I generally agree with Carl. Talk to the dog owner and get to know him and his dog. Some owners/animals are well trained and some are not. If you still believe there is going to be an issue, clearly let the owner know that you are concerned that his pet and your aircraft may have a potential conflict and you would prefer his dog remain in the hangar while you are preparing to fly, and when you return from a flight. Most airports are communities of varying people, personalities, and casually accepted practices, that may have been in place long before you arrived.
Good luck!
 
Caveat, I love dogs, had three for many years until recently. Currently dogless as m'lady says it is time to travel, no more dogs until we are 80. :(

First, positive control can mean different things to different people. I ran into this with a few neighbors, as our rural county does not have a leash law, just a need for 'positive control.' To me, and to the county animal control officers, that means basically a pet that comes when called, with a little latitude given for the presence of other animals. Certain neighbors, who were used to leash laws in a city setting, just could not wrap their head around the fact that a dog running ahead of me by some tens of yards was still in positive control. Regardless, when ever there was an issue, I was happy to alter my dogs interaction with others who did not see eye to eye with me on this issue. I remained friends with those that asked for some consideration in a pleasant manner.

Second, just because an animal is domesticated does not make it any less of an animal to me in an airport environment. A dog running free familiar with the airport environment is equivalent (to me) to the deer that routinely graze next to the taxiways, oblivious to the machines that pass them by. Are there going to be unfortunate interactions from both of these animals from time to time? Yep. Part of aviation life, to me anyway. Others, not so much, they will not move if any animal is nearby: deer, dog, rugrat, makes no matter. That is there choice, mine is different. I respect their choice, I hope they respect mine.
 
Things Go Bad quickly..

We recently lost our little dog Scooby (Been on VAF in his mini RV4 pedal plane), but he was always tethered when on the airport. Unfortunately, there have been local neighbors who used our airport as a dog park, even against the posted signs...a couple years ago, one such trespassing neighbor was walking their large breed dog along the perimeter tree line (leashless), and it bolted in full run at a landing vintage Cessna 172 with a father (pilot) and young daughter. He was in "flare out" when the dog attacked it, causing prop strike and buckling the nose gear aft into the firewall. The dog was killed instantly, and the airplane was heavily damaged. The situation could have had fatal results if he would have tried to avoid hitting the dog. The dog owner and his wife where hostile and argumentative over the incident, criticizing the pilot for killing their dog. Fortunately, he is a preacher and resisted beating the dog owner to a pulp on the spot. The whole event took months to settle, and the dog owner eventually paid out for the repairs, but never even apologized. To me, ANY unleashed dog is unacceptable on an airport, as they can NEVER be fully predictable.
 
Yes an I don't know.

I have seen dogs getting propped down threw the years and being picked up in toe-sacks. I have also seen deer and other animals get propped as well as people. Even with this understanding I still try to work with the other pilots that will listen to keep it safe for every one and thing on the field that I am on.
You have to do what you are comfortable with and hopefully use good judgment. What we do as operators of aircraft will never be totally safe and needs risk assessment. I hope you guys can work it out.

just a thought, Yours, R.E.A. III # 80888
 
Whether we love or hate dogs is immaterial. The dog is just doing what dogs do- barking, running, chasing etc. The issue is with the owner keeping their dog under control so it doesn't get injured or killed or damage an aircraft or injure someone. Simple stuff. Obey the rules, use common sense and everyone stays happy and safe. It's an owner issue, not a dog issue.

I've seen FBO and club dogs and cats who are just interested in human attention and laying in a sunny spot- not chasing airplanes. Always nice to have them around, adding some character and warmth to the surroundings.
 
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A local cropduster close to me has a 3-legged dog that was not born that way. The dog no longer desires to chase airplanes either.
 
I?ve read here several people who indicate that it?s personal choice as to how a particular pilot should respond to a dog owner who lets their dog run loose. I strongly disagree! That?s equivalent to saying ?each man for himself.?

It?s time to end the conversation and politely say, the next time you observe his dog being allowed to run loose you?ll report him and the airport manager to the FAA. PERIOD.

I love dogs but love people more.
 
Airport Dogs!

?.Actually our airport could benefit eminency by introducing a couple of
large, quick running, guard dog type personalities to the mix. Every AM
until about ten, and every evening from dusk until the following AM our
airport is visited by hundreds of large COYOTE. They are not particularly
afraid of people, and have no fear whatsoever of airplanes. They run in
front of you when taxying, landing Etc. I had one run in my hangar and
steel a sandwich off the table! In the evening you can sit there and count
fifty or so trotting around the airport. The airport has an eight foot fence
completely around it so the dogs won't get away. The COYOTES hop over
this fence like it isn't there and don't even touch it. They sleep on the
runway in the AM to get warm, and usually don't move for aircraft landing.
"Airport dogs " could do a great service by running them off and
contributing to safety concerns at the airport. Or, we could just put up a
sign that says "Trespassing Coyote Will Be Prosecuted". Thanks, Allan..:rolleyes:
 
pellet gun

?.Actually our airport could benefit eminency by introducing a couple of
large, quick running, guard dog type personalities to the mix. Every AM
until about ten, and every evening from dusk until the following AM our
airport is visited by hundreds of large COYOTE. They are not particularly
afraid of people, and have no fear whatsoever of airplanes. They run in
front of you when taxying, landing Etc. I had one run in my hangar and
steel a sandwich off the table! In the evening you can sit there and count
fifty or so trotting around the airport. The airport has an eight foot fence
completely around it so the dogs won't get away. The COYOTES hop over
this fence like it isn't there and don't even touch it. They sleep on the
runway in the AM to get warm, and usually don't move for aircraft landing.
"Airport dogs " could do a great service by running them off and
contributing to safety concerns at the airport. Or, we could just put up a
sign that says "Trespassing Coyote Will Be Prosecuted". Thanks, Allan..:rolleyes:
Not sure it's legal in California, but a pellet gun works great, if not, a .22 rifle is also quite effective. :D
 
One can create a long list of most likely to kill/injure/damage with most likely at the top, second most likely as #2, and so on in descending order of risk. Whenever someone is focused on something like #274 on the list, it's clearly an axe to grind (some form of cognitive bias) OR else they've controlled or mitigated #1-273. It's never the latter.

A hot headed pilot is a greater risk to aviation safety than is a trained dog comfortable in its environment under direct supervision and control of it's owner with a history of only appropriate behavior.
 
I've seen some airport dogs and they've never been an issue. While I wouldn't bring a dog to the airport and play fetch, if I'm traveling with one, I would likely have the dog run a bit at during a stop.

I'm unaware of any FAA guidelines that prevent it and I'm also in the camp that positive control can be off leash. A leash can also be meaningless... I've seen a number of dogs run loose because they owners couldn't control a leashed dog.
 
My Pomeranian likes hangin' at the hangar.

She only wears her lead if we go over to the Beacon, which is dog friendly on the patio.

I think the large number of live-in hangars at T67 contributes to the number of airport dogs. One guy even has an airport pig! Haven't seen it on a leash. :D
 
One can create a long list of most likely to kill/injure/damage with most likely at the top, second most likely as #2, and so on in descending order of risk. Whenever someone is focused on something like #274 on the list, it's clearly an axe to grind (some form of cognitive bias) OR else they've controlled or mitigated #1-273. It's never the latter.

A hot headed pilot is a greater risk to aviation safety than is a trained dog comfortable in its environment under direct supervision and control of it's owner with a history of only appropriate behavior.

.....I couldn?t agree more! Good post. Thanks, Allan...:D
 
gee's, when i go to the airport it is at least as good as going to the bar and shooting the breeze, telling lies to each other etc. i think i would think twice about calling one of the ''old timers'' on something and giving an ultimatum. you may find you really have your space to yourself. it's supposed to be much more fun than that.
i have made a lot of buddies at the airport.
 
Coming at this from the other angle....

I could not imagine the trauma of losing a dog due to my own negligence in not keeping him leashed in an active airport environment. The world is risky enough. The risk of real human injury on top of that makes me ask why?
 
Statistical probability is entertaining to post, but it's amazing how fast #274 changes to #1 when it's in your face. I know plenty of "airport dogs" that have missing limbs, permanent deformities or significant psychological trauma as a result of a close brush with a propeller. As a long time dog lover and owner, I'll say if a prop is turning, the pooch needs to be secured.
period. Dot.

Airports are for airplanes, not fetch.
 
I chuckled reading all this angst about dogs. Heck, my airport has coyotes, a skunk, deer and foxes. As of yesterday, we had an animal trapper out to get the skunk. I hope he got it because I almost got sprayed by it a few weeks ago. We also had an airport cat, who worked hard keeping the mice under control. Nobody complained and everyone seemed to accept that animal presence at a country airport is just something you gotta look out for. We did have an airport dog, but the manager found a home for it. The dog gets all the bad press because it's ownership is directly connected to a known person, therefore that person must be bad. I think if you're going to be fair about it, you should hire someone to come out and shoot every non-human he can find, including the birds. They're a danger as well you know. A permanent position, Airport Hunter. By God, we'll keep this place sanitized. All of the foregoing in humor...:D

I think I would have just introduced myself to him, petted his dog, maybe throw the stick for him and then say "I'm about to fire up in a few minutes, might want to keep the dog leashed until I'm gone".
 
I dont see "angst" in this thread, nor do I see dog owners as being "bad". What I do see is an opportunity for pilots to do what we are trained to do - and that's "manage risk". We can't do much about deer or hawks, but we can sure as heck control pets 100%. Just because a coyote is running free does not release the owner of a cherished Golden Retriever from responsibility.

Lets keep in mind that a propstrike with an errant coyote is significantly different than a propstrike with Fido chasing said coyote from a legal standpoint. One is an "accident" the other is "negligence".

Pets are an important part of our lives and I can tell you my last dogs (a 213 pound Mastiff and a 180 pound Great Dane) were part of my family, but I tried to never impose that level of familiarity/endearment on others. Pets are defined as "property" in this state, and my rights of enjoyment of my property end where I make someone else uncomfortable. An unleashed dog on an airport ramp is an "uncomfortable" situation for any reasonable pilot, so the only action is to ensure that the animal is 100% secured if aircraft ops are involved.

You may have the smartest dog on the planet - one who knows and can can comprehend the consequenses of a turning propeller, but No pet owner has a right to expect the same level of understanding of a pilot trying to navigate this powerful meat grinder in a confined area. Its a "do unto others..." situation. We have always owned huge beed dogs, and despite their sweet temperment, I was always cognizant of the fear some people would realize upon being near a "bear sized" animal. Responsible owners simply need to do the right thing and accomodate the comfort level of a reasonable society.
 
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I chuckled reading all this angst about dogs. Heck, my airport has coyotes, a skunk, deer and foxes. As of yesterday, we had an animal trapper out to get the skunk. I hope he got it because I almost got sprayed by it a few weeks ago. We also had an airport cat, who worked hard keeping the mice under control. Nobody complained and everyone seemed to accept that animal presence at a country airport is just something you gotta look out for. We did have an airport dog, but the manager found a home for it. The dog gets all the bad press because it's ownership is directly connected to a known person, therefore that person must be bad. I think if you're going to be fair about it, you should hire someone to come out and shoot every non-human he can find, including the birds. They're a danger as well you know. A permanent position, Airport Hunter. By God, we'll keep this place sanitized. All of the foregoing in humor...:D

I think I would have just introduced myself to him, petted his dog, maybe throw the stick for him and then say "I'm about to fire up in a few minutes, might want to keep the dog leashed until I'm gone".
To be fair, wild animals usually avoid humans, or at least ignore them. Domesticated animals often look at humans and see FRIEND! (or at least "staff," in the case of cats), and move toward them.
 
To be fair, wild animals usually avoid humans, or at least ignore them. Domesticated animals often look at humans and see FRIEND! (or at least "staff," in the case of cats), and move toward them.

Dave,
Since you?re an attorney give some free legal advice. What are the legal ramifications if an unleashed dog causes damage or personal injury at a public airport. Is there personal liability involved?
 
Yes

Yes, let?s litigate the **** out of everything!

I have been based at several airports, and all had dogs.

Never had a problem and everyone just got along, was respectful, and accountable...

...but hey, let?s bring the lawyers in...that?s bound to make it better...🤨
 
Never had an issue with any of the dogs at my field and they help contribute to the friendly atmosphere that I enjoy.

I get that they could pose a perceived risk that we want to mitigate. But that risk could be mitigated by politely making sure the dog is secure before starting up. No need to demand constant leashes, or say there is no place for dogs at an airport. There is no place for dogs running around unsupervised, but that doesn’t seem to be the case here.

If you're remotely concerned, just ask the guy politely to hold onto his dog while you start up and taxi - heck he might even have done it without prompting if he knew you were starting up.

Getting "ticked off" because they were playing fetch while you pre-flighted sounds a bit grouchy and it seems like you were primed for a confrontation even if the dog never posed a problem. There is nothing in your post to indicate that the dog was ever not under "positive control", which does NOT mean a leash.

It's understandable to be uncomfortable around an animal you don't know yet, but how about just meeting him and his owner and finding the best way to coexist in peace? Or if you don't like dogs, just tell him that too and they will probably steer clear.

Chris
 
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Yes, let?s litigate the **** out of everything!

I have been based at several airports, and all had dogs.

Never had a problem and everyone just got along, was respectful, and accountable...

...but hey, let?s bring the lawyers in...that?s bound to make it better...🤨

That?s the problem. A careless owner allows a dog loose at an airport that causes damage or injury and the lawyers will become involved!

Most of us love dogs. Having lost two dogs myself (not at an airport) by my own inattention I am more than a little sensitive as to how quickly a dog can do the unexpected. As I said in an earlier post, most accidents don?t just happen they?re usually the result of a series of bad choices. Why setup a situation that can quickly get out of control.

If an owner elects to bring their dog to the airport then just keep it secured so that other people will remain secure.
 
Dave,
Since you’re an attorney give some free legal advice. What are the legal ramifications if an unleashed dog causes damage or personal injury at a public airport. Is there personal liability involved?
I've never had occasion to look it up for dogs specifically, but I was asked a similar question about an auto accident involving a cow, and the answer is "it depends," both upon the state and the animal. Some states are "free range" states, in which case there's generally no liability to the owner--it's up to others to keep the animal out, rather than the owner to keep it in. Other states place the burden on the owner.

In addition, it depends upon the animal: if it's the critter's first trip past the wire, there's frequently little to no liability to the owners (similar to the "one free bite" rule), but if it's known to be Houdini on hooves, well, then the owner is on notice and frequently responsible for the damages it causes.

There is also the question of whether there was a leash law in place (not a sure thing, especially since some airports are outside city limits, and such things are generally city-level ordinances). A leash law, and violation thereof, would tend to create liability because the leash law would be designed to prevent the sort of harm incurred (violation of a law doesn't always create liability; if the law is unrelated to the harm, it's not relevant. Consider a law concerning the use of pesticides in a restaurant; violating that law would have no bearing on liability if the ceiling collapses due to a leak in the roof).
Yes, let’s litigate the **** out of everything!

I have been based at several airports, and all had dogs.

Never had a problem and everyone just got along, was respectful, and accountable...

...but hey, let’s bring the lawyers in...that’s bound to make it better...��

Rocketman, I hope the nature of my reply reassures you that it's not as simple as just suing everybody in sight. It's always more nuanced than that.

...and I say that with my beloved labramutt laying here at my feet.

Indy-Fonzie-1024x749.jpg

("I'm Indy, and I approve this message.")
 
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Dogs and Props

I love dogs. And, I would never leave it off leash at an airport. Too dangerous! If the guy loves his dog he will recognize the potential danger and use a leash.

I was at airport a few years ago and one of our local pilots had his so called airplane-dog with him. Another guy started his engine and the dog decided to bark at the prop and ran right up to it. I was watching. I couldn't believe it. Fortunately the dog felt the rush of the blade just micro inches from getting whacked and backed up. It looked like the prop hit the hair on his lips. I thought for sure I was about to see a prop strike. So glad I didn't. But that was just a lucky moment. Do dog owners really want to take that chance?
 
Even smart dogs are pretty stupid by human standards. I'd never allow mine to run loose at an airport, and mine's pretty smart -- for a dog. That means about like a highly mobile but slightly "challenged" toddler.
 
Well Tony, Did you get the answer(s) you expected?
Hope you didn?t expect the gang would make it easy <grin>
Full Disclosure: I take our dog to our airport too. We take him for walks on a leash and keep him on a line at the hangar. Our Moontown gang seems to enjoy him visiting as far as I know, and I?m confident that anyone out there will speak up promptly if that changes.
 
Yes, I guess I knew there would be two sides to the question but I didn't anticipate the level of response I got. I value all of these comments.

I enjoy dogs and don't ever want to see one hurt. And I enjoy my airport pals, with or without dogs. I do still feel that animals can be unpredictable around sudden noises and activity no matter how well they may be trained, should not be free to run on active airplane taxiways. I might feel less strongly if it were a bucolic little grass strip somewhere but this is a Class D airport with lots of airplanes coming and going.

Regarding my encounter in the original post, I haven't had a chance to talk again with the fellow with the dog, but I will be at the airport today and plan to introduce myself and take it from there. I'm sure he and I, and the dog, will be friends and can come to a mutual understanding.
 
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In the initial post, I didn't see anything wrong with playing fetch if no planes were active and if it was between hangars or something. I would add (should have stated in my previous post) that if an aircraft is powered up anywhere in the vicinity (e.g. maybe less than 1000') then I do think a dog should be tied/held until the traffic passes unless the pilot turned up knows the dog and the dog's owner (no different than pulling in next to your neighbor's driveway).

Notice how no one complained about lawyers being turned loose around turning props? :eek:
 
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