What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Vertical induction vs. horizontal induction

LettersFromFlyoverCountry

Well Known Member
The FF forward instructions arrived from Van's today and I note the advisory that they pertain to horizontal induction engine since Van's doesn't sell vertical induction engines. Mine is an IO-360 from Mattituck. Vertical induction.

For purposes of the instructions, they say, A vertical induction IO360 is essentially the same as a carbureted engine. It also notes that the firewall penetration points ofr IO engines on RV 7/19 refer only to horizontal induction engines.

Can any of you with a similar setup tell me what you've done for a throttle location (F on the plans) for an IO with vertical induction? What did you use for a hole location?
 
This will give you an idea of how I did my AFP induction on a -6A. The -A model complicated things due to the structure for the nose gear on the mount. I discuss the mixture cable routing in the link; the throttle cable routes pretty easily. You can see where I marked the penetration in the fourth picture; it's a black vertical line on the firewall and the lower tick mark is the throttle penetration.

I used eyeballs for the cables, so the firewall penetrations were done with the engine in place. Once the pilot holes were drilled, a punch die did the rest. Van sent me only the prop cable and I used it to measure the lengths for the throttle and mixture cable runs. I just made sure there was no binding in the cable (i.e. gentle curves in the run; not a taut, straight-line from control lever to control knob) and that the routing did not interfere with other stuff that could not be moved: engine mount, exhaust, rudder pedals and brake lines, etc.
 
The FF forward instructions arrived from Van's today and I note the advisory that they pertain to horizontal induction engine since Van's doesn't sell vertical induction engines.

If I can just jump in here amidst all of these replies (yes, that is sarcasm!), I note today that the majority of engines on Van's order forms ARE vertical induction. So I don't really understand their comments.

But apparently I'm one of the few with a vertical induction engine.

Anyway, if there's anybody else on VAF who has installed a vertical induction Mattituck engine IO-360 in an RV-7, what did you use for locations for the cable passthroughs?
 
fwf for vert...

I have a t-dragger and constant speed prop, vert-io-360.

The eyeballs are awesome.

Prop and Throttle location work as documented in the fwf plan.
Mixture is different. It needs to be near the throttle. Location is not really about precision of millimeters or anything like that. I think the best spot would be about an inch or two over from the throttle hole, but if you have a nose wheel, then you'd want to check with others about that. Inside the cabin, the cable has to be routed through that cover plate, so keeping it near the throttle cable is simpler. You will definitely need to order the longer mixture cable from Van's.

The next challenge for vertical induction folks is dealing the bracket for mixture. Depending on model of injection servo and the orientation of the mixture arm you may have to make a mod there too. Got pics of that when the time comes.

Here's a pic showing my throttle/prop eyeballs. Poke around the full gallery and you'll see other pics that might be useful.

http://donka.net/gallery/view_photo.php?set_albumName=rv7_engine&id=DSCN0172
 
Bob, I can't tell you exactly where the firewall penetrations would be but I can tell you your engine is the same as an IO-360-B1B from Lycoming as far as servo position and setup. So if Vans has information about the penetrations for that model, you could use those points for you engine. The throttle location would be about the same as for an O-360-A1A but the mixture arm is located a couple of inches further forward and maybe 2-3 inches more to the left as compared to where it is on an O-360-A1A. Not sure if that arm location would make any difference with the firewall penetrations but I don't think it would. You might need a couple of inch longer mixture control to make up the difference in location of the arm though. You will need a P/N VA-182-PC bracket for the fuel injected engine to hold the controls, on the engine end, and not the VA-149 that is used for the carbureted engine.
Good Luck,
Mahlon
?The opinions and information provided in this and all of my posts are hopefully helpful to you. Please use the information provided responsibly and at your own risk."
 
I dont believe Vans has specific info for the IO-360B1B - thats not an engine they sell. Dont mean to be sarcastic here Bob, but you just need to put the holes in the firewall where they best line up for the fuel injection system. If you are getting the AFP system, it comes with its own bracket, so delete the VA-182 part from Vans. You will probably still have to hack away/modify the AFP bracket to make it work - requires some trial and error and a bit of patience, but not really hard. Go gettum.

erich
 
Dont mean to be sarcastic here Bob, but you just need to put the holes in the firewall where they best line up for the fuel injection system.

Well, yeah, except that in order to know where that is, you have to mount the engine. But I would rather not mount the engine until I can get as much firewall work done as possible. So it's a bit of a Catch 22 situation in that regard.

My hope was that of the gazillion members of VAF, someone has installed this engine on a 7A before and had already reconciled the plans.

Guess not. And still am totally confused by Van's assertion it doesn't sell a vertical induction 320 or 360.
 
...

And still am totally confused by Van's assertion it doesn't sell a vertical induction 320 or 360.

I've seen the statement that they didn't sell a *fuel-injected* vertical induction engine That is Vans excuse for not having specific firewall-forward instructions for vertical induction. It's confusing since they have been selling a IO-320 (vert. ind.) for several years.

I also am surprised at how difficult it has been to find specific info on vert. ind. fuel-injected installations on the internet. It was something I was hoping to nail down and completely understand before buying an engine. I have read that you can call Van's and get the lowdown on the differences.
 
Just so everyone understands, an IO-360-B1B is really an O-360-A1A with fuel injection. They are both vertical induction/sump engines and actually use the same sump. The rest of the engine is essentially the same, as well. The O-360-A1A has a low pressure fuel pump while the IO-360 has a high pressure one, but the ports are in exactly the same position. The mags are in the same place, the governor is in the same place and plumbed the same way. The starter and alternator are in the same place. The footprint of either engine is the same except for the differences in the geometry of the fuel servo and the carburetor. The fuel servo is about 5/8" shorter then the carb and the mixture location is different, as described earlier but they are mounted in exactly the same place on the engine. Other the that and the addition of the fuel nozzles, flow divider and supply lines on top of the engine, the two engines are the same.
Hope this helps.
Good Luck,
Mahlon
?The opinions and information provided in this and all of my posts are hopefully helpful to you. Please use the information provided responsibly and at your own risk."
 
Thanks Mahlon

Don't know if the helps Bob, but it just helped me a ton. That's the most clear explanation I've seen and it clarified a bunch of things for me.

Thanks again.

RS
 
Cut to fit

Bob, it's definitely a Catch-22 but you can approach it easily enough. I'm sure I was not the first AFP on an A model but I couldn't get any good info and ended up doing some on-the-fly engineering. Among the issues I had was how to install the electric pump, removing the battery box aft of the firewall, routing the firewall penetrations for fuel as well as controls, locating the fuel flow sender, and routing the fuel purge line. Yet my engine installation only took a few months this summer.

The biggest help I found was the Bingelis books Firewall Forward and On Engines. The basic approach was to mount the engine and plan the biggest, most difficult to move items first: exhaust, baffles, oil cooler, batteries, cabin heat. Next came the fluid and cable locations, and finally the wires (I ended up with six electrical penetrations to keep sensor wires separate from power wires and to keep the runs short). I removed the engine, mount and all, to install the batteries, fluid penetrations, and eyeballs for the control cables. The battery boxes also determined the location of the solenoids and I ended up putting the BMA Engine Pod near the top of the firewall. Then I reinstalled the engine and mount. Afterward, I still ended up making penetrations for the ignition wires, manifold pressure line, and a sensor wire penetration for the Engine Pod; these were easily done with a 90-degree drill attachment.

It's not that difficult and, if you tackle it one system at a time, it goes pretty quickly and easily. For me, it was a lot of fun, too, as I was able to connect up each system and, in many cases, then test it for the first time. It was pretty amazing pressurizing the fuel system the first time or seeing actual readouts for the sensors on the EFIS. Even if you intended to follow someone else's installation, you'd still probably change things so don't sweat it and go ahead and roll your own.
 
Vertical vs Horizontal

Mahlon's post explained some of the nuances of the Vertical v/s Horizontal quite well. For folks who are not familiar with the terms, it simply implies how the intake air flow and fuel metering devices are oriented relative to the engine.

One way to tell (on a completed RV) is if it has a bottom cowl scoop, it almost always has 'Vertical Induction'. RV's with the smooth bottom cowl almost always have 'Horizontal Induction'. OK, lets peel the cowl away and see how this works...

'Vertical Induction' engine air flows in through the cowl scoop and into the Filtered Airbox (bedpan shaped device). At that point, it flows through a K&N airfilter, and then changes direction 90* going up (vertically) through either a carburator or a fuel injection servo, which is bolted to the BOTTOM of the engine sump. (So here is where a 'Vertical Induction' engine can be either carb'd or injected). From there, it's essentially the same system except that on an injected engine the fuel is getting squirted in later at the intake valve port. A carb'd system atomized the fuel as it passes through the carburator. Engines used on RV's that use this system might be: O-320-D1A, IO-320-D1A, O-360-A1A, IO-360-B1B, IO-540-A4B5, etc.

'Horizontal Induction' engine air flows in through the left engine inlet and enters a rectangular K&N airfilter as it flows across the baffling inlet ramp. From there, is is ducted down through a 'snorkle' assembly and directed into the front end of a fuel injection servo that is bolted to the FORWARD face of the sump. The air is now flowing 'horizontally' at this point. After passing through the servo, the air turns 90* now going up into the intake risers and on to the cylinders. From there on, it's all the same process. Generally all engines (used on RV's) that use 'Horizontal Induction' are fuel injected. (Not counting those with pressure carb's, Ellison throttle bodies, etc). Engines used on RV's that use this system might be: IO-360-M1B, IO-360-A1B6

Induction type/orientation has significant effects on subsystems such as exhaust routing, fuel pumps, cabin heat routing, fuel line length, etc. so plan your system carefully and know exactly what you want before ordering an engine or Firewall Forward Kit.
Hope this helps!;)
 
The more I read this thread, the more I wish Tony Bingelis were still alive.

It's also becoming more clear why there are so many homebuilt accidents due to engine failure.
 
I'm following this thread with great interest, since my discussions with Liz James (of Sam James fame), Sue at Aerosport Power and Bruce at Vans led me to the "clear" (well, it seemed clear then) choice of vertical induction for my IO-320. All of them stated or implied it would a more difficult install with more custom-made "stuff" if I went with front-facing induction. Bruce also said most IO-320's are sold with vertical injection. (Aside:Both Liz and Bruce said to make sure I order a cowl for a 360, as that will have sufficient room on the bottom for the vertical induction.)
Now after reading the info above, and maybe a little like Bob, I'm as confused as before.:confused:
 
There's certainly a market out there for a Web site or plans on a vertical induction install on an RV aircraft. In a way, it's frightening how in order to install an engine properly, it requires a generous amount of **** luck that you find out all the things that need to be done in an environment where not many people want or can tell you. You can pick up -- as I have on this thread -- a few factoids here or there. But I have no idea the extent of what I don't know and that's a very dangerous situation, I should think. I mean, if I ask a question, I can usually get an answer, but I don't know what questions need to be asked.

It's a very enlightening point in the build. It makes me appreciate the builders who've gone before (especially before kits) even more. But it also reminds me what a crock the homebuilt industry marketing is.

Very troubling and scary.
 
There's certainly a market out there for a Web site or plans on a vertical induction install on an RV aircraft. In a way, it's frightening how in order to install an engine properly, it requires a generous amount of **** luck that you find out all the things that need to be done in an environment where not many people want or can tell you. You can pick up -- as I have on this thread -- a few factoids here or there. But I have no idea the extent of what I don't know and that's a very dangerous situation, I should think. I mean, if I ask a question, I can usually get an answer, but I don't know what questions need to be asked.

It's a very enlightening point in the build. It makes me appreciate the builders who've gone before (especially before kits) even more. But it also reminds me what a crock the homebuilt industry marketing is.

Very troubling and scary.

It's not supposed to be easy -- after all, you're building an airplane! And you're supposedly building it for your own education and enjoyment (because you have to sign a document to that effect at the end). This isn't just some snap together thing where all the pieces fall into place perfectly every time. Yes, sometimes it's frustrating. Yes, sometimes you order the wrong stuff and have to send it all back and start over or make due with what you got. Keep going, though, because it's definitely worth it in the end.

The FWF was the most intimidating part of the project for me because I knew almost nothing about it, and I experienced all of the emotions that you are now. In 20 years of flying, to me the engine was always that "thing under the hood that the mechanics worked on". Sure, I'd done oil changes and other things like that, but my research for the RV taught me that I was even doing that incorrectly (Gosh, you mean there's an oil suction screen that I should check? DC-4 on the filter gasket? Hmm. Never heard of those before.). I documented the fuel-injected vertical induction install on my website because I couldn't find many other electronic resources at the time. Since then several other people have documented theirs online, and they've done a more thorough job of documentation than I did.

Remember, Vans got into the FWF kit business after the fact, and they did so reluctantly because there are so many possible variations and combinations with the FWF installation. Things are a lot simpler and more standardized with the airframe. The metalwork is pretty straightforward (I built a tail kit, so I can build an airplane!), but electrical and plumbing systems require considerably more research and knowledge. Looking at other people's airplanes (both RVs and non-RVs) helped me a lot with the visualization.

This comment isn't directed at you, but I've definitely noticed a trend over the last several years where people are jumping into these projects without doing the appropriate research or even owning the appropriate reference materials. There are a lot of people here who don't even own a copy of AC43-13, the Lycoming overhaul manual, the AeroElectric Connection, the Sky Ranch Engineering Manual, the Bingelis books, or any number of other invaluable resources that are absolutely necessary to complete a project of this magnitude. I understand that it's often easier to just ask a new question on the forum -- after all, that's the whole point of a forum -- but 99% of the time the answer is already there (complete with pictures) if you bother to do the research.

FWIW, I agree with you about the marketing in the homebuilder industry. The EAA is partly responsible for it as well because they want to expand their member base. Their marketing materials make all of this seem super easy, and a lot of it is just plain hard. A lot of people have figured out how to make money by selling extras or add-ons that you "absolutely need" in order to complete your project. It's easy to get mesmerized by those things while you're dreaming about your perfect RV, but if you get too caught up in them you'll never finish! My advice would be to stick to the plans as much as possible and get the airplane flying. You can always add/change/delete things later. After all, you're going to need an excuse to use some of those expensive tools that have been collecting dust ever since the first flight.
 
Last edited:
It's not supposed to be easy -- after all, you're building an airplane! And you're supposedly building it for your own education and enjoyment (because you have to sign a document to that effect at the end). This isn't just some snap together thing where all the pieces fall into place perfectly every time. Yes, sometimes it's frustrating. Yes, sometimes you order the wrong stuff and have to send it all back and start over or make due with what you got. Keep going, though, because it's definitely worth it in the end.

Well, I know all of that, having been building and enjoying the project for 8 years. But I think one of the things that a builder needs to learn is the limits of his or her abilities and capabilities, and be honest and respectful of those limits rather than so ashamed of them as to ignore them and assume the risk of doing so.

I'm not a gearhead and engines don't come easily to me. So if Van's isn't prepared to offer any guidance of vertical induction engines, and the only efficient way of getting information is asking questions, which requires one to know what questions to ask, isn't it prudent for a builder to consider going with an engine configuration for which Van's IS willing to offer assistance?

This isn't the part of the airplane, I would suggest, where one guesses. If you don't get this part right, it's probably going to kill you quicker than if you stink at countersinking. :D

So, like I said, I think part of the process of education is knowing when to take a different route because the path is too dangerous. For me, I'm thinking that maybe a Van's stock engine is the way to go. For others, perhaps not so much.

By the way, the original post I made on this asked for very specific information and so far only one person -- Mahlon -- has provided a piece of it.

So if there are Web sites out there that document the vertical induction installation than Van's is unwilling to support, by all means let's get those links posted so this doesn't become just another philos0phical thread on homebuilding.

As far as research goes, I think one of the problems is that Van's requires you to make a decision on your engine VERY early in the process -- when ordering the finishing kit. It does so without guidance and, again, many builders don't KNOW what questions to ask in deciding on an engine. So it's very much a Catch-22 situation. The builder, quite often, doesn't know what he's supposed to know.

In the past, I tried to create a typical timeline in the building process when things should occur, so that a builder who's a quarter-way through the fuselage should now that he now should be considering engines and he should be considering a,b,c &d in that process. I think such a document would be not only helpful, but vital.
 
There's certainly a market out there for a Web site or plans on a vertical induction install on an RV aircraft. In a way, it's frightening how in order to install an engine properly, it requires a generous amount of **** luck that you find out all the things that need to be done in an environment where not many people want or can tell you. You can pick up -- as I have on this thread -- a few factoids here or there. But I have no idea the extent of what I don't know and that's a very dangerous situation, I should think. I mean, if I ask a question, I can usually get an answer, but I don't know what questions need to be asked.

It's a very enlightening point in the build. It makes me appreciate the builders who've gone before (especially before kits) even more. But it also reminds me what a crock the homebuilt industry marketing is.

Very troubling and scary.

Bob,

The certification bases of what we do is supposed to be a learning experience, its the only way to approach the subject. That's why it is called "experimental homebuilt". The FAA is taking a serious look at all that is going on and they don't like what they see - marketing an airplane assembled or made so easy, it is no longer within the original intent of the privilege. There has to be some builder input to the process beyond simply following instructions or the whole process will go down the drain. That's why there are vague areas in the plan. I am amazed the FAA has rubber stamped the matched drilled, quick build RV's as home built. With the first airplane I built, the LEZ, I built jigs for a whole year before beginning the process. The original RV was just as labor intensive.

Now with regard to installing an engine and making it run safe - it is not rocket science - and unless the builder does dumb things like run solid lines to the engine from the firewall - it is safe. I believe your original question had to do with where the firewall penetration points are suppose to be for the mixture and throttle cables with a vertical induction system. Truth is, it does not matter. They can be anywhere as long as the cables are reasonably straight, clear the top of rudder bar, and not on top of an exhaust pipe as they make there way to the FI servo or carb. Mine are not anywhere near what the Vans plan says. I just had 2 guys look at the install and they could find nothing wrong with it. It does not have to be just exactly like Vans or anyone else did it. Air Flow Performance does not make a bracket for throttle and mixture cables with the horizontal induction system, they expect the builder to use his head and figure it out. Same with the intake arrangement - this is an experimental effort and as such just about every induction system is a little different.

The engine does not care how the cables get to it, where the air is coming from, just as long as it works. The first EZ's had a round filter jury rigger to the fire wall, held in place with an aluminum plate and springs and hose connected to the carb. There was not an outside air inlet and it worked just fine. The RV FI system would work with air sucked out of the lower part of the engine compartment, maybe not as efficiently as ram air, but it would work and might even facilitate cylinder cooling by creating a lower pressure in that area. That's where by pass air to the system usually comes from.

Anyway, I wish guys like you could move on and get your airplanes flying, they are so much fun to fly. They don't have to be perfect and if you let EAA flight and tech advisers look at the project, it will be OK. The first flight safety record of such projects is very safe.
 
I was about to reply very much along the lines of Geoff. If you think that the FWF choices are confusing, you haven't scratched the surface yet. Aside from vertical vs. horizontal induction, vertical comes in flavors, too. I remember when people were modifying the engine mounts for the -H2AD (vertical at the rear of the sump). Then there's ignition choice, FI or not, inverted oil, remote cooler, not to even mention alternative engines.

But that's not helpful and I, too, understand Bob's (and others') concerns. Heck, I just fired off a question to Airflow Performance yesterday about something I'm not even sure is an issue; so I'm still learning with a flying RV. So instead of being defensive of the sport, let me make a suggestion. If you haven't already done so, get some eyes on your project. Not just the part you are working on, but also what you are planning. Not just a TC but anyone you can corner: other builders, A&Ps, anyone who can give you advice.

If you're building at home, find some way to contact local fliers. I was loosely involved with my local EAA chapter but, after I moved the project to the hangar, I suddenly discovered a network of owners, builders, mechanics, etc., that had always been there. Turns out that many of them flew for weekend breakfasts and I was able to hitch along with them; I got my long-overdue BFR on one of those junkets, not to mention some stick time and good advice from their experiences, even with 'spam-cans'. It was an IA from a few hangars down that advised me on my engine control hookups, and he later came back and helped me adjust idle and prop. He flies a twin with IO-540s and knows how the engines operate and guided me through a few installation pitfalls. He's not the only one, either.

What I'm saying is that even if you were to have a build-by-numbers FWF (and I hope the RV-12 guys are listening) it is still a good idea to have things looked over by people with experience. I helped another builder put a Walters in his Lancair Prop-jet, twice. I have no turbine experience, but I could spot areas where cables needed support and such; most of his technical support was from the guy who imported the engine. But when I was building my project, he returned the favor and found more than a few places I could improve; even though he had no reciprocating experience. Even inexperienced eyes can catch things you miss or propose solutions you hadn't thought of. My engine started up first time (well, after I remembered to turn the fuel selector from 'off' :eek:) and the only problem was an oil line that needed to be torqued. I'm continued to get advice during the break-in and in the normal operation of my systems, and I expect I'll learn new stuff hours from now. But the aircraft is performing marvelously.

So, Bob (and others) open up your shop and get people in there. Homebuilding is a community effort; even the Wrights did not work in a vacuum. You'll get plenty of help and advice and sometimes you'll have to choose among options or make a compromise between some objectives. But you'll end up with a perfectly safe and exciting aircraft; these systems aren't that complicated or difficult. Buck up and press on.
 
I'm not a gearhead and engines don't come easily to me. So if Van's isn't prepared to offer any guidance of vertical induction engines, and the only efficient way of getting information is asking questions, which requires one to know what questions to ask, isn't it prudent for a builder to consider going with an engine configuration for which Van's IS willing to offer assistance?

I was in exactly the same boat. I was originally planning a FADEC engine. After being totally overwhelmed with a bunch of stuff I didn't know anything about, I reverted to a standard 0-360. Then I decided I really wanted injection, so that's where I ended up. The thing that would have been MOST helpful to me would have been another builder or mechanic on the field to answer questions and/or get touchy-feely with my engine. Unfortunately, I didn't have that resource.

So if there are Web sites out there that document the vertical induction installation than Van's is unwilling to support, by all means let's get those links posted so this doesn't become just another philos0phical thread on homebuilding.

You can check mine at http://rv8.gwevans.net. Click on FWF. You'll find many comments like, "Here's another place where the Vans FWF kit parts didn't work out quite right." That site will be coming down in a few weeks when I change internet providers, though.

As far as research goes, I think one of the problems is that Van's requires you to make a decision on your engine VERY early in the process -- when ordering the finishing kit. It does so without guidance and, again, many builders don't KNOW what questions to ask in deciding on an engine. So it's very much a Catch-22 situation. The builder, quite often, doesn't know what he's supposed to know.

That way they can get more money out of you on handling and restocking charges.:D I had exactly the same thoughts/problems at the same point in the process. I decided on vertical induction for two reasons (both of which were probably the wrong ones): 1. Cheaper engine, and 2. I didn't have to make that **** snorkel. Since Vans doesn't "support" a vertical induction injected installation, I knew there might be some issues. In retrospect the snorkel wouldn't have been that hard to deal with, but I still got a cheaper engine in a plane that performs perfectly well. I did have to send back some leftover FWF kit parts and order some different ones, though.

Maybe the pertinent questions to ask yourself (with regard to the finishing kit order) are these: Do you care about the bump in the bottom of the cowl, and do you care about the cost? Answer those, and you'll know how to order the finishing kit. You can figure out the rest of it later.

By the way, the original post I made on this asked for very specific information and so far only one person -- Mahlon -- has provided a piece of it.

He definitely gets my vote for the #1 resource of useful and correct information with respect to airplane engines. And if you buy your engine from him (as I did), he'll continue to answer your questions all the way through the installation and flying test phase. Heck, I've been flying for over a year and I still email him sometimes with what must seem like really stupid questions. He *always* answers them. Mattituck really supports their product. I'm sure other engine shops do too, but my experience with Mattituck and Mahlon has been absolutely stellar.
 
Last edited:
My engine started up first time (well, after I remembered to turn the fuel selector from 'off' :eek:)

Me too! And strangely enough, the last thing the bystander / fire extinguisher guy said to me as I closed the canopy was, "Don't forget to turn on the fuel selector." I guess I was just too excited!
 
By the way, the original post I made on this asked for very specific information and so far only one person -- Mahlon -- has provided a piece of it.

Don't punch the holes for the cables yet. They're very easy to do with the engine mounted (particularly if you own or buy a knockout punch). As others have said, you want the engine "hard" stuff fixed in space before you consider the routing of the "soft" stuff.

For that matter, don't make ANY holes in the firewall yet. Until you know EVERYTHING that's going to be on the firewall, you can't be 100% sure of where to put any of it. Your electrical and plumbing and engine control systems should be completely defined prior to making holes in the firewall. It's a lot easier than covering a hole after the fact.
 
Anyway, I wish guys like you could move on and get your airplanes flying, they are so much fun to fly.

Operators are standing by now to accept your credit card contribution to the effort. :rolleyes:

True enough, I do find myself thinking from time to time... I could've had this thing done right now if I hadn't had kids. I kinda hate myself, though, when I find myself doing that.

The only other "I coulda" thought I have with great regularity these days is "I coulda gone into a line of work with a nice fat union-negotiated buyout."

So I'm 0 for 2. :D
 
Operators are standing by now to accept your credit card contribution to the effort. :rolleyes:

True enough, I do find myself thinking from time to time... I could've had this thing done right now if I hadn't had kids. I kinda hate myself, though, when I find myself doing that.

The only other "I coulda" thought I have with great regularity these days is "I coulda gone into a line of work with a nice fat union-negotiated buyout."

So I'm 0 for 2. :D

If I win the $100 million powerball lottery tonight, your RV-7A financial woes are over - that's a promise. :)
 
Last edited:
Links to builder sites

The only other "I coulda" thought I have with great regularity these days is "I coulda gone into a line of work with a nice fat union-negotiated buyout."

So I'm 0 for 2. :D

The grass isn't always greener in that world. I ended up losing my pension and taking a 65% pay cut at the same time -- certainly not what I expected when I signed up.

Anyway, here are some links from my favorites folder (in no particular order). None of these feature an injected vertical induction engine, but each of them was useful to me in many ways. They all contain some really good pictures of FWF installations. When you don't have a finished airplane sitting next door to look at, these sites are the next best thing when trying to figure out what to do with plumbing/wiring/cables/baffles/etc. Take a look -- I'm sure they'll give you some good ideas.

And to the guys who made these sites (some of whom participate here) -- THANK YOU! I couldn't have finished my RV-8 without your help!

http://www.dualrudder.com/rv7/
http://www3.telus.net/aviation/flying/RV-9A/photos/Firewall_fwd/Firewall_fwd_photos.html
http://websites.expercraft.com/PHVII/
http://www.rv7-a.com/
http://www.4sierratango.com/
http://www.jeffsrv-7a.com/
http://www.rvproject.gen.nz/
http://www.rv8.ch/
http://www.lazy8.net/rv8.html
http://www.rv8a.com/
http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/index.php
http://home.comcast.net/~jwdanie/
http://www.romeolima.com/RV8/
http://www.rvproject.com/
 
same boat

Bob,
I am pretty much at exactly your stage with a 6A. (vertical induction, Superior IO-360, with Precision SilverHawk injection). Engine ready to mount, no holes drilled in firewall yet.
I similarly was surprised at Van's initial response to my query about what changes were required (to their firewall forward kit to support a vertical induction IO-360. They said they had never done a vertical induction injected install and didn't know. They did suggest ordering the 0-360 firewall forward kit as a start, but otherwise (cable lengths, etc.), I was on my own.
I subsequently corresponded with Joe Blank, who helpfully offered the following:

"What you will need from Vans is the 7/7A FI Pump Kit, and for the Firewall Forward kit, the FF-7A O-360. Not sure if you are fixed pitch or C/S as that will play into the FWF kit also. Most of that kit should work fine. If you are using Airflow Performance, order the VA-130-CAP AIRFLOW PERF FM-100 top plate for the filter airbox. Also eliminate the gascolator as they are not used on the F/I systems. Hope this helps..."

I am using a Precision Silverhawk fuel injection system and contacted them for any advice that they might provide. They provided what help they could re. servo linkage options (straight, jogged, different lengths,) and kindly offered to swap what I had for what I might need for no charge if I found that necessary). They have a few photos on their site of an RV install, but had no kit or instructions to offer.
You asked about firewall hole locations, I think given the variables that the best advice is to wait and see, but I offer the following from what I have found to date about a vertical install:
It matters whether you have AirFlow Performance or Precision SilverHawk injection. With Precision, one can choose a standard or "reverse" mixture arm on the servo, and also different styles/length of mixture arm. Some people use (with the standard mixture arm) a 1" spacer between the servo and the engine. Mahlon recommends this in a post to this site. Aerosport Power supplied me with a Precision servo with the reversed arm, and says no spacer is necessary. These choices will affect the mixture bracket required, and I would think also the firewall hole location, cable length and which side of the servo the fuel line enters.
If you search vertical induction & fuel injection on this site, you will find lengthy threads on the subject, and many proposed solutions/options. See particularly "XP-IO-360 vertical draft install references".
I wondered when reading these threads how I could have had no idea of these install issues when choosing my engine/cowl/induction, but take some comfort from the fact that that seem to be lots and lots of vertical induction fuel injection installs being (successfully, one hopes) done.
Bill Brooks
Ottawa, ON
Canada
RV-6A
 
it ain't that bad.

Bob,

I just went through this. I have a vertical IO, constant speed prop, and precision fi. I began fwf work with very little knowledge. I'm still no expert, but when you get into the work, there's only so much that will ultimately make you nervous.

The O-360 kit is close to the mark for what we need. It might be silly that Van's hasn't tweaked the BOM for this and created the IO-360-vert kit, but the differences really are few, and most everything on the fwf drawings is still very helpful and relevant. The instruction manual outlines a good flow for doing fwf work. I followed that very closely and it went well.

Here's my quick summary.
0 - Install your battery and contactors as per plans.
1 - Throttle and Prop locations are good. Go ahead and drill 'em as per fwf kit.
2 - Mixture goes near throttle, not near prop as on the plan. You can easily create this hole after the engine is hung. Just save till later. Working around the engine is not that bad.
3 - Before hanging the engine, install the prop governor and bracket, test fit connecting the oil lines on the engine, make sure the oil restrictor fitting is installed. (Aerosport installed mine.) I had to modify the prop governor bracket a little to resolve interference with the oil line, but it's possible to do this after the engine is hung.
4 - You need the longest mixture control that Van's sells for the -7. Period.
5 - With precision fi, you don't need any spacers.
6 - With reverse arm on mixture (points up), you need to make a simple bend in the V182 bracket. This can be done easily when you're running the engine controls. I have a pic of that if you want it. Also with the reverse arm, people note that the arm comes close to the cowl. Precision can give an alternate mixture arm that should improve clearance. But you can ignore this till you have the cowl and fab already fitted.
7 - With non-reverse mixture arm(points down), you have to modify the FAB for clearance. The fwf kit comes with stuff to make this easy.
8 - The Baffling kit is vastly improved and the drawings/plans are very good. It's work, but no real mysteries to solve. Also, the oil cooler support is improved.
9 - I didn't have any hoses fabricated, and I was able to make use of all the hoses in the kit (and in my case, a few supplied by Aerosport). Aerosport did supply one hose too short for the servo->pump run, but they sent me a longer one.
 
Last edited:
I wondered when reading these threads how I could have had no idea of these install issues when choosing my engine/cowl/induction, but take some comfort from the fact that that seem to be lots and lots of vertical induction fuel injection installs being (successfully, one hopes) done.

That's why I keep coming back to the long-time idea I've had of putting together an "RV builders construction" timeline. The reason you didn't have any idea of these install issues when choosing your engine is because you were probably in the early stages of the fuselage kit and you were working on a whole bunch of other issues. As I indicated earlier, you have to actually make your engine choice when you submit your order for the finishing kit.

Oh heck, now that I think about it, you actually have to make your engine choice on the first day you work on your firewall, when it has you installing a doubler plate for a gascolator, which you don't need if you're installing a fuel injection system. Of course, you don't know that because nobody tells you that unless you happen to stumble upon a thread -- and read it -- while you're looking for help on stemming bleeding from stainless steel burrs.

In my case, I had a general idea of what kind of engine I was going to install -- I knew it would be from Mattituck and I knew it would be a 180 hp -- so a quick note to Mahlon provided me with the fact it's a vertical induction engine so I checked that off on the finishing kit order and sent it along. Since I wasn't actually ordering the engine at that point, there wasn't much of an issue that I knew about either.

Under my idea, there'd be a document that would have a construction timeline and somewhere around "deburr wing ribs" it would say "start considering engine choices and these are the things you need to consider..." and have a bulletpoints with links to, say, threads like this.

It's true, these threads do provide tremendous amounts of information, but in the big scheme of things, it's an inefficient and illogical process to have to stumble upon them when you're not aware of an issue. Just look at the number of threads posted here just today. No mortal can be expected to read them all so important stuff can skip past the average builder.

I recognize, of course, that the majority of people on VAF are not average builders.;)
 
I'm mid-way thru my IO-360 vertical with AFP install. I decided I didn't like Van's throttle and mixture locations (fixed prop for now) so I routed them through the bottom of the firewall recess. The cables pass right under the rudder pedal bars, keeping them up out of sight, but a fairly straight shot forward from the panel.

I was able to use Van's stock throttle and mixture cables, although can't remember the lengths off the top of my head. I don't believe they were the lengths in the normal FFwd kit.

Pictures of how I connected them to the FI are here:

http://mikesrv9a.com/pictures/firewall%20forward/100_3990.jpg

http://mikesrv9a.com/pictures/firewall%20forward/100_3993.jpg

Install seems to work fine and no interference problems with the FAB. I believe I can still add a prop governor later without needing to move the firewall penetration points.
 
Just a note ECI claims a 5% HP gain with a horizontal cold air induction,thats 9 HP on 180 HP engine.
 
Claims vs data

I wonder if ECI has data to back that up. When I was making my decision, many very reputable engine builders told me that the dyno results don't show there is any real benefit to the horizontal and the cost/benefit is minimal. Who to believe? I don't know. Just pick one. They don't do controlled studies on this stuff so you can make about any claim you want it appears.
 
I wonder if ECI has data to back that up. When I was making my decision, many very reputable engine builders told me that the dyno results don't show there is any real benefit to the horizontal and the cost/benefit is minimal. Who to believe? I don't know. Just pick one. They don't do controlled studies on this stuff so you can make about any claim you want it appears.
I believe that Mahlon at Mattituck has data to back up that claim. I think the difference is in the smooth transition into the 4 inlet pipes with the horizontal sump. With the vertical sump the incoming air hits a flat plate and then splits 4 ways. For me the horizontal sump is far better (and the Superior version was probably the best ...)
Pete
 
We do see 6-7 Hp increase in power with the horizontal sump we use vs. the vertical sumps. That sump coupled with 9:1 pistons normally produces corrected HP of 191-193 and 186-188 without the higher compression pistons. A regular vertical sump 360 normally makes 178-180 hp in our cell. We see no real performance differences between any of the vertical sumps. ECI, Lycoming or Superior all produce essentially the same amount of power in our test cell regardless of whose vertical sump we use. When I did the tests, I used the same engine, just changed sumps, and then did power pulls at the same engine temperatures on the same day. Not as valid as an engineering test cell might produce, but pretty valid results as far as I am concerned.
Good Luck,
Mahlon
?The opinions and information provided in this and all of my posts are hopefully helpful to you. Please use the information provided responsibly and at your own risk."
 
Still struggling

Funny how the same issues keep coming up. Scanning builder sites, scanning archives...and find many spent the same pile of time trying to figure this out, without concrete answers or pics. UGGGGGHH. Just want to drill the hole for mix and throttle in the right spot and get the eyeball covers set up prior to hanging engine. Precision fi on io320, and vans plans dont help a bit as I am a rebel and went io vert induction. Still looking for some clarification....

:confused:
 
it would be nice

I am just about to hang the AeroSport Superior based IO-360, with vertical sump, Precision fuel injection, reversed mixture control. RV-6A.
I know I can scratch my head and figure it all out, but like Bob and Rick, think that surely, someone, somewhere, of all of the 6000+ flown and many others not yet flown but past the engine mounting stage, have gone before with such a setup.
Anyone have a website, made note of the "x" and "y" firewall co-ordinates of cable holes, etc., what doesn't work from Van's drawings?
Might Van's feel inclined to post even a builder's "FAQ" setting out such info?
Bill Brooks
Ottawa Canada
RV-6A finishing kit
 
Ton's of info in the forums.

Do a search and you will uncover a bunch of photo's and descriptions. I posted many myself.
 
Back
Top