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GNS430W What makes them hold value???
- Thread starter vluvelin
- Start date
It's just market forces. A used 430W is the cheapest way to get com - vor/ILS - WAAS gps (TSO'd). And while the newer models have more glitz, touch screen vs knobs/buttons (personally, I prefer the latter), better color maps, etc., the truth is when it comes right down to approach capability there are no appreciable differences. As long as the market is there, prices won't drop. Unless, of course, a lower priced option comes along. Not holding my breath.
scsmith
Well Known Member
And cudos to Garmin for designing a product that fills a market niche so well that it is an enduring product. It seems like the perfect compromise of display size and capability for the panel space it uses, and the price.
How often does any electronic box of any kind hold market value and demand for something like 22 years?
How often does any electronic box of any kind hold market value and demand for something like 22 years?
Northernliving
Well Known Member
Much like Apple and iPhones, Garmin rarely discounts and they have monopolistic pricing. There are steep barriers to entry (especially on the certified side) and their gross margins of 60 points reflect that. These aren't commodities. As long as new models come out with similar or higher prices and older models still have utility w/out alternatives, the prices will remain high. Simple economics. Unlike companies like Apple, Garmin really doesn't manager their balance sheet all that well with poor inventory turns, DPO, DSO and cash conversion. You can afford to do that with high gross margins.
Jpm757
Well Known Member
It is my understanding that Garmin will not repair a non-WAAS unit, however they will be happy to do a WAAS/upgrade for somewhere between $3-4k which will give you a faster microprocessor, updated software, improved graphics and terrain database. How long will Garmin continue to support the 430/530 is anybody's guess. The new line of Garmin equipment is impressive and is an obvious replacement for their 20+ year old ancestors. If I were building a new panel, I would think twice about installing a 430/530. Once Garmin decides to stop supplying database updates, the unit will become obsolete as an IFR GPS navigator.
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Databases can also be purchased from Jepp. The real issue will be when some specialized IC ?chip? is no longer made. That what?s happening to SL30?s.
I don't think Garmin designed it. I thought it came from the Apollo / UPSat acquisition, along with the SL30/40 and others. Two revolutionary , well designed appliances for their day. Definately kudos on a wise investment in Apollo.
Larry
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Are you sure about this? I would like to swap a subscription between two units for a bit, but thought it wasn't possible. I know that I needed to provide a serial number for the subscription.
Larry
You?re thinking of the 480, the first TSO?d WAAS navigator. Garmin acquired it from Apollo/UPS. At the time Garmin was selling the non-WAAS version of the 430.
The SL30 was an Apollo/UPS design. IMHO the best nav-com ever.
You can only write a download to one data card, but that card will work in any 430. You can pull it out and move it to another box. For the GTN series Garmin linked the cards to the navigator serial numbers, so one card only works in one box.
N804RV
Well Known Member
As far as GNS 400/500 series holding their value, a ~$6k WAAS GPS/NAV/COM is an outstanding value right now. At twice the price for new GTNs, a good used GNS is a great deal.
I keep hearing that the limiting factor in Factory support may be the display/front-end for those units. But, Garmin says they're still refurbishing them. So, they must still have parts.
As far as database support, It seems to me like that would be a decision point, not a hardware availability issue. And, there's gonna be a lot of GNS/W units installed in GA aircraft for a long time, especially after the great hole in our pockets from 2020 compliance.
The only thing I worry about is those danged data cards. I keep hearing about data card failures.
I keep hearing that the limiting factor in Factory support may be the display/front-end for those units. But, Garmin says they're still refurbishing them. So, they must still have parts.
As far as database support, It seems to me like that would be a decision point, not a hardware availability issue. And, there's gonna be a lot of GNS/W units installed in GA aircraft for a long time, especially after the great hole in our pockets from 2020 compliance.
The only thing I worry about is those danged data cards. I keep hearing about data card failures.
Continuing GNS Navigator Support
This is not the case. The GNS 430(W) and 530(W) units are still fully supported in repair for worn or damaged units as well as WAAS upgrades. You can contact us directly for a repair on a unit from an experimental aircraft. A WAAS upgrade must be issued through a Garmin Dealer for regulatory purposes.
The only exception is a 28 volt only non-WAAS unit. These cannot be repaired directly. They are capable of being upgraded to WAAS however, which would include the repair if necessary. This is the only limitation we have as far as these units go.
We also do not have any plans to discontinue database support for these Navigators. We are running 20+ years strong on these particular units.
Thanks,
Justin
This is not the case. The GNS 430(W) and 530(W) units are still fully supported in repair for worn or damaged units as well as WAAS upgrades. You can contact us directly for a repair on a unit from an experimental aircraft. A WAAS upgrade must be issued through a Garmin Dealer for regulatory purposes.
The only exception is a 28 volt only non-WAAS unit. These cannot be repaired directly. They are capable of being upgraded to WAAS however, which would include the repair if necessary. This is the only limitation we have as far as these units go.
We also do not have any plans to discontinue database support for these Navigators. We are running 20+ years strong on these particular units.
Thanks,
Justin
Captain Avgas
Well Known Member
Sorry, but I beg to differ....at ~$6k a GNS 430W is a terrible deal. The unit has now been obsolete for 8 years. It’s replacement, the GTN 650 has already been superseded by the newer GTN 650 Xi. It’s only a matter of time before Garmin has difficulty procuring crucial parts for the GNS series from subcontractors who will be reluctant to continue producing very low volume components utilising antiquated technologies. Personally I would not be investing a large sum of money in an aged technology with absolutely no guarantee of hardware support into the future whatsoever.
If you shop around you can buy a new GTN 650 for ~$9k, and a second hand unit for even less.
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Flyingleap
Well Known Member
Garmin 430
Bob, I was told by a Garmin Rep at OSH there was 130K model 430/530's out there worldwide ( read, there is money in this line ). He also said it would be a long time before they ever stop supporting 430/530's. Can it happen, maybe... but they generated the 430W to continue the 430 line (big expensive upgrade).
Mine has never failed in 1500hrs and about 1500hrs before me, except for two internal batteries. Is that good service?
Bob, I was told by a Garmin Rep at OSH there was 130K model 430/530's out there worldwide ( read, there is money in this line ). He also said it would be a long time before they ever stop supporting 430/530's. Can it happen, maybe... but they generated the 430W to continue the 430 line (big expensive upgrade).
Mine has never failed in 1500hrs and about 1500hrs before me, except for two internal batteries. Is that good service?
I think I beg to differ with this
, but it depends on your particular avionics configuration. First, it's not "obsolete"...Garmin still supports it and has stated they will for a long time. Databases will be available for a loooooong time, given the installed user base. They're just not selling new ones. Yeah, I know, it's a bit of semantics, I guess, but given the sheer number of these and Garmin's continuing support, calling them "obsolete" seems too strong to me.
Second, and this is only me but others probably have the same or similar setups, if I have a nice EFIS like Dynon SkyView (which is what i have) or AFS, then the GTN series is a whole boatload of overkill. Weather? Got it on the SV. Traffic? Got it. Terrain? Got it. And the list goes on. So all I'm doing by paying for a GTN is throwing money away on duplicative features. The 430W/530W gives one the IFR navigator to drive the EFIS, making you legal for IFR flight, plus COM and NAV/ILS, at half the price of a new GTN.
GTN came out *right* when I procured my 430W, and yeah, I was bummed...at first. Then I realized that I'd been quite lucky...I got all the additional capability I needed for my SV system, but without all the expensive bells and whistles that I didn't need and my Dynon already provided.
That's a pretty lucrative market in databases. Granted, Jepp no doubt has the bulk of them (commercial operations, small airlines perhaps, a good number of GA, etc.). But if you guess at $500 per annual subscription on average (N. America, US only, Europe, whatever, all averaged together, and just a guess on my part), that $65M a year with really minimal overhead (the program to convert from ARINC record format to proprietary Garmin is already written, and unlikely to change; some customer service and account support software, but really nothing expensive).
Nice market to have...
DavePlaneGrips
Well Known Member
This is why I'm keeping my 430W. I don't need to spend another $5k for those same features my HDX will have.
Hi Justin,
I may have gone through the wrong channels last year when I sent in my 430 for repair. But I was told even experimental still had to go through a dealer. I think I had just called the normal Garmin 1-800 type of line and not the Number in your guys signature here.
So to be clear in the future, should I contact you guys first?
So, if I want to add a GPS navigator to a perfectly good,current Skyview Classic system with the Dynon Adsb in/out package, is the GNC 355 the best route? I have a 16 year old, 1200 hour SL-30 (Apollo) that works fine. The 355 will almost fit where the SL70 transponder was removed for the Dynon remote transponder. If I found a 430w, it would take more panel cutting because of the height. Any advantages either way. Seems like the $$ investment is similar and I don?t get ILS/loc with the gnc 355. Any other major differences. Data subscription cost?
Garmin will no doubt weigh in here, but....there's no such thing as an "experimental" 430. So, yeah, they all get treated the same and have to go through a dealer (which does kinda suck for things like firmware updates...I had to pay a hundred bucks a while back to my local avionics shop to do what any reasonably competent airplane builder should be able to do, but there's nothing you can do about it).
DavePlaneGrips
Well Known Member
I didn't have to go through a dealer when I sent my 430W back for work. Try contacting them through g3xpert, that's what I did.
Captain Avgas
Well Known Member
Oh really!!! Please refer us all to the official Garmin source stating that they will be supporting the hardware of the GNS 430W for ANY period into the future. I am aware that Garmin is currently supporting the device but I am not aware that they have ever committed to supporting the device into the future. I don't think they can do that.
The reality is that they will probably continue to support the hardware for as long as they can source components from their subcontractors.
For example, the screen technology on the 430 is well over 20 years old. Logic says that the manufacturer of that screen will have very little incentive to maintain an antiquated production line for that device for a current sales volume of perhaps a few hundred units a year. In the end it will not be Garmin that pulls the pin on 430W hardware support....it will be their suppliers....one by one...that's the way it goes with sold state devices. So buying a GNS 430W at the moment involves a fair bit of risk that critical parts for repairs may not be available tomorrow. At some price point that risk might be worth taking...but IMHO that price point is certainly not anywhere near $6000. But just my opinion. Incidentally, the average GNS430W is now 12 years old...that's certainly worth thinking about before you plonk down a big bag of money on one.
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Most of our RVs are 300 - 700 hours that is nothing for 430 or 530 device
if you are purchasing used one with 2000 4000 hours yes that makes difference.
Did any body see display goes bad on 430/530?
What are the common failures? on 400/500 series?
if 1 supplier will stop producing some specialized chip doesn't mean your unit will be needing it.
looks like it still chipast way to get certified GPS/COM/VOR/ILS today
If i would be finishing airplane today I would probably buy one
if you are purchasing used one with 2000 4000 hours yes that makes difference.
Did any body see display goes bad on 430/530?
What are the common failures? on 400/500 series?
if 1 supplier will stop producing some specialized chip doesn't mean your unit will be needing it.
looks like it still chipast way to get certified GPS/COM/VOR/ILS today
If i would be finishing airplane today I would probably buy one
Oh really!!! Please refer us all to the official Garmin source stating that they will be supporting the hardware of the GNS 430W for ANY period into the future. I am aware that Garmin is currently supporting the device but I am not aware that they have ever committed to supporting the device into the future. I don't think they can do that.
The reality is that they will probably continue to support the hardware for as long as they can source components from their subcontractors.
For example, the screen technology on the 430 is well over 20 years old. Logic says that the manufacturer of that screen will have very little incentive to maintain an antiquated production line for that device for a current sales volume of perhaps a few hundred units a year. In the end it will not be Garmin that pulls the pin on 430W hardware support....it will be their suppliers....one by one...that's the way it goes with sold state devices. So buying a GNS 430W at the moment involves a fair bit of risk that critical parts for repairs may not be available tomorrow. At some price point that risk might be worth taking...but IMHO that price point is certainly not anywhere near $6000. But just my opinion. Incidentally, the average GNS430W is now 12 years old...that's certainly worth thinking about before you plonk down a big bag of money on one.
See post #17 for a statement from the Garmin rep.
I have a feeling my flying days will be over before the 430's is.
Other Bob has a valid point. Repair of the SL-30 is now limited for exactly this reason - a certain consumer-grade chip is no longer available.
Captain Avgas
Well Known Member
The Garmin rep makes no explicit promise in post #17 about 430W hardware support into the future. As I said in my previous post: “I am aware that Garmin is currently supporting the device but I am not aware that they have ever committed to supporting the device into the future.”
But Justin G3XPERT from Garmin can settle this matter in an instant...he’s obviously following this thread because he has already posted on it. So the question for Justin is: How long into the future does Garmin guarantee hardware support for the GNS 430W ???
Watch this space. This will be interesting.
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So the question for Justin is: How long into the future does Garmin guarantee hardware support for the GNS 430W ???
Watch this space. This will be interesting.
Very few gaurantees in business and understandably so. How long does Vans guarantee to support your plane/kit? How long does Lycoming gaurantee to provide parts for your engine? How long does Dynon gaurantee to support their HDX, etc.
The better question is how long does Garmin expect to be able to support the 430 series. They should have a decent idea on parts availability and likely carry a large inventory of high risk parts. I know at one point there was a concern about 430 display availability, but no longer hear about it. I suspect they found a way to rebuild stock.
When most suppliers obsolete a component, they have one large, last run, allowing customers to build up stock to deal with the effect of that move.
Garmin needs/wants to get most of the 430 upgrade business. Alienating their customers by not providing a fair warning on obsolescence could put a wrench in that plan. They have a vested interest in not upsetting their 430 customer base. GA is a small market and Garmin offers many different products to that market. Not saying they wouldn't do it, just pointing out why it is not that likely.
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Repair Support
Yes, please give us a call at 1-866-854-8433 should anything else come up. We can take care of most things for you through this channel, without the need to work through a Garmin Dealer.
Thanks,
Justin
Yes, please give us a call at 1-866-854-8433 should anything else come up. We can take care of most things for you through this channel, without the need to work through a Garmin Dealer.
Thanks,
Justin
skylor
Well Known Member
A 430 "tray compatible" plug in replacement version of the -650 a la Avidyne IFD440 would have helped the "upgrade business" a lot, IMO.
Skylor
DavePlaneGrips
Well Known Member
Anyone talking about businesses "guaranteeing" support for legacy products is not worth listening to, fwiw.
Captain Avgas
Well Known Member
OK, let’s change the word. Hey Justin....how long does Garmin EXPECT they will be able to support the hardware for the GNS 430W ? That’s a fair question.
However as I’ve pointed out previously, it’s unlikely that Justin can answer this question because Garmin don’t know when suppliers of crucial components will pull the pin. It might be in a year...or it might be next month. That’s the very real risk purchasers of second-hand 430 units face.
n82rb
Well Known Member
capt avgas has hit it right on the head. anybody in the electronics game knows how this is played. one of my sensors has just been EOLed. I have a 3 year supply on hand. when those are gone, the 12yrs worth of product ive sold is obsolete and un-serviceable. nothing I can do about it.
the limiting factor in this case will be the screen, and I have heard rumors that the supply is getting very low. custom LCDs are not something you order a few thousand of. the cost is ungodly in small batches. i would guess that garmin ordered a number they thought would run the expected life of the unit plus spares, at one time, and when those are gone they are gone.
the fact that they have offered upgrade deals, the price of service has risen a few times tells us that the end is nearer than farther.
no manufacturer is going to give a date of the end until it is really the end, not good for business. garmin has done a good job of supporting their products but even they cannot beat the system. a new install of a 430/530 is not a good idea.
bob burns
RV-4 N82RB
the limiting factor in this case will be the screen, and I have heard rumors that the supply is getting very low. custom LCDs are not something you order a few thousand of. the cost is ungodly in small batches. i would guess that garmin ordered a number they thought would run the expected life of the unit plus spares, at one time, and when those are gone they are gone.
the fact that they have offered upgrade deals, the price of service has risen a few times tells us that the end is nearer than farther.
no manufacturer is going to give a date of the end until it is really the end, not good for business. garmin has done a good job of supporting their products but even they cannot beat the system. a new install of a 430/530 is not a good idea.
bob burns
RV-4 N82RB
Ah, the rumor mill.
As for whether it's "worth it" or not, that's up to the individual builder, and it kinda depends on what the MTBF is for the unit, as well. If it's in the 10s-100s of thousands of hours, which wouldn't be at all surprising to me, then it might make perfect sense to install one and save the money, betting that if/when it eventually fails, the money saved now can be worth it (or, theoretically, invested and pay for an upgrade down the line).
You are making an assumption that Garmin orders each necessary electrical component every time a 430 is sent in for repair. Smart companies know that they must keep large inventories of parts at high risk of MFD. I trust Garmin is smart enough to do this and why they are not a risk of waking up one day and halting support of the 430 due to component obsolecence.
Further, VERY FEW component manufacturers will "pull the pin" as you say, without offering customers the opportunity to place large orders to stock for the future. Not doint that is a good way to destroy your customer loyalty.
I am not really a garmin flag waver here, just want people to have good data and not run away scared due to fear mongering.
The issue raised by Capt is a real risk and it must be evaluated. However, clear thoughtfull research and evaluation is required. There are many levels of "risk."
Larry
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The fact that Garmin is happily accepting upgrade work from the 430 to 430W, which typically includes a new screen (mine did) tells me that they have solved the display supply issue they supposedly faced some years ago. If they truly were in short supply, it would be relatively foolish to squander them on upgrades instead of saving them for supporting the 13000 units still in the field.
Larry
Captain Avgas
Well Known Member
Sorry Larry but I never assumed "that Garmin orders each necessary electrical component every time a 430 is sent in for repair." Nor did I make any such statement (because it would be ludicrous).
Also guys, lets not forget its "cuteness" factor.
My girlfriend says:
"It has such a tiny little color screen with the little white airplane. It's so cute"
Actually I sold my 430W for about $200 more than I paid for it.
It was less than a year old, and I had saved all the packaging.
A man who owns a small fleet of commercial craft bought it to
have on his parts shelf so there is a fresh 430W on hand when one in his fleet failed.
I upgraded to the GTN650. The screen on the 650 is much better IMHO.
It is easier to navigate the menus as well. Not sure I will move into the newer 650 they just came out with. I'm quite happy with what I have.
Perhaps there will be new features in the software that could change my mind.
My girlfriend says:
"It has such a tiny little color screen with the little white airplane. It's so cute"
Actually I sold my 430W for about $200 more than I paid for it.
It was less than a year old, and I had saved all the packaging.
A man who owns a small fleet of commercial craft bought it to
have on his parts shelf so there is a fresh 430W on hand when one in his fleet failed.
I upgraded to the GTN650. The screen on the 650 is much better IMHO.
It is easier to navigate the menus as well. Not sure I will move into the newer 650 they just came out with. I'm quite happy with what I have.
Perhaps there will be new features in the software that could change my mind.
