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Why not to use 2K Automotive Paint?

RudiGreyling

Well Known Member
Hi Guys,

I am going to play devil's advocate here... :p :D

Couple of people here that have done their RV's in normal Automotive 2K paint swear by it. Cheap, easy to apply, easy to get. Excellent Gloss and Colour retention, High Chemical and Mechanical resistance.

Now...Why should we NOT use 2K Automotive Paint on our RV Airplanes :confused:


I seriously want to know, from people with real experience, why not...
A Link to a good 2K

Regards
Rudi
 
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Or, do like this local -3 builder ...
He painted it with house paint, applied with a roller ... total cost 80 bucks or so (including the masking tape).
It doesn't look great but it isn't bad, either. Can't beat the price!! :D

Last-Resort-Fly-in-005w.jpg


Thomas
 
I am considering the base coat/clear coat paint so that I can use a specific color. I haven't researched the qualities to determine if it will be a good choice. Some paints like Emron are flexible and can withstand the skin flexing. I'm not sure if the base coat/clear coat is elastic enough but I hope it is. I have already determined my paint scheme, both color and graphics, and it will be a bummer if I have to change.
 
Some paints like Emron are flexible and can withstand the skin flexing. I'm not sure if the base coat/clear coat is elastic enough but I hope it is.

I don't know anything about auto paint, but there are "elasticity enhancers" that they add to the paint for painting flexible areas like plastic bumpers. You should be able to find something that works.
 
Two schools

Rudy,

There fundamentally is no reason that you can't use Auto paint. In fact its done all the time.

There are two schools of thought. One use Aero paint and no clear coat - this is probably an easier solution than auto paint. Downsides, not that great of color selection.

With auto paint, you have tons of color choices, it's probably a bit more time consuming as you need to spray it with a clear coat that is UV resistant. I'd say that most of the Lancairs are done in Auto paint, especially the ones that use wild paint schemes. Most get their paint from House of Kolors or other PPG or other Auto paint companies.

With Auto paint, you normally need to wet sand between coats. As for elasticity, that easily accounted for in additives.

It's probably more of an old school vs. new than anything else, and color selection choices obviously.
 
Mix it....

aadamson said:
There are two schools of thought. One use Aero paint and no clear coat - this is probably an easier solution than auto paint. Downsides, not that great of color selection.

Alan ... not quite true.....

A DuPont distributor can mix up any color you want in "aero" paint (any of the Imron variations) I'm sure this is also correct for the other aero paint brands.

Take them a color chip and they can match it. If it's a standard auto color, they may even have a formula handy for it.

Hint.... if you want a nice, basic white, get Imron 817 - matches GM truck white #12, which hasn't changed from the 60's. This is what Grumman did for the Tigers/Cheetahs.

Choice of color should not be a deciding factor.

gil in Tucson
 
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It is incorrect that you need to sand between coats with auto paint. If you want a perfect finish you'll have to wet sand out the orange peel and polish the final coat, but it's not required.
 
TShort said:
Or, do like this local -3 builder ...
He painted it with house paint, applied with a roller ... total cost 80 bucks or so (including the masking tape).
It doesn't look great but it isn't bad, either. Can't beat the price!! :D

Thomas

That is too funny! - reminds me of when I was a kid the neighbour down the street painted his Ford Torino to look like the Starsky & Hutch car using model paints and a little brush. It looked good from 20 feet away, but complete dog doo up close. :D
 
flex???

when you go to the ppg school one of the projects is to paint a piece of aluminum with all the treats.. etch, epoxy (dp 40) prime, sealer, color and clear .you can fold the test piece over and back again and no problems will occur..ive painted numerous cars with lots of overhanging palstic parts and didnt even use the elastomeric additive and they have never craked.. as far as clear vs single stage the single lends itself better to spot repair. the clear requires total panel to be repainted (or at least the clear) for repairs. you dont sand between coats that ive ever seen (show cars using acrylic enamel and laquer used to do this) but that is totaly not required. or desired. the base clear method is time consuming but provides the crutch of being able to sand out ungoddly amounts of trash from the paint..if you go single stage you really dont want to sand and buff the finish,esp. if a metallic. when using base clear method the base must be topcoated in short order. so if you have a fancy scheme this could be a prob. the early birds were painted with acrylic enamel and laquers. imron (polyurethane,trade name by dupont) was developed for aircraft. now virtually all paint is polyuretahne.. well i guess what i'm trying to say is the paint in question is fine for your plane. if you apply it correctly. at bare minimum i would metal prep, self etch and paint...similar to vans method IIRC if you have access to a spray boot of pro quality single stage with your paint and you'll be good to go.
 
With auto paint, you have tons of color choices, it's probably a bit more time consuming as you need to spray it with a clear coat that is UV resistant.

Just to reduce some confusion, there are many, many auto paints that are single stage (don't require clear coat). The PPG Concept line is very popular with RVers and is a high quality, high-solid single stage paint that stands up very well to UV and other contaminants. A couple of coats is all that is required and sanding between coats isn't a necessity unless there are boo-boos that need to be addressed. Color sanding the final coat is certainly an option and it is possible to eliminate some pretty serious problems or produce a mirror-like finish with careful sanding and buffing.

The Concept paint job on my hangared RV-6 (storing the plane out of the sun is the key to long-lived paint jobs, but most RVs are hangared) is seven years old and still looks nearly as good as when fresh:

http://thervjournal.com/paint1.html

I am not familiar with the 2K line of paints but if it yields good results on autos it should work fine on an RV. The RV skin doesn't flex enough to stress modern automotive finishes.
 
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This may come as a surprise to some of you but Francis Poplawski and his dad before him, (one of the best known airplane painters in the world) has been using Sherwin Williams acrylc auto enamel with a urethane hardner for many many years. His paint jobs have withstood time and weather for many years.
 
Is Poplawski still painting at Ennis? Back in the '80s when I was flying around Dallas North, Aero Country, McKinney, Dallas I saw quite a few of his (beautiful!) paint jobs here and there, but nothing lately or around Houston. I've been wondering if they're still active...

Any idea what the price tag might be for a Poplawski RV paint job?
 
Automotive Deltron

Used automotive PPG Deltron with hardener on my last project. Wanted to keep it light with a one coat process but wanted the base coat / clear coat look. G.B.C. (Guy behind the counter) suggested mixing 1/4 color with 3/4 clear on the last spray pass. Came out having a very wet look and after years of outside tie-down, remains that way. Very nice paint for someone without experience and they also had additives to prevent orange peel and fish eye.
NYTOM
6A N822PM (res)
 
cytoxin said:
the single lends itself better to spot repair. the clear requires total panel to be repainted (or at least the clear) for repairs.

I found out through desperation and experimentation that the entire piece, or panel, does not have to be cleared for a repair. After a cowl replacement I found the dark blue came out a little light at the rear edge which mates to the existing blue on the fuselage. Not wanting to redo the whole thing, I tried blending both colors, white and blu, including the striping and finally the clear coat. After buffing I cannot find the transition even though I know about where it should be. I had a great fear of ever needing to do a repair on my two stage paint until I tried this new technique.

Chris
 
Poplawski is still painting airplanes in Ennis. Every time he paints an RV he says, "I'm not painting any more RVs." But he does. He just does not enjoy doing cosmetic filling and fiberglass work. If you want him to paint your RV, you must take it to him ready. Surprisingly his prices are more in line today. He hasn't gone up as much as some of the other shops. His waiting list is loooooong.
 
Francis Poplawski is a top notch aircraft painter. His father was even better. As Mel stated his paint of choice is Sherwin Williams Acry Glo. Good stuff.

There are many good automotive paints but it's been my experience that aircraft specific paints hold up better in the aviation environment.
 
I used Valspar Omega 2k

on the recommendation of an expert airplane painter friend.

I ended up discarding the fresh air breathing system I built and used a standard insecticide respirator as it was not as leathal as I had been led to believe.

I etched the surface with vinegar and used the matching primer...The job is pretty darned good even if I do say so myself.

one coat on the underside, two on the top side, no sanding between coats and 10 to 15 minutes between coats.

Frank

FAA coming to inspect on the 29th August!
 
dirt track cars

like mel said, alot of folks would put the urethane hardener in acrylic enamel and it works really good. ive seeen dirt track racers use it like this on the lower fender portions because without it the sand would eat it up in no time w/o the hardener. however if youve ever sprayed enamel it's overspray will go forever and stick to everything..the urethanes are better for open shop use because they dry faster than enamels..(lots) alot like a laquer.
ive painted many cars and have had many painted, if you or your painter are good you wont need to buff or wet sand anything.
good tecnique+good booth= slick plane/car
the gloss IMHO lasts much longer without any work as compared to a wet sanded and buffed. job. again MHO
wet sanding and buffing gives you some room for error though.and you can(and i have ) buff out alot of trash..i just like the bake and ride approach. some painters fell like a air cure at room temp will provide a slicker finish. i think that depends on the amount of paint applied.it flows for a couple of days..
 
if you or your painter are good you wont need to buff or wet sand anything. good tecnique+good booth= slick plane/car


Very true.

However......some of us paint our planes in a bug/dust/sweat filled garage and don't know what we are doing......... :eek:

Having a finish that can tolerate sanding and buffing (and knowing how to properly sand and buff) for many of us has been the difference between hiding our planes or happily flying to breakfast. :)
 
Auto vs Air Paint

Automotive and Airplane paint are basically the same thing, with some exceptions.
Airplane paint= usually more heat, chemical, and damage resistant. But loads of orange peal in every can LOL, it can be made slick, but not as slick as clear.
Automotive paint= usually less orange peal, fancy colors, and lasts aslong as your payments on the car it was intended to be on.

Both are good choices for, but it depends on what you will do with your airplane. and most important.... HOW ITS PREPPED!!!!!
the old Etch and Alodine is the best way, to prep aluminum. Follow that with a good Zinc Chromate primer, not rattle can!!!! be mindful of your application times and "operating" or crosslinking limits of the materials
For example Jetglo high solids single stage urethane (no clear needed)..
you have a maximum of up too 72 hours (depending on temps) between over all color application and stripe color application, if you do not prep the over all color after that window has expired, your stripes will fall off...
the same holds true for every step in the painting process. do it right or Re do it.

I have been a painter in autobody shops, and aircraft refinishing shops i have painted show winning cars bikes planes boats musical equipment, everything besides a train.. (hmmm a train with a flame job....). I now own a custom aircraft paint shop, and i still do bikes, drag cars, classics, hydro boats etc.. I have painted several RV and Experimental airplanes.. not to mention lots of certified aircraft and war birds.
I have learned that with any system you choose for coating your airplane car or what ever.. there are trade offs that you will have to live with..

With "Airplane"paint like JetGlo, you will trade off color selection, slick finish, and undetectabke tape lines for durability longevity and protection of the aircraft. Mess with the ratios and presures as much as you want, Clear Coat still lays out nicer.
With "automotive" paint Base Clear system you trade off durability and longevity for fancy colors and slick finish (little orange peal). Add all the flex agents (which evaporate with in 30 days anyway) and other additives you want, airplane paint lasts longer.
You have to ask yourself "what do i want to do with this airplane?" and that well help you decide what materials too use... .
Jetglo can last 10 years or more.. if propperly applied and cared for, its tape lines will be thick, and its close to impossible to buff out the orange peal (just dont get orange peal :D) but at 20 feet it looks great! It can resist chemicals and fuel spills, hydrolic fluid, heat, and hanger rash that most paints just cant handle.
While some thing like PPG's base/clear will only last about half that, but its color selection and slick finish will bring home a trophy at most airshows... but if you get hydrolic fluid on it, it could be gone!!

If your airplane is really intended to win shows, something like PPG base clear is the only way too go.
Imron (what is duPont up too now Imron 5000 or something) is old technology, it difficult to use, a nightmare to buff, and impossible to "burn" or "spot" repair when the inevitable damage happens.
i avoid Imron and duPonts Nasen as much as i can, not too say i cant use it, there are so many better products out there.

Sanding between Color and Clear... BIG NO NO!!! It should not be done, unless it is unavoidable... ie, **** fell in it, then re-coat the area.

Waterborn paint.... ugh, they keep trying god bless them, but it just aint there yet.. one day it will be the only thing available, reguardless of how lame it is... Remember laquer? its gone the way of the dinos, urethanes are next on the chopping block.

Man i would love to do this all night, but i have to paint an RV7 right now... If any of this helps please let me know, and if you have any ideas or thoughts id love to hear them.
Thanks yall
 
PainterJohn said:
<snip>..
you have a maximum of up too 72 hours (depending on temps) between over all color application and stripe color application, if you do not prep the over all color after that window has expired, your stripes will fall off...
the same holds true for every step in the painting process. do it right or Re do it... <snip>

Wow John, that is a great write-up thank you.

I have a follow-up question re: the above bit. If I'm understanding you correctly, you only have a short window between 'base' color and stripes? If you miss the window [say you paint the plane white but hold off on any color for a while] can it be 're-preped' and stripes applied later?

I know you are 'PainterJohn' but what about applying vinal color at a later date?

thanks,

John
 
Automotive paint

I used automotive paint from Sherwin Williams on my rv8 and was extremely pleased with the results. It was the traditional basecoat/clear coat. I had absolutely no experience painting so ther was a learning curve to get the right amount of paint without runs/orange peel. I found that the base coat went on extremely well but that the clear coat was more challenging to avoid runs/orange peel. I painted most of the parts using a system where I could rotate the parts to keep the painted surfaces horizontal vice vertical to avoid runs and it worked pretty well. the aircraft has been painted for over a year and looks as good as the day it was painted.
 
Recoating or Striping

Well if you have to wait to stripe after you paint, you will HAVE to "scuff" the surface area that you intend to paint the stripes on. The "base" color refers to the over all color (completed single or 2 stage paint), Its almost imposible to lay out some of the complex paint schemes i have done for my customers in less than 72 hours. So i will usually paint the entire airplane its main color, then i will assemble it for striping. Layout all the stripes dismantle the bird and paint the stripes, some more complex paint jobs will have this process repeated many times to make lines over lap, cross over airbrush fades continue uninterupted etc etc.
Sherwin Williams Ultra 7000 Base Clear system is really good stuff, the only limitations i have found with their product are that 1: the clear will yellow over time, and exposure to excessive heat, and when reducing the color down for fades and custom work, it tends to get a little grainy.
Straight forward painting is usually pretty easy with Sherwin, although they are a little pricey too..
The Sherwin Aero Space line of JetGlo and AcryGlo is awsome. not recomended for airbrush work or fine detail.
With any coating you choose for your airplane, try your best to avoid putting permenant vinyl stickers on it for atleast 10-30 days (depending on temps) Let all the layers and products you applied COMPLETELY out gas. Otherwise you could trap solvents under the sticker, either pushing it of or causing the paint to blister under the sticker, ultimately making everything come off.
Prep and Patenience will help prevent alot of that stuff tho.
Orange peal and Runs... regardless of what anyone says, Orange peal happens, go out side right now and look at your new car, i dont care who built it, its got ORANGE PEAL in its paint job, the trick is too make it as small as you possibly can (good airpreasure, good paint gun, propper mixture of material, REALLY good prep) that way you can buff out the minor imperfections. A slick finish is all about prep, and finishing detail. Some of yall paint in your garage, lots of dust and poor ventalation.. CLEAN the place Wet the floor and buy a few cheap box fans and get as much stuff out of your way as possible, that will help alot.. The rest of the dirt you get came from you personally. 80% of the junk in a paint job you deliver to it, its falling off your clothes, your body, your buddy that wants to watch you.. And jsut plane ol movemnt in the room. I have not met a painter yet who can lay out a slick paint job in crappy conditions, and i have not met a painter yet who has not had to buff something out of a paint job, the car bike plane boat or what ever is like a big piece of FLY PAPER for about and hour or so while paint is being applied.
I am now finished with the Black and Silver RV7, the Eagle on the nose looks cool, the shreaded wings are not installed yet, but should be by the end of the week, the "F15E"/RV7 logo is finished and the verticle and horizontals are installed, it is getting lots of attention on the field here. Some one asked about painting in pieces... I liked painting it that way, i did not like the time it took for the builders to get me parts to paint... but what can you do? cant rush perfection i suppose... check it out http://www.airbornekustomz.com or http://www.airbornekustomz.com/N147RV/N147RV.html
 
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