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Nylocks on Adel clamps FF?

Flying Scotsman

Well Known Member
I was mounting the brackets for the baffles on the engine case last night, and had to remove an Adel clamp holding one of the injector lines in place to get to the bolt. And I found...the Adel clamp is help on to *it's* bracket with a machine screw and a *nylon insert locknut*. I was under the impression those were a no-no firewall forward, especially right around the uber-hot engine itself...and this is a brand new engine from Lycoming.

What gives? I'll replace them with all-metal locknuts now that I know about it, but every one of them is fastened with a Nylock (AN-365).

Thoughts?
 
The IO-360 I bought directly from Superior is the same. I have replaced a couple of nylocks with all metal nuts because I moved the clamps, but still have a couple left. I'm interested to read some views on this myself.
 
Nylocks on TMX engine

My Mattituck TMX-IO360 has nylocks on all the black adel clamps holding the prop governor oil lines and the fuel lines off the flow divider.
 
Lycoming uses Nylocks also.

My Mattituck TMX-IO360 has nylocks on all the black adel clamps holding the prop governor oil lines and the fuel lines off the flow divider.

My Lycoming Experimental IO320 purchased direct from Van's has Nylocks in similar places.
 
Hmmm...strange. I just didn't think that was acceptable, that locking nuts around the engine could NOT be nylon, had to be all-metal.
 
Hmmm...strange. I just didn't think that was acceptable, that locking nuts around the engine could NOT be nylon, had to be all-metal.

It's a very good question that you ask - why is the "real world" different than what you thought? I would counter with "can you show me where it is written down that you can't use nylocks ahead of the firewall?" Most likely, it is something that you learned from someone else verbally (or on the 'net). That's how we all learn at times - from someone with more experience. But....most of the important rules (and facts) have been written down somewhere (AC43.13 is always a good place to start when talking airplanes), so when I hear a "rule" like that, I always ask someone "can you show me where that is written down?"

If you do a documentation search, you will frequently find that opinions are different from facts and data. In this case, Lycoming has certified their engines with the nylocks - probably in places where it is non-critical if they melt off. I know lots of folks that are horrified by the use of tie-wraps forward of the firewall - but they are certainly "legal". If your engine catches fire, wires melting out of bundles is going to be WAY low on your worry list....:eek:

Paul
 
Below quote from online builders guide however the AC43.13 also states nylon locknuts can not be used where temperatures exceed 250 °F (Section 4. NUTS - 7-64.f Fiber or Nylon locknuts.

12.5 Nuts, locking devices and washers

Because of the vibrations associated with aircraft the fasteners used in structural joints must be locked after torquing to ensure that the bolt and/or the nut can't loosen. In fixed airframe joints the resistance to vibration loosening is generally accomplished using self-locking nuts and the standard AN3-20 bolts, without drilled head or shank. Self-locking nuts are, most commonly, of the elastic nylon or fibre insert type (AN365). However those types cannot be used in the engine compartment or anywhere else in the aircraft where exposed to in-flight temperatures exceeding 250 °F (120 °C) because the material starts to lose elasticity and thus its resistance to movement. In such applications a full-metal non-circular self-locking nut (AN363) or a castellated nut (AN310) plus locking cotter pin is required; in the latter case, a drilled shank bolt is necessary.

Not sure what the temps are under the cowl, 250 °F seems a bit high for a typical RV installation.
 
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I have no idea what the temps right there might be, actually...but those things are sitting right smack on top of or just above the cylinders. Bound to get plenty warm, no? And then after shutdown, when there's no cooling airflow? Aren't people worried about the fuel vaporizing in those lines, causing vapor lock, or the "red cube" getting too hot, in precisely those same locations?

Seems to me...that it could, indeed, get quite toasty right there.

But Paul is right...Lycoming engines have no doubt had 'em on there since time immemorial, and it's probably just fine.

Just struck me as curious, what with all the talk about no nylocks FF...
 
Below quote from online builders guide however the AC43.13 also states nylon locknuts can not be used where temperatures exceed 250 ?F (Section 4. NUTS - 7-64.f Fiber or Nylon locknuts.



Not sure what the temps are under the cowl, 250 ?F seems a bit high for a typical RV installation.

As I read this, it says that the nylocks can not be used in the engine comp, OR where the temp exceeds 250------not in the engine comp WHEN it exceeds 250.

Seems to be pretty cut and dried to me.
 
Actually, I just looked it up, and AC 43.13 says ONLY this:

"Fiber or nylon self-locking nuts are not installed in areas where temperatures exceed 250 ?F."

Nothing about the engine compartment at all.
 
AC43.13 does not make that statement.

As I read this, it says that the nylocks can not be used in the engine comp, OR where the temp exceeds 250------not in the engine comp WHEN it exceeds 250.

Seems to be pretty cut and dried to me.

You can use them wherever temperatures do not exceed 250 deg. F. It does not limit their use in the engine compartment. chpt7- pg11- para. g.
 
Hmmmmmmm.......

So the Quote above from Joe, is not correct------Is that what I am hearing you say???
 
IT'S NOT THAT HOT IN THERE

Think about it. Your oil temperature is a pretty good reflection of the engine temperature - and, an inch or two away from the block is substantially less. With the exception of applications directly on the block and on the exhaust system, the nylon likely won't be affected by the heat. BTW, the nylon doesn't lose its elasticity with heat, it fact, it starts to flow or melt around 250 degrees centigrade. That's why these nuts are temperature limited - you don't want the nylon locking ring flowing away from and losing contact pressure with the threads. If the engine manufacturers are using nylon insert nuts in specification applications, I wouldn't change. These are much less prone to galling the bolts. BTW, soon after molding and prior to inserting into the metal nut body, the nylon rings used to be dumped into boiling water to prevent embrittlement. Don't know if they still do that today.
Terry, CFI
RV-9A N323TP
 
Best practice is to use all metal locknuts firewall forward or some other type of locking fastener that is not a nylock.

I have seen FAA Inspectors and DARs not accept nylock nuts firewall forward even though Certificated Hartzell props come with nylock nuts. Some of the other accessories that bolt to our engines may also come with nylock nuts. I have done follow up inspections after FAA Inspectors and accepted nylocks that the FAA Inspector wanted changed even though they are not best practice for use forward of the firewall.

Anything that I do firewall forward will have metal lock nuts or some other type of locking fastener that is not a nylock.

As someone else quoted, AC43.13-1B, chapter 7, Section 4, 7-64:
f. Fiber or nylon locknuts are constructed with an unthreaded fiber or nylon locking insert held securely in place. The fiber or nylon insert provides the locking action because it has a smaller diameter than the nut. Fiber or nylon self-locking nuts are not installed in areas where temperatures exceed 250 ?F. After the nut has been tightened, make sure the bolt or stud has at least one thread showing past the nut. DO NOT reuse a fiber or nylon locknut, if the nut cannot meet the minimum prevailing torque values. (See table 7-2.)
[BOLD added by me to the above.]

For an airworthiness certificate to be issued to an Experimental Aircraft, the Experimental aircraft MUST be in a condition for SAFE operation. Safe will be in the eyes of the inspector or DAR and sometimes there will not be a WRITTEN regulation.

Here are some links to best practice of not using nylock's forward of the firewall.

http://exp-aircraft.com/library/alexande/hardware.html

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=12842&page=2
See post # 13 in above thread.

Joe Norris is the expert on where things are in writing and the regulations. I expect he will make a post to this thread.

From the FAA training seminars that all FAA and DAR Inspectors must go to:
The Applicant must show and the FAA Inspector or the DAR must find that the aircraft meets the requirements for the certificate requested. They also say that it must be in a condition for safe operation.

IF you build your aircraft to BEST practices and can show the FAA Inspector or DAR that you are using best practices, more than likely the Airworthiness Certificate will be issued for UNLIMITED duration. IF you cannot show, you may not get the Airworthiness Certificate, you may get one of limited duration, or you may get a longer flight test period to PROVE that the aircraft can be operated safely.

Change of subject:
Would an FAA Inspector or DAR issue an airworthiness certificate to an Experimental Aircraft that has the shoulder belts hand sewn to the structure? Is that a condition for safe operation if the builder cannot show that it is at least as strong as a factory belt? (Note: There is NO REGULATION that I know of that REQUIRE safety belts in Amateur Built Aircraft.)

I spent a little bit of my time showing you links to best practice of NOT using nylock nuts forward of the firewall. Now it is your turn to show me links that best practice includes the builder using nylocks for stuff he does forward of the firewall.
 
My IA Ap buddy and I had a discussion about this as I readied my Rv-7 for first flight. His opinion is that the modern nylocks would take somewhere in the neighborhood of 400-500 degrees to affect them. That is not going to happen unless they are attched directly to the cylinder heads.

The topic came up because a Cessna 210 in the shop had nylock nuts on the prop bolts engine side

Just a thought
 
"Now it is your turn to show me links that best practice includes the builder using nylocks for stuff he does forward of the firewall."

I won't show you that, because I agree with you...since *I* don't know the temps FF in every area, all of MY Adel clamps, e.g., are help on with all-steel locknuts. I intend using all-steel locknuts everywhere I install a locknut FF.

But in the case of an engine built and delivered by Lycoming, should we not defer to their expertise? After all, if nylocks are unairworthy or unsafe on *my* IO-360, then wouldn't they be unsafe on all those Pipers and Cessnas, and shouldn't they be grounded? :)
 
Precision Uses them too...

Silverhawk injectors use them on the mixture arm.
My general experience has been that the original engineers are far better at engineering than I and my attempts to redesign what they have done can lead to unintended consequences.
I would not consider changing out nylon nuts where the manufacturer chose to use them. There may be a very good reason that they made that choice.
 
Silverhawk injectors use them on the mixture arm.
My general experience has been that the original engineers are far better at engineering than I and my attempts to redesign what they have done can lead to unintended consequences.
I would not consider changing out nylon nuts where the manufacturer chose to use them. There may be a very good reason that they made that choice.

They even have a torque spec for it:

MIXTURE LEVER ELASTIC STOP NUT
90-100 lb-in.

No WAY would I monkey with such a critical design element. Precision Airmotive designed that part a certain way, and I'm confident they knew what they were doing, and I'll keep it *exactly* the way they designed it.
 
Assumptions...

We are all assuming that these elastic stop nuts are of the AN365 variety.

The Lycoming IO-320/360 application mentioned previously calls for a STD-670 nut.

The Mil specs. do cover some non-metallic (their terminology) stop nuts that have a 450 F rating.

This one is a nickel-copper alloy, but comes in a 450F version -

http://www.everyspec.com/MIL-SPECS/MIL+SPECS+(MIL-N)/download.php?spec=MIL-N-25027-1A.006770.PDF

...and this one, stainless, but looks "normal"...

http://www.everyspec.com/MS+Specs/MS1/download.php?spec=MS17830D.006769.PDF

So some non-metallic lock nuts can have a 450 F rating - we should not assume that the Lycoming ones are just the run-of-the-mill AN365 ones rated at 250F...:)

Parts are not just parts....
 
We are all assuming that these elastic stop nuts are of the AN365 variety.

The Lycoming IO-320/360 application mentioned previously calls for a STD-670 nut.

The Mil specs. do cover some non-metallic (their terminology) stop nuts that have a 450 F rating.

This one is a nickel-copper alloy, but comes in a 450F version -

http://www.everyspec.com/MIL-SPECS/MIL+SPECS+(MIL-N)/download.php?spec=MIL-N-25027-1A.006770.PDF

...and this one, stainless, but looks "normal"...

http://www.everyspec.com/MS+Specs/MS1/download.php?spec=MS17830D.006769.PDF

So some non-metallic lock nuts can have a 450 F rating - we should not assume that the Lycoming ones are just the run-of-the-mill AN365 ones rated at 250F...:)

Parts are not just parts....

Good point...but they suuuure looked like cad-plated AN365s to me. Have to check them again when I get home...very interesting, good info Gil.
 
Hey Gil,

My O-320 Parts Manual (still have it from my big-engined Yankee days!) lists AN365's as standard for the Adel clamps holding the primer lines to the induction tubes. Nothing special about them.

Paul
 
Your nuts aren't going to fly without an airworthiness certificate. Any type of nuts. I suggest more time be spent shopping for a inspector who will buy off your project using a type of hardware that HE accepts. Use a bit of common sense here, guys. You can waive specs and point to examples all you want, but if the man doesn't sign, sayonara Charlie.

Two years ago the unenlightened Luddites at the SEA FSDO mandated a wet compass even if your EFIS's magnetic direction indicator met the FAR definition for a compass. So several DARs I interviewed from that region wouldn't stick their necks out. My local hand-wringing BOI FSDO demands .040 lockwire on props even though Hartzell calls out .032. One of their DARs didn't care which (and my 1st project was his 1st time buying off a ship as IFR without a wet compass). He got the business and I got the A/W.

And there are nylocks under the hood.

John Siebold
 
Over reaction

I believe this is a case where at some point, it was decided that it was a bad idea to have nylocks FWF. As Paul noted and others, there are many examples of nylock FWF, even by the engine and accessory manufacturers.

There are plenty of things up front that are going to melt down long before a nylock. AC43-13 notes in areas above 250 degrees. Even in the heat of AZ in the middle of the summer I don't think my engine area is reaching 250.

In conclusion, although it is probably a good idea to use metal lock nuts, evidence shows nylocks meet the protocols of 43-13.

Now, which primer should I use on the new project.:D
 
My 0.02

I am not replacing any nuts that came with the engine/injector/Van's kits..but every nut I put FWF is a metal non-nylock nut. Just checked Wick's catalog..an 8-32 nylock is 18 cents..and all metal is 36 cents..Even if there were a hundred of them FWF, which is unlikely, it's less than $20 bucks..I will sleep better at night not taking a chance....there are better places to save $$$.
 
Interesting, but only...

Hey Gil,

My O-320 Parts Manual (still have it from my big-engined Yankee days!) lists AN365's as standard for the Adel clamps holding the primer lines to the induction tubes. Nothing special about them.

Paul

...shows my point.

My 1970 O-320 Parts Manual shows the AN365 on the primer on the induction tubes as you point out... but you could say that they are cooler on the lower engine, as hot air rises and accumulates under the cowl in the upper part of the engine.

That same manual does show STD-670 nut for the IO injection tubes on the upper part of the engine.

Do we really know what a STD-670 part really is?

Again, use the parts the manual says for the location given...:)

...and if in doubt, use the all-metal lock nuts...
 
Actually.....

but you could say that they are cooler on the lower engine, as hot air rises and accumulates under the cowl in the upper part of the engine.

With a "down-draft" cooling system, the temperature just below the cylinders is the hottest air during flight.
The "hot air rises" is only relevant while the aircraft is static.
 
Like most builders and because of potential exposure to high temperatures, I routinely install all metal locknuts FWF but my efforts go way beyond that limited application. Always cognizant of saving weight wherever possible, from one end to the airframe to the other I almost always install all metal locknuts wherever fiber or nyloc type nuts are called out. Rightly or wrongly I reason that the military combat jets I used to help build certainly do not use locknuts with a nylon or fiber insert anywhere on the airframe so why should I? The all metal locknuts I installed on the RV-6A main spar continue to remain torqued to spec after over 5 years of operational service and with approximately 88 nuts required just to fasten its main spar, that represents no insignificant weight savings. Nyloc or fiber locknuts are provided to kit builders for very good reasons, not the least of which is cost. However, one such nut weighs twice as much as an all metal nut. Now, I realize that no one thing I can do to save weight on my RV will actually save all that much weight on a stand alone basis but such efforts taken in the aggregate certainly result in a significant and personally rewarding weight savings.

fd4k28.jpg
 
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Yep...

With a "down-draft" cooling system, the temperature just below the cylinders is the hottest air during flight.
The "hot air rises" is only relevant while the aircraft is static.

...I was trying to make the point that the hottest temps may be on the ramp in the desert with a dark painted cowl immedaiately after shut down - the "hot air rises" bit.

When cooling airflow is present - in either direction - that may not actually be the worse case engine temperature at locations away from the cylinder heads.

I guess I was a few words short to make the point properly...:D

It's too late in the year to perform the 100+ F test in Tucson, but bit of water dropped on the engine after flight could easily verify 212 F temps...:)
 
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...Like most builders and because of potential exposure to high temperatures, I routinely install all metal locknuts FWF but my efforts go way beyond that limited application...

A couple of days ago I started to write a response to this thread and ended up with a paragraph that was essentially identical to yours. I deleted it thinking it would somehow be viewed as combative and hostile to someone, but now that you are out in the open...

...Ditto :D
 
...Just checked Wick's catalog..an 8-32 nylock is 18 cents..and all metal is 36 cents..Even if there were a hundred of them FWF, which is unlikely, it's less than $20 bucks..I will sleep better at night not taking a chance....there are better places to save $$$.
Which is why not only did we use all metal FF, but used all metal on all of the controls too.
 
Like most builders and because of potential exposure to high temperatures, I routinely install all metal locknuts FWF but my efforts go way beyond that limited application.
.
.
.
Rightly or wrongly I reason that the military combat jets I used to help build certainly do not use locknuts with a nylon or fiber insert anywhere on the airframe so why should I?
I am just glad there are better options to use firewall forward then the old pal nuts that I have to use on the C-85 in my 140. I think those things suck.

Rick, I am disappointed in you. I would have thought you used Hi-Loks.
 
Gotcha Mike!

Which raises the question, does Lycoming, or other engine shops have access to high temp nylocks??

Where is GAHCO when you need his input??

[answer= trying to sell enough hardware to order my engine!;)]

It is not only the temperature you see during normal operations that count, it is the the temperature that the fastener combination can be subject to during all possible phases of operation.

For Locknut Info from our Tech Info Library
http://www.gen-aircraft-hardware.com/images/pdf/Locknuts.pdf

Nylocks max recommended temp is 250 degrees Fahrenheit.
Will it always become useless at more than that, NO!, but it will not be as useful either. So keep these out of the engine compartment and other areas that will expose them to that type of heat.

Steel cad plated nuts are good to 450 F.

Stainless Silver Plated Nuts are good to 800 F.

MS20500, High Temp Stainless (A286) Silver Plated are good to 1,200 F.
Typically these are used on Turbo's and associated exhaust plumbing.

Nylock's are fine on props, if your prop exceeds 250 F. you have got bigger issues.

At a minimum all metal locknuts in the engine compartment.

Evaluate all materials in your engine compartment, especially your fuel and oil hoses or hard lines.

Old hoses stiff from their proximity to heat, radiated from glowing exhaust or just cooling air on the hot side is in my opinion a huge concern to airworthiness.

Sheilds and Firesleeve could truly be a life saver.
http://www.gen-aircraft-hardware.com/images/pdf/firesleeve.pdf
 
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