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Picked up an earthX LiFePo4 battery at Oshkosh

EarthX Distribution in Canada

Does EarthX have distribution in Canada??? Any issues shipping batteries across the border? Thanks in advance.
 
Small earthx

I know that that 24 doesn't have the options of the 680. The starter I have says it should draw about 200 amps so it looks like the 24 would work. Is there a reason why you think its to small. I like the weight and the price.
 
Does EarthX have distribution in Canada??? Any issues shipping batteries across the border? Thanks in advance.

Aircraft Spruce Canada lists them. Apparently only 2 models ship as dangerous goods. The MSDS is also there, sounds like it shouldn't be an issue ...
 
ETX680 from Aircraft Spruce Canada

Does EarthX have distribution in Canada??? Any issues shipping batteries across the border? Thanks in advance.

I purchased an ETX680 from Aircraft Spruce Canada. It shipped via Canada Post just fine.

BTW.... the ETX680 is actually thicker than the PC680. I had to build a new battery box to accommodate the ETX680.



Cheers,
Ackselle
 
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battery box

Here's the battery box I made for the 36C, installed on the firewall of my new 7. I used 1/2" angle and some scrap .032 sheet. The box was powder coated. 6 ounces. TT to build about 4 hours including a rough sketch.

14oepd.jpg
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2uo41z9.jpg


kei7av.jpg
 
Lots of coating

Out of curiosity, what was the thinking behind it being powder coated?


I had the roll bar, canopy frame, engine mount and numerous other parts powder coated. I like the "finished" look and not just bare metal. Also not a fan of gray. I had many parts anodized as well.
 
I know that that 24 doesn't have the options of the 680. The starter I have says it should draw about 200 amps so it looks like the 24 would work. Is there a reason why you think its to small. I like the weight and the price.

The initial inrush current from your starter will measure closer to 600 amps which is why you need the ETX680 at a minimum. For any vehicle, the charging system is one of the most used systems and under sizing any of the components, which would include the alternator, the starter or the battery, will have poor performance results, cause additional stresses to the system and cause premature failures.

I understand that the cost of the batteries can be restrictive and is not for everyone. Based on this, we recommend buying a lead acid battery that meets your needs than buy an under sized lithium battery.

Fly Lightly,
Kathy
 
very nice design and construction. I like the hold down better than the one I built. High quality, I cannot wait to see the rest of your plane. Keep pounding, one day it will fly and you enter a new chapter.
 
First new product to be introduced in 2016!

Based on many of you requesting a battery box that could be interchangeable between the ETX680/ETX900 or the PC680.......we have listened and we have it! The mounting holes are exactly the same as the one Van's sells for the PC680 so no modifications needed there, it weight just over 8 ounces and cost $59. If you want to read more about it check it out here at:

http://earthxmotorsports.com/shop/multi-use-battery-box-for-etx680-etx900-and-the-pc680-odyssey

Fly Lightly!
Kathy
 
My plane goes in for annual the end of this month. The PC680 is just about 4 years old and beginning to show signs of aging sooooooo..... I ordered the EarthX 680 and the new battery box. They say it matches up with the existing holes so I'll let you know how the exchange goes. Really nice folks at EarthX, I must say.
 
Battery comparison

I was able to get some testing done today, and thought I would share with everyone here. I currently have an Odyssey PC925 in the RV10, and have always used that battery in both RV10's, changing it out every 3 years. The battery always tested good, but I really don't care to be stranded somewhere. It's 3 years since I installed the last one and time for a change, and I thought I would look into EarthX batteries again, seeing as they have some more choices now and a pretty good track record from what I can tell.
Kathy at EarthX was kind enough to send me both a ETX 900 and an ETX 1200 so I could compare them. I certainly don't have a lab for testing batteries, but here's what I decided to do:
Crank for 10 seconds and see what the rpm's were using an optical tach. Then run the full avionics load for 45 mins. Then crank for 10 seconds again and count RPM's and measure cranking voltage.

Here's what I got:

PC 925
  • initial voltage with everything on: 12.4 v
  • cranking rpms: 120
  • 30 minutes load: 11.8 v
  • 45 mins load 11.7
  • crank after 45 mins 80 rpm and 10.0 v

ETX 900
  • initial voltage with everything on 13.2
  • cranking rpm's 140
  • 30 mins load 12.7
  • 45 mins load 12.6
  • crank after 45 mins load 120-140 rpms 10.6 v

ETX 1200
  • initial voltage with everthing on 13.1v
  • crank 10 seconds 160 rpm
  • 30 mins load 12.8v
  • 45 mins load 12.7
  • crank after 45 mins 140 rpm 11.9v

Conclusions: either the 900 or the 1200 are adequate for the RV10 in my estimation. I was really impressed with the power out of a box that is so light!

As luck would have it my friend and fellow RV10 driver Ted Chipps needs a battery for his 10 and he chose the 900, so I will put the 1200 in mine and I will report back on this list of any findings. Hopefully we will be able to get some good long-term data from these 2 aircraft that are similarly equipped.

Kudos to Kathy and the team at Earthx!

Vic
 
I was able to get some testing done today, and thought I would share with everyone here. I currently have an Odyssey PC925 in the RV10, and have always used that battery in both RV10's, changing it out every 3 years. The battery always tested good, but I really don't care to be stranded somewhere. It's 3 years since I installed the last one and time for a change, and I thought I would look into EarthX batteries again, seeing as they have some more choices now and a pretty good track record from what I can tell.
Kathy at EarthX was kind enough to send me both a ETX 900 and an ETX 1200 so I could compare them. I certainly don't have a lab for testing batteries, but here's what I decided to do:
Crank for 10 seconds and see what the rpm's were using an optical tach. Then run the full avionics load for 45 mins. Then crank for 10 seconds again and count RPM's and measure cranking voltage.

Here's what I got:

PC 925
  • initial voltage with everything on: 12.4 v
  • cranking rpms: 120
  • 30 minutes load: 11.8 v
  • 45 mins load 11.7
  • crank after 45 mins 80 rpm and 10.0 v

ETX 900
  • initial voltage with everything on 13.2
  • cranking rpm's 140
  • 30 mins load 12.7
  • 45 mins load 12.6
  • crank after 45 mins load 120-140 rpms 10.6 v

ETX 1200
  • initial voltage with everthing on 13.1v
  • crank 10 seconds 160 rpm
  • 30 mins load 12.8v
  • 45 mins load 12.7
  • crank after 45 mins 140 rpm 11.9v

Conclusions: either the 900 or the 1200 are adequate for the RV10 in my estimation. I was really impressed with the power out of a box that is so light!

As luck would have it my friend and fellow RV10 driver Ted Chipps needs a battery for his 10 and he chose the 900, so I will put the 1200 in mine and I will report back on this list of any findings. Hopefully we will be able to get some good long-term data from these 2 aircraft that are similarly equipped.

Kudos to Kathy and the team at Earthx!

Vic

While I like to see controlled lab tests, this is well done for real world conditions! Nicely done Vic. The extra energy density really shows in the second spin test.

Are you going to vent it in case of a failure to keep the potential of gas out of the cabin?
 
Venting

Well, I didn't see any requirements for venting, and it is aft of the baggage, and the 10 has really lots of cabin airflow, so I didn't build a box for it.

VIc
 
Well, I took out the Odyssey and installed the Earth X ETX 680. It was certainly a snug fit as I had to wiggle the battery into the existing box on the firewall but is DID fit. I purchased the new box from Earth X but I think I'll send it back. The difference in cranking is significant. Cranking with the Odyssey was about 100 RPM. The new Earth X is 140 RPM. The old battery would take t tries to get the engine to crank, the new one just spins the prop no problem. Overall I'm quite happy. After start, charging amps were only 3.
 
Press Release from EarthX

Dear Vans readers, as promised, we at EarthX said we would make new announcements here and we know many of you not only fly an RV but have other aircrafts as well, including a Sonex aircraft so here is our exciting press release news today:


EarthX now approved by Sonex Aircraft, LLC!​
January 18, 2016, Windsor, CO
EarthX Motorsports is proud to announce that a Sonex Aircraft has become a dealer for the complete line of EarthX products. Sonex has tested the EarthX aircraft battery line and approves their use in Sonex Aircraft designs.
EarthX currently has 3 battery models designed specifically for the aircraft market; the ETX680, ETX900 and the ETX1200. EarthX lithium batteries can significantly decrease the weight of your aircraft (11+ pounds instantly) and increase your cranking amps all with one product! All of these aircraft models have a fully integrated battery management system (BMS) that is also redundant and have an LED battery fault light indicator that can be used in your EFIS system or a simple LED light on your panel. EarthX aircraft batteries meet the requirements set forth by Sonex Aircraft, for all Sonex engine installations, and for the AeroConversions AeroVee line of engines for use on any airframe. The BMS provides over discharge protection, over charge protection, short circuit protection, and excessive cranking protection (temperature sensing) in addition to integrated cell balancing technology. Check it out at www.earthxmotorsports.com

Sonex Aircraft, LLC is a leader in the experimental kit aircraft industry, providing a series of sport aircraft along with the AeroConversions line of products, which include the AeroVee engine, AeroVee Turbo, AeroInjector and ancillary aviation products. Sonex Aircraft?s Sonex, Waiex, and Onex sport planes, the Xenos sport motorglider, and the SubSonex Personal Jet, offer outstanding performance in an easy to build, easy to fly kit package that can be purchased and completed with full technical support at an unrivaled price. Highly regarded as an engineering company, Sonex has diversified its offerings to include the Teros line of UAV aircraft for civil and defense missions in conjunction with Navmar Applied Sciences Corporation. Sonex and AeroConversions continue to invest heavily in developing new products. Our team is committed to providing simple, elegant and low-cost solutions for sport flying. Simply put, Sonex Aircraft and AeroConversions products provide the Best Performance Per Dollar. Check us out at www.SonexAircraft.com and www.AeroConversions.com
__________________
 
I was able to get some testing done today, and thought I would share with everyone here. I currently have an Odyssey PC925 in the RV10, and have always used that battery in both RV10's, changing it out every 3 years. The battery always tested good, but I really don't care to be stranded somewhere. It's 3 years since I installed the last one and time for a change, and I thought I would look into EarthX batteries again, seeing as they have some more choices now and a pretty good track record from what I can tell.
Kathy at EarthX was kind enough to send me both a ETX 900 and an ETX 1200 so I could compare them. I certainly don't have a lab for testing batteries, but here's what I decided to do:
Crank for 10 seconds and see what the rpm's were using an optical tach. Then run the full avionics load for 45 mins. Then crank for 10 seconds again and count RPM's and measure cranking voltage.

Here's what I got:

PC 925
  • initial voltage with everything on: 12.4 v
  • cranking rpms: 120
  • 30 minutes load: 11.8 v
  • 45 mins load 11.7
  • crank after 45 mins 80 rpm and 10.0 v

ETX 900
  • initial voltage with everything on 13.2
  • cranking rpm's 140
  • 30 mins load 12.7
  • 45 mins load 12.6
  • crank after 45 mins load 120-140 rpms 10.6 v

ETX 1200
  • initial voltage with everthing on 13.1v
  • crank 10 seconds 160 rpm
  • 30 mins load 12.8v
  • 45 mins load 12.7
  • crank after 45 mins 140 rpm 11.9v

Conclusions: either the 900 or the 1200 are adequate for the RV10 in my estimation. I was really impressed with the power out of a box that is so light!

As luck would have it my friend and fellow RV10 driver Ted Chipps needs a battery for his 10 and he chose the 900, so I will put the 1200 in mine and I will report back on this list of any findings. Hopefully we will be able to get some good long-term data from these 2 aircraft that are similarly equipped.

Kudos to Kathy and the team at Earthx!

Vic

Vic,
Would you kind posting som photos of the battery mounted in the 10?

Thanks,
Shannon
 
Here is the original PC 925:



Here is the ETX 900. What you can't see here is that I put in wood filler blocks along the back side and rear to hold it in place. The normal tie down holder seems to work very well. Both batteries are very secure and are not going anywhere.




Here is the ETX 1200:



Vic
 
Stud size

Can someone tell me the stud size of the Earth X batt replacement for PC680?

Doing wiring and want to use the right terminals for this unit.
 
6mm

Can someone tell me the stud size of the Earth X batt replacement for PC680?

Doing wiring and want to use the right terminals for this unit.

Thanks for the question and it is the same size as the PC680 which is 6mm.

Fly Lightly!

Kathy
 
Sun-N-Fun

Kathy -
Will your company be there this year? I will be looking to examine your batteries very carefully and picking your corporate brains!

Sam
 
Sorry Sam!

Kathy -
Will your company be there this year? I will be looking to examine your batteries very carefully and picking your corporate brains!

Sam

Thank you Sam for inquiring but we will not be at Sun-N-Fun this year. We did just attend the Sebring Airshow in January in Florida and we will be in Hangar C for Oshkosh in July. Please feel free to call me directly (970) 674-8884 and I will be very happy to talk to you directly.

Fly Lightly,
Kathy
 
New Press release from EarthX

Again, as promised EarthX is letting your know first when we have something new to announce! In addition to Rotax Engines, Aerovee Engines, and Viking Engines....we are proud to say UL Power Engines USA are also using and endorsing the EarthX aircraft line of batteries.

EarthX now approved by Kaolin Aviation, the USA distributor of the UL Power Engines​

Koalin Aviation is the North American Service Center for UL Power engines and a full service aviation maintenance company which offers builder assistance services located in Sandersville, Georgia. Koalin Aviation is also the designer and developer for Fire Wall Forward (FWF) Kits for installing UL Power engines into various kit airplanes.

UL Power light aircraft engines are truly modern engines featuring FADEC (full authority digital engine control) with multi-point electronic fuel injection, and dual electronic ignition (with variable timing), excellent power-to-weight ratio, and high fuel efficiency in a conventional configuration: Air-cooled, direct drive, horizontally opposed four-cylinder. UL Power Engines have been developed specifically for use in light aircraft and are manufactured to the highest standards which is why they recommend the EarthX brand of lithium batteries in conjunction with their engines for a light but powerful experience.

Check out UL Power at www.ulpower.net or email Kaolin Aviation at [email protected]

Fly Lightly,
Kathy
 
New product annuncement from EarthX!

Another announcement from EarthX lithium batteries. We have a new battery box available now for the very soon to be released ETX680C aircraft battery. This battery will have all the same spec's as the ETX680 but in a compact size due to many of you requesting this as an option. Here's the details about the battery box:

Custom fit Aluminum Battery Box for ETX680C
$49.00


Custom made aluminum battery box designed specifically for the EarthX ETX680C, the newest aircraft model to be released in March 2016! This battery box was engineered to be strong enough to withstand 30 G of force yet only weighs 4.9 ounces or 140 grams and will fit your ETX680C like a glove. This unique design allows for simple, easy installation with the dimensions: 5.9″ L x 3.4″ W x 4.5″H.

Fly Lightly,
Kathy
 
We installed a 900 in our bush plane project last week, testing it for a magazine project. We had a battery box designed for the PC680, and it took a little bit of shim between the box and the firewall to get it to slide in nicely, but that mod took about a half hour to accomplish - easy, but you can't just expect it to slide into a tight PC680 box without a little work. Now if we had to put a 680 in, we could just add a shim - goign that way is simple.

The real news is that we did the first engine start yesetrday, and I was absolutely shocked at the power in this battery! We did the typical cranking with top spark plugs out for about thirty seconds to build up oil pressure, and the starter was spinning the engine so that the prop was a blur. Then we put the plugs in - and it spun over almost as fast - and this with high compression pistons!

I'll report back as we get some time on the battery as to how it performs, but so far - I'm impressed. More to come!
 
New ETX680C is ready now!

Another announcement from EarthX lithium batteries. We have a new battery box available now for the very soon to be released ETX680C aircraft battery. This battery will have all the same spec's as the ETX680 but in a compact size due to many of you requesting this as an option. Here's the details about the battery box:

Custom fit Aluminum Battery Box for ETX680C
$49.00


Custom made aluminum battery box designed specifically for the EarthX ETX680C, the newest aircraft model to be released in March 2016! This battery box was engineered to be strong enough to withstand 30 G of force yet only weighs 4.9 ounces or 140 grams and will fit your ETX680C like a glove. This unique design allows for simple, easy installation with the dimensions: 5.9″ L x 3.4″ W x 4.5″H.

Fly Lightly,
Kathy

As promised, the ETX680C is available now! http://earthxmotorsports.com/shop/etx680c and we also now have turn key solutions for the LED battery fault light indicator for the aircraft batteries. One is 5mm in diameter with 4 feet of wire, http://earthxmotorsports.com/shop/lumex-17-8mm-led-panel-mount-indicator and the other is 17.8mm in diameter with a 6 inch lead, http://earthxmotorsports.com/shop/dialight-557-1103-203f-led-panel-mount-indicator. The ETX680C has all the power of the ETX680, just in a compact size! McDonalds super sizes.....EarthX shrink sizes.

Fly Lightly,
Kathy
 
Issue with 2 earthX batterys

Purchased battery's in October 2015 and finally decided to install them
when opened box had surprise! It sounds and fills like lithium elements inside plastic case are moving when you shaking the case. According to my knowledge this is fire hazard situation did I get 2 bad battery's?? or all of them like this ????
 
Search VAF, I'm pretty sure I saw someone else mentioning having the same issue ... and from memory only at least, EarthX said "not dangerous, but should not happen, we will fix" (or something to that effect).
 
That was a guy from down under, not sure what forum it was in. Return shipping charges were the issue for him.

Doug Reeves was following that earlier thread quite closely and closed it down as soon as it was resolved.
Maybe DR could point to where it was?
 
Contact EarthX

Purchased battery's in October 2015 and finally decided to install them
when opened box had surprise! It sounds and fills like lithium elements inside plastic case are moving when you shaking the case. According to my knowledge this is fire hazard situation did I get 2 bad battery's?? or all of them like this ????

I have reached out to vluvelin via this forum after reading this posting as we at EarthX have not been contacted with any type of an issue or problem.

We did have a battery issue that was discussed on this forum as one of the foam inserts inside the battery was not placed as it should have been and it caused a slight movement of the cell pack inside. This part of the process in building the batteries is not automated. There are thousands of the EarthX batteries out in service with less than a handful that had a foam spacer not placed, but to err is human and we did take care of the customer 100% on this issue with a new battery. (This does not make them dangerous, nor actual non functioning).

But as far as this one....until we hear from him, we will not know what might have happened.

Fly Lightly,
Kathy
 
I have reached out to vluvelin via this forum after reading this posting as we at EarthX have not been contacted with any type of an issue or problem.

We did have a battery issue that was discussed on this forum as one of the foam inserts inside the battery was not placed as it should have been and it caused a slight movement of the cell pack inside. This part of the process in building the batteries is not automated. There are thousands of the EarthX batteries out in service with less than a handful that had a foam spacer not placed, but to err is human and we did take care of the customer 100% on this issue with a new battery. (This does not make them dangerous, nor actual non functioning).

But as far as this one....until we hear from him, we will not know what might have happened.

Fly Lightly,
Kathy

Kathy
My impression of the previous thread was EarthX did respond to the problem in a good and customer oriented way to resolve the issue (it was not me with the problem - I just followed the thread).
John
 
What puzzled me that 2 batterys have same movement inside sounds like 1/4 inch. Just wanted to know if others have similar moving/shifting

I was contacted by manufacturer and it sounds like bad bach of batterys

I will post an update later after talking to them
 
New Press Release Information

Again, as promised EarthX is letting your know first when we have something new to announce! In addition to Rotax Engines, Aerovee Engines, and Viking Engines....we are proud to say UL Power Engines USA are also using and endorsing the EarthX aircraft line of batteries.

EarthX now approved by Kaolin Aviation, the USA distributor of the UL Power Engines​

Koalin Aviation is the North American Service Center for UL Power engines and a full service aviation maintenance company which offers builder assistance services located in Sandersville, Georgia. Koalin Aviation is also the designer and developer for Fire Wall Forward (FWF) Kits for installing UL Power engines into various kit airplanes.

UL Power light aircraft engines are truly modern engines featuring FADEC (full authority digital engine control) with multi-point electronic fuel injection, and dual electronic ignition (with variable timing), excellent power-to-weight ratio, and high fuel efficiency in a conventional configuration: Air-cooled, direct drive, horizontally opposed four-cylinder. UL Power Engines have been developed specifically for use in light aircraft and are manufactured to the highest standards which is why they recommend the EarthX brand of lithium batteries in conjunction with their engines for a light but powerful experience.

Check out UL Power at www.ulpower.net or email Kaolin Aviation at [email protected]

Fly Lightly,
Kathy

Hope everyone who went to Sun N Fun had a great time! Sorry we could not be there this year but we are in Hangar C at Oshkosh and we will be in Anchorage at the end of this month for the Great Alaska Aviation Gathering.

Couple of announcements, we have added Continental Motors to the list of aircraft engine manufacturers who is endorsing the EarthX aircraft batteries for use with their experimental engine line!

We are also proud to announce that Mosquito Helicopter (parent company is named Innovator Technologies) as an OEM using the EarthX line of batteries to power their amazing helicopters! In fact, they sent out a bulletin to all of their current customers recommending switching out their current battery for the EarthX battery based on their engineering data of improvements to the power and weight of their helicopters when using the EarthX battery. :)

More exciting announcements coming!!!

Fly Lightly,
Kathy
 
Battery Advice

Hi Vans forum readers! I thought I would post a simple, tried and true, piece of battery advice whether it is for a lead acid or lithium battery as many of you are getting your aircrafts out of storage and ready to fly!

A very simple suggestion for you to get the most longevity out of your battery is to: 1. Measure the voltage of the battery with a voltmeter. If it is a lead acid battery, the voltage should be 12.6V-12.8V at a minimum before you attempt to start your aircraft. If it is a lithium battery, the voltage should be no less than 13.28V. 2. If the voltage is less than the above measurements, charge the battery prior to starting your aircraft. This will make your plane and your battery happy!

Fly Lightly,

Kathy
 
New gadget at EarthX!

Hi Vans forum readers! Just wanted to let you all know that we really do listen to you when you send us emails or stop by and chat with us at a tradeshow!

Based on that, many of you requested/suggested a LONGER quick connect cables for either charging or jumping your battery if needed that could be long enough to actually put through the control panel (many different ways you can do that) so you can do this right from the cockpit and we have it! This cable is 48" long at the cost is $29.99. :)

http://earthxmotorsports.com/shop/48-inch-long-quick-connect-chargingjump-start

Fly Lightly,
Kathy
 
Presenter at the Oshkosh Air show

We just found out that we are chosen to be presenters at a forum at EAA Air Venture in Oshkosh. :)D) We are very excited about this and as you all have been an excellent source of "inside" information on what pilots really want, I wanted to ask for your thoughts on the subject.

We do NOT want the presentation to be a sells pitch for EarthX! We do want it to be an informative session about questions you really want to know about lithium batteries. So that being said, what questions would you like to see addressed?

Fly Lightly,
Kathy
 
Potential failure modes of common BMS's built in to some of the popular LiFePo batteries, effects on the battery when the BMS failure results in the battery remaining online during overvoltage or some other event, and how to mitigate/eliminate those BMS failure modes.

The thing keeping many from embracing Lithium chemistry batteries in our aircraft is the (lack of) understanding of the above.

edit: Also a few demonstrations would be great. Hook your 12V battery to a 24V charger and show us that the BMS takes the battery offline and nothing happens. Granted, that's more of an advertisement, but something that's been asked here before.
 
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Thanks and great question and demo idea. Quick question, you say "Potential failure modes of common BMS's built in to some of the popular LiFePo batteries".....I do not know of any other LifePo battery in this market that has a BMS at all, let alone potential failure modes the BMS could have, can you enlighten me on the brand so we can research this?

Fly Lightly,
Kathy
 
First thing I'd like to see is a presentation that shows the different types of Lithium batteries, and which ones have shown tendencies toward thermal runaways, and which ones can't. Too many people say "Lithium batteries are dangerous!!" Without knowing that there are different types.

Talk about the chemistries, and why some are safer than others.
 
First thing I'd like to see is a presentation that shows the different types of Lithium batteries, and which ones have shown tendencies toward thermal runaways, and which ones can't. Too many people say "Lithium batteries are dangerous!!" Without knowing that there are different types.

Talk about the chemistries, and why some are safer than others.

Thanks Paul. For starter type batteries, Lithium Iron Phosphate is always used (LiFePo4) as the voltage of these cells are compatible with the charging system of the vehicle it is being used to start which is 13.3V-14.6V. They are also the most robust and stable of all the chemistries.

A common lithium battery is the type that uses lithium cobalt cells. They are very common in jump packs (not EarthX's but others), cell phones, hoover boards etc. and their voltage is 11.1V-11.8V and not used in this starter battery type of application because they are not compatible with the charging system of a vehicle. Many people lump them all in the same "boat"...."plane"....and we will make sure to touch on the differences. :eek:

Fly Lightly,
Kathy
 
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