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VOR future question

Charles in SC

Well Known Member
This has been hashed out before but times change and I could not find a recent thread. Over the 12 years (yes you read that right) I have been building my -7 avionics have changed quite a bit. A few years ago when building my panel I installed a KX 155 with localizer/glideslope, and marker beacon receiver. I had plans to use a hand held GPS. While I have been building I have not done much flying. The other day a friend who is a very active pilot mentioned that VORs were being decommissioned rather than being fixed when they break and localizer type approaches were being fazed out and replaced by GPS approaches. If all this is true how much longer do the folks here think a VOR receivers will be worth having. I am thinking about pulling out the KX 155 and replacing it with an IFR certified GPS. Thanks in advance!
 
NAV AIDS

I can remember back in the 90's when NDB's would go out. They started letting them fall to the wayside. I do believe that LOC & ILS approaches will be around for a long time yet. I also understand that many of the VOR's will remain in service for at least another decade or two.


If I were you I would keep the KX155 with a glideslope and purchase a IFR GPS to compliment your navigation system. Like all technology things change fast, maybe not as fast in aviation but I am sure if you have a Navigation radio and a GPS you'll be fine for many more years.


However, the best time to purchase any electronics for an aircraft is when its finished and ready to fly. Like I said, technology is changing so why purchase anything until you need to. Hold off on that GPS until the bird is ready to take flight.
 
If you are going to actually use the plane for IFR, a GPS is almost a necessity. Yeah, most bigger airports still have an ILS, but all the neighboring airports have likely lost their VOR approaches in lieu of GPS. So how do you file an alternate? Also, enroute is a real pain as you have to fly the victor airways. Yeah, this is how they did it in the glory days, but turns out the glory days weren't actually so glorious sometimes.

DEM
 
If you are going to actually use the plane for IFR, a GPS is almost a necessity. Yeah, most bigger airports still have an ILS, but all the neighboring airports have likely lost their VOR approaches in lieu of GPS. So how do you file an alternate? Also, enroute is a real pain as you have to fly the victor airways. Yeah, this is how they did it in the glory days, but turns out the glory days weren't actually so glorious sometimes.

DEM

While I agree with you on the GPS, I think having a VOR to give you options is a good idea. It makes no sense to me to willingly throw away VOR/LOC/GS capabilities, even if you don?t need use them very often. What?s so hard about flying airways? I file direct all the time but actually get at least a partial airway routing about 50% of the time and yes I usually use my GPS to fly it (flying in the mid-Atlantic and Southeast). True the routing is longer and there?s more workload using a Nav radio vs a GPS, but I wouldn?t say it?s harder to fly.

I?ve made a couple of IFR trips recently that had NOTAMd GPS outages along the route. Had I been GPS only I wouldn?t have launched, but having Nav radios allowed me to go without hesitation.
 
VOR/Localizer

I have a KX-155 with ILS in my RV-4. I have used it many times to save my bacon when I got caught on top. I also have a non certified GPS and IPad which I use as a backup "for VFR only." I do not want to pay the $$$ big bucks for a certified IFR GPS plus updates and subscriptions. With a certified KX-155 I can legally file IFR and use the non Certified GPS as a reference instrument only. The ILS system will be here for a long time because it offers lower minimums and very reliable. If I need an alternate, I simply do not file IFR. My 2 cents.
 
VOR/ILS

I just bought an RV-10 and had to make the same decision. I opted for the VOR/ILS in the form of a Garmin 650 (versus the 635 GPS only). In the past 10 years I seldom used the ground based navaids in my Tiger in over 800 hours of traveling but the additional cost was worth the insurance.

You could add a Garmin 430 to give you IFR GPS and a second comm and unless you need LPV minimums (~400? vs 200?), the non-WAAS units are 1/2 the cost. If dollars are tight, you could sell the 155 and replace it with a com only (or use a handheld for backup com 2) and net over $1000. If you wanted a larger display for the 430, the non-touch G3?s are a bargain.

YMMV
Mark Conner
RV-10
 
Us too.

As with the post's above, like #5&6. We have an 8 with a NAV-COM and also have a marker beacon receiver in our audio panel. All "T.S.O." to be proper for the case if needed. This is good back-up and if needed can be used to get us into a class "B" airport if anything goes bad and we need to do that. Those VOR's and ILS approaches will be here for a long time. It is better to fill out some paper work and count you blessings after you call May-day than to keep quite trying to get down in bad weather you did not expect at a smaller airport. Thats what the TAR can do and have done in the past and will be doing for a wile. I would not Take my GNC-255B out for anything, I would fine a way to put a WASS NAV receiver in as you can down the road. Just our two pennies.
Yours, R.E.A. III # 80888
 
While I agree with you on the GPS, I think having a VOR to give you options is a good idea. It makes no sense to me to willingly throw away VOR/LOC/GS capabilities, even if you don?t need use them very often. .

Todd,

For sure! I didn't mean to insinuate removing the KX155. Especially since he already owns it. Just may want to add a GPS.

DEM
 
Nobody has yet mentioned maintainability of the KX-155. My RV-9A had one when I bought it, but if I recall correctly, it was not easy to find replacement frequency displays. As for marker beacons, I don't know that I can name off hand an ILS that still has one.

I don't recall on the KX-155, but the King audio panel (KMA-24?) with the marker beacon had edge connectors, rather than DB connectors. That was another reason for getting rid of it.

Best advice? Put off buying avionics till the very, very last second.

Ed
 
You could add a Garmin 430 to give you IFR GPS and a second comm and unless you need LPV minimums (~400? vs 200?), the non-WAAS units are 1/2 the cost.

I think this is good advice. My RV has a 430W, upgraded to WAAS courtesy of the previous owner, and I really like it. LPV approaches are cool, and the autopilot can fly a hold, which is also neat.

But I flew behind a "classic" 430 for years in my Warrior, and to be honest it was all I actually needed for the kind of IFR flying I do.

Install costs in the certified world probably make IFR WAAS a closer question (in the "may as well" category), but for an experimental I think the non-WAAS 430 remains a very good cost/benefit equation.

Even with the recent easing of the certification requirements for certified aircraft avionics, experimentals continue to offer huge value in this respect. For example: for the additional cost of adding IFR WAAS to a classic 430 in an experimental, you could instead get well into the cost of a good handheld AND an autopilot that the handheld can drive. A classic 430, an autopilot, and a good handheld is a very capable IFR package.
 
Just a thought. A practice that has been going on for a long long time. I?ve dont it myself hundreds of times. It was THE practice when I flew 135 night freight.

File direct with a VFR GPS (not GPS direct). In the remarks, VFR GPS onboard. Have an ILS on board. Done. Honestly, ATC couldn?t care less if you are using a VFR GPS while enroute.

Honestly, you can actually file an IFR Flight plane legally with radar vectors.

I?m not kidding. My old freight company had VFR GPSs built into the panel. After I left, they had Garmin 496s built into the panels. Nobody has ever had a problem with it. POIs, ATC, FAA, Airports, Pilots.

Just don?t do something stupid and try to fly a GPS approach.

Tinker
 
Those VOR's and ILS approaches will be here for a long time.
Yours, R.E.A. III # 80888

I wouldn't count on the VOR approaches hanging around. It seems many larger airports with LOC-based approaches and full GPS approach coverage have dropped the VOR approaches. When I did my training a year and a half ago (shortly after the removal), we had to fly pretty far to get to smaller airports that still had a VOR approach. DPA here in Chicago has it's own VOR that is not on the decommission list and they still dropped all of the VOR approaches.

Larry
 
Let's not forget that the GPS signal is incredibly easy to spoof, degrade, deny, or disrupt. This is one of the reasons the FAA has not gone to GPS only. It would be far more difficult for an adversary to jam all the different VOR signals than it would be to jam only GPS.

The next time we're in a shooting war, I believe the first thing an advanced country will do is try to kill the GPS system in some way.

We should all start flying with sextants. You can't jam the stars;-)
 
I fly with a 430W in my 9A and love it, you get all the goodies in one box with a semi-reasonable price tag. The number of RNAV approaches that are available versus ILS or VOR approaches is staggering, and growing. Flying a coupled autopilot approach is nice.

Our 172 on the other hand, lost one of the KX-155's about a year ago and nobody would work on it - we ended up buying a used one on Ebay and rolled the dice on it functioning - luckily it worked out. Then a couple months ago the KMD550 quit talking to the KLN94, and nobody wants to work on those anymore either. If you're stuck with a dead box and looking at buying a new one, it's hard to make an argument for non-WAAS, in my opinion. We're about to pull the trigger on the Dynon Skyview STC for the 172.

As far as a GPS outage is concerned, yes I echo the earlier sentiments that in time of war with any realistic threat against the North American continent, the constellation would go dark in a heartbeat. With modern digital charting though, it would not be difficult (for most of us) to drop back and punt with digital sectionals and Mk I (or even II) eyeballs until the outage was over. If a shooting war ever comes to mainland USA, you're not going to be doing much VFR flying anyway, would be my guess.
 
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