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cheap ifr capability

jerpo1

Member
Hello Everyone,

I am currently doing a panel upgrade on my rv6 and have purchased an MGL 8.5" EFIS Lite with the new V10 radio head and autopilot. I have the echo UAT that will work with my current Bendix/King transponder to be 2020 compliant. I also purchased a remote nav radio from VAL avionics to work with my EFIS and have basic IFR capability. Has anyone used this setup and if so what did they like, didn't like, etc. Any thoughts, opinions, corrections would be appreciated. It's my understanding that this is all I need to be able to train for an IFR ticket as well as be legal according to FAA rules.
Thanks
 
Assuming your VAL is a VOR/ILS/LOC/marker beacon receiver/display. Just off the top of my head-

If you want to file IFR, you need a 24 Mo Pitot static cert and a transponder cert and the VOR sign off for tolerances. Your destinations and alternates must be compatible.

You'll need approaches that do not require any DME or NDBs. You may have to be very proficient in cross tuning radials and localizer courses.

For practice and the check ride you must have enough VOR, Loc and ILS approaches, all able to be flown without NDBs and DMEs to satisfy the standards.

It's very doable some areas, more challenging in others. Should be easy to get plenty of pointers.
 
Thank you for the response. Do you have any suggestions on what you would add, change, etc. to the panel to do training and light IFR flying?
 
The terms "cheap" and "IFR" generally are not used in the same sentence... :)

While doing VOR/ILS is a great training aid, I suspect you'll find the limitations outlined by Moosepileit may in fact prove to be very substantial limitations.

The advent of GPS approaches has been a real game changer in IFR flying. While I can't say there is such a thing as a "cheap" approach-certified GPS, I can say that, once you've used one of these modern wonders, you won't want to go back to flying VOR/ILS.

To put it another way, if you should happen to find yourself operating in IMC you likely would want to be able to avail yourself of all available guidance, rather than just the very small subset that Moosepileit described.
 
Long attempt at helping-

IF money is an object, you could get lots of utility from a basic, used IFR TSO 129 non-precision approach, non-WAAS GPS Navigator.

Reliability, updating, need for an annunciator switching set and other considerations stack up poorly against more modern production. It could last years or just hours, no warranty or repair ability. Your EFIS database, if any, is like an IPAD, good for awareness, but not IFR navigation filing. Without being able to shoot a GPS non precision approach, you may be very limited in training and checkride. You still need a VOR or ILS or localizer, ground based destination alternate filing approach navaid without a WAAS navigator, but a 129 non-precision approach box gets you DME and NDB substitution in the US.

Best $/hour overall may be to train and take the IFR check at the proper time in a certified plane with the most modern panel you can afford, but moreover, with a compatible CFII. Will you really shoot IFR in IMC in your RV? You surely can setup the RV to file IFR, climbout and get through some IMC weather with just a VOR. A single EFIS and single NAV radio is not leaving a lot of outs and redundancies, at any experience level.

Edit- your home airport lists only NDB and RNAV GPS Instrument Approach Procedures-
https://www.airnav.com/airport/KDMO
RNAV (GPS) RWY 18, RNAV (GPS) RWY 36
NDB RWY 18 and NDB RWY 36
KRCM has a VOR, but needs DME, so that's out.
KVER has a vanilla VOR, but it is a VOR-A meaning circling, only getting you to 1200' above the airport.
KMHL and KRAW only have RNAV and NDB.

A bunch of airports nearby, but only KSZL has an ILS /LOC. If they allow civil training to low missed approaches, you could do a checkride in the 30nm local area, I think, but not optimally at all. The SZL approaches need RAPCON or DME, if allowed to be there (takes a civil landing permit to touchdown, but some bases allow approach work). IF the standards allow, an ILS and localizer approach at SZL and the VOR-A at KVER could be a checkride completion.

On paper, assuming you do all the work/wiring, A TSO129 GPS unit, antenna, tray and annumciator/switch unit (you can build your own) can be "just" a few thousand $. Installing, certing- many, many hours and huge cost unless you do the labor. It may last for years, or may fail soon. Updating databases may be tedious and as pricey as a new LPV/WAAS navigator. You could install a DME or NDB, but that is not cheap or seen often.

For the VAL, some report not great reception range, take all best measures with the antennae/cabling/setup installation. Jesse Saint or Stein advice is proven, as is finding others results with the actual units you are considering or bought.

You would need both an instructor and examiner willing to fly in your plane. If radar vectors to the ILS and LOC at SZL are allowed on the checkride, then you fly the full VOR-A circle, ok, but in this day that is a compromised method of attack.

I'm sure there is a segment of current instrument pilots that fly near state of the art IFR, IMC at work or play, but not in their actual RVs for a myriad of reasons. Maybe as many as fly awesome IFR RV panels. Having your IFR ticket and some real experience flying IFR in good weather and finding your personal mins BEFORE doing so in your RV may be the true economical decision point.

One uncertified EFIS and Nav receiver is about as cheap as it comes to meet the mins of FILING IFR and touching IMC weather. It is also potentially very limiting. It may suit you fine for years, but I don't think a stranger can tell you if it will work out. A CFII that knows your flying, if you have a true pattern/style, would really help.

My RV-6 was built, not by me, as steam then single GRT EFIS, SL-30 nav/comm, similar to your plan, but with a 2 axis Trutrak. It may stay that way forever. I added a second PFD in a Gemini and spruced up the essential bus/endurance.

I'm a 20 year, full time IFR pilot though, military and civil and current ATP, I know my limits, and in a way invested many times the price of the RV in arriving to it. The plane CAN be “cheap”-ish, but the journey to it should be as savvy as possible to make it “economical” to your capes, needs or dreams.
 
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Hello Everyone,

It's my understanding that this is all I need to be able to train for an IFR ticket as well as be legal according to FAA rules.
Thanks

This is correct. However, being legal, and using common sense, are not always the same.
What will you do if the electrical system quits? The (one) EFIS? The (one) nav radio?
As a CFII, I'd be willing to fly with you, but in VFR only, if there are no attitude backups. (I carry portable GPS and VOR units for navigation emergencies).
It's very unfortunate that IFR is not cheap.

Whether or not this equipment is suitable for an FAA check ride is not clear. (The check ride requires MORE than the minimum equipment.) Some examiners will let you move the sole nav radio back and forth from the localizer to a VOR cross fix and back again; others take to heart the instructions to examiners that "...the applicant should continuously monitor the final approach course..." and won't let you do this, except in a simulated loss of nav. It's too bad you didn't opt for a used SL-30; this single nav radio will bring in the localizer and a VOR cross fix simultaneously. I'm not familiar with the MGL EFIS, but my GRT EFIS will display both the localizer and VOR cross fix simultaneously.

I would suggest you start your training, in VMC conditions. under the hood. That should give you a feel for what you want and what you need in the way of navigation boxes. And maybe some feel for what you need for emergencies.

If money is an absolute limitation: There are a lot of used ADF's sitting on shelves, selling for almost nothing. The trick is to get one with its antennas. NDB approaches are going the way of the dodo, but you've still got one. And if you can find an ILS that uses an NDB for the outer marker, then you're all set for nav equipment. Still need to address attitude back up.
 
I did all my training a couple years ago in a Cessna with dual VOR's and nothing else. No ADF, no DME, no GPS. It was ok, but as others have noted it was really limited. I was fortunate that our local airport has plethora of VOR based approaches (VOR-A, ILS, Localizer, and a backcourse) so I got some variety and could fly 3 different ones for the checkride. So, you can do this. Plus they allow up to 20 hours in the sim. Do that! At some point you have to fly the plane, but sim training is as effective or more for IFR. Plus there you can fly all your DME arcs, GPS approaches, etc...

I dunno if would try it with 1 VOR. My coworker did it back in the day, and he said it was rough. You can buy NARCO all in one VOR receiver/CDI's for a few hundred bucks. I have one, works fine. I'd install one temporarily at least.

That being said, actually flying IFR with this is not very practical. VOR's are dying, and as they die the FAA isn't always fixing them. More and more approaches are going over to GPS. Plus you have to fly the victor airways, not direct. This means that you end up being really limited because by the time you fly the airways, then add in an alternate that also has a VOR based approach, your range becomes really limited. If you actually want to use your rating you should probably plan on upgrading to WAAS gps at some point.

DEM
 
IF money is an object, you could get lots of utility from a basic, used IFR TSO 129 non-precision approach, non-WAAS GPS Navigator.

<snip>

My RV-6 was built, not by me, as steam then single GRT EFIS, SL-30 nav/comm, similar to your plan, but with a 2 axis Trutrak. It may stay that way forever. I added a second PFD in a Gemini and spruced up the essential bus/endurance.

I'm a 20 year, full time IFR pilot though, military and civil and current ATP, I know my limits, and in a way invested many times the price of the RV in arriving to it. The plane CAN be “cheap”-ish, but the journey to it should be as savvy as possible to make it “economical” to your capes, needs or dreams.

Freakishly close to exactly Mr. Moose's situation. On our very first IMC trip in the RV with that setup, we got into the exact worst case but workable scenario we envisioned: VFR in the home area but ceilings below MVA. No worries, shoot the ILS at the nearby airport, scoot home underneath. Except the ceilings dropped to 500 in the few miles in between. That single two hour sit, waiting for things to improve so we could fly the last few miles home, was enough to convince my CFO we should investigate the option in the first paragraph above. I installed a GPS-400, a very affordable option if you have an EFIS, currently one on eBay at the right price point.
 
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