What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

How to turn a VFR RV into an IFR RV?

All,

My apologies if this has been hashed out already; a few hours of googling and forum-browsing haven't yielded any useful info. I'm sure there will be lots of "I can't believe you didn't see <insert post here>" replies. Please, bring them on!

So: I'm well sold on RV's, and am looking to purchase a flying 7 or 8 to get me through the decade or so until I have time to build my own. My goal is to have a solid IFR platform to fly internationally (I'll be living overseas for a few years but would keep the plane N-registered).

I've seen some decent RVs with old avionics for sale in the $70-85k range. Can I buy a VFR-only aircraft, and then just throw a few tens of thousands of bucks into an IFR-certified GPS/nav radio (GTN-650, etc), the proper equipment to display the data (thinking G3X Touch, here), and then legally fly IFR? Or is there more to it?

The info EAA posted here (https://www.eaa.org/en/eaa/aviation...ions/equipping-a-homebuilt-for-ifr-operations) says the Operating Limitations for some homebuilts contains a statement to the effect of ?After completion of phase I flight testing, unless appropriately equipped for night and/or instrument flight in accordance with ? 91.205, this aircraft is to be operated under VFR, day only.? If that's *not* in the OL's for a particular aircraft, how would I get it modified?

Lastly: do the rules change if I go outside the US, assuming I keep it N-registered?

Thanks, all, in advance!
 
So you don’t need an EFIS or TSO’d GPS to be IFR. You touched on some of the basics.

1. Proper OPLIM wording.
2. Equipped IAW with 91.205
3. Current 91.411 and 91.413 inspections (although a transponder isn’t technically required for IFR flight, not having one would be very impractical)

So if you’ve got at least a Nav radio and a CDI and all the above you can go IFR. If you plan to fly in the system a lot, then an IFR GPS becomes more important eveyday as it adds significantly capability that is becoming more and more indispensable.

I also think a good autopilot should be given serious consideration as it can reduce pilot workload tremendously.

Can’t speak to international requirements.
 
Last edited:
No need to change the oplims. Note the 'unless' statement. Put at least the minimum required gear for IFR (plus what you need for your comfort zone) in the plane, log it, rewrite the weight/balance if needed, get the IFR transponder sign-off, and go fly.

edit: Probably worth mentioning; even if you do change the oplims for something else, it's a non-event with most FSDOs. Make an appointment telling them what you need & get their agreement, visit, and hand over your old ones. They'll hand you the new ones.
 
Last edited:
I just returned from flying 9 years in Honduas with an N registered airplane. The FAA requirements for maintenance schedule and ME did not change. Honduras counterpart to the FAA, the DGAC, were adamant that the airplane was maintained to FAA standards but flying in their system was a totally different ballgame. We owned a charter airline based on an island with a strictly VFR runway; no lights,instrument approach, ground radio to get any info, not even a windsock. Flew in and out under the Very low IFR conditions on a regular basis. Spoke with ATC on every flight. They knew the conditions.
 
SNIP

I've seen some decent RVs with old avionics for sale in the $70-85k range. Can I buy a VFR-only aircraft, and then just throw a few tens of thousands of bucks into an IFR-certified GPS/nav radio (GTN-650, etc), the proper equipment to display the data (thinking G3X Touch, here), and then legally fly IFR? Or is there more to it?
SNIP

The short answer - yes.

As it sounds you are looking for an all up round IFR plane to last you for a long period of time, I?ll share what I?m putting into the RV-8 project (note - I?m biased toward SkyView as I?ve been flying it IFR for several years).
- (1) 10? HDX display
- (1) 7? HDX display
- Avidyne IFD440 TSO certified GPS Precious Approach and VOR/ILS
- SkyView Autopilot
- SkyView comm radio (Comm #2)
- SkyView XPDR (ADS-B out as well as TIS on the SkyView display
- Primary and backup ADHARS modules
- PS Engineering audio panel
- Other associated SkyView modules (ARINC box, Knob Panel, Autopilot Panel)

The display power is split between two PC-625 batteries, so no backup batteries.

Total cost for you will be about $30K assuming there is nothing to be reused from the current panel (e.g. a comm radio for #2 and/or audio panel).

Side note - I advise other builders that a two axis autopilot is required for IFR work in an RV. I know it is not legally required, but it only makes sense.

Carl
 
So you don?t need an EFIS or TSO?d GPS to be IFR. You touched on some of the basics.

1. Proper OPLIM wording.
2. Equipped IAW with 91.205
3. Current 91.411 and 91.413 inspections (although a transponder isn?t technically required for IFR flight, not having one would be very impractical)

So if you?ve got at least a Nav radio and a CDI and all the above you can go IFR. If you plan to fly in the system a lot, then an IFR GPS becomes more important eveyday as it adds significantly capability that is becoming more and more indispensable.

I also think a good autopilot should be given serious consideration as it can reduce pilot workload tremendously.

Can?t speak to international requirements.

Todd,

Thanks much! My plan is (minimum) G3X Touch with GTN-650 and autopilot panel. If money and space allow, I'd add more, but I'm looking at speccing out "minimal", "would be good to have", and "won the lottery" options.
 
No need to change the oplims. Note the 'unless' statement. Put at least the minimum required gear for IFR (plus what you need for your comfort zone) in the plane, log it, rewrite the weight/balance if needed, get the IFR transponder sign-off, and go fly.

edit: Probably worth mentioning; even if you do change the oplims for something else, it's a non-event with most FSDOs. Make an appointment telling them what you need & get their agreement, visit, and hand over your old ones. They'll hand you the new ones.

Charlie,

Should I assume all oplims are written that way? I've never actually seen one before, and the EAA site seemed to imply that some are phrased differently.

Since I obviously wouldn't be the builder, would I (the owner, but not a repairman or A&P) be able to change the oplims via FSDO?

Thanks!
 
I just returned from flying 9 years in Honduas with an N registered airplane. The FAA requirements for maintenance schedule and ME did not change. Honduras counterpart to the FAA, the DGAC, were adamant that the airplane was maintained to FAA standards but flying in their system was a totally different ballgame. We owned a charter airline based on an island with a strictly VFR runway; no lights,instrument approach, ground radio to get any info, not even a windsock. Flew in and out under the Very low IFR conditions on a regular basis. Spoke with ATC on every flight. They knew the conditions.

AL,

Flying in Thailand is much the same - "Clouds? What clouds? We're VFR, therefore the law prevents any clouds from appearing out here."

Was your plane in Honduras an experimental? I'm curious as to whether foreign authorities look at an experimental as "equal" to a certified aircraft. I expect to do a significant amount of flying in South America. How necessary is Spanish?
 
Todd,

Thanks much! My plan is (minimum) G3X Touch with GTN-650 and autopilot panel. If money and space allow, I'd add more, but I'm looking at speccing out "minimal", "would be good to have", and "won the lottery" options.

For a data point, I have a 2-screen non-touch G3X, GTN 650, SL30, TruTrak Gemini backup PFD, and a TruTrak GX Pilot 2-axis autopilot. I fly IFR all the time—shot a coupled LPV to minimums (saw the runway and was able to land just as I was starting to go missed) last weekend in heavy rain, as a matter of fact,

My personal philosophy is never cheap out when equipping for IFR. However that doesn’t mean you have to get the highest end widgets either. The system you describe, with an adequate backup and a good autopilot will give you everything you need.

One last thing. I’m not a fan of the built-in EFIS autopilots. They function fine but I prefer a stand alone system that can still function should the EFIS fail.
 
Last edited:
The short answer - yes.

As it sounds you are looking for an all up round IFR plane to last you for a long period of time, I?ll share what I?m putting into the RV-8 project (note - I?m biased toward SkyView as I?ve been flying it IFR for several years).
- (1) 10? HDX display
- (1) 7? HDX display
- Avidyne IFD440 TSO certified GPS Precious Approach and VOR/ILS
- SkyView Autopilot
- SkyView comm radio (Comm #2)
- SkyView XPDR (ADS-B out as well as TIS on the SkyView display
- Primary and backup ADHARS modules
- PS Engineering audio panel
- Other associated SkyView modules (ARINC box, Knob Panel, Autopilot Panel)

The display power is split between two PC-625 batteries, so no backup batteries.

Total cost for you will be about $30K assuming there is nothing to be reused from the current panel (e.g. a comm radio for #2 and/or audio panel).

Side note - I advise other builders that a two axis autopilot is required for IFR work in an RV. I know it is not legally required, but it only makes sense.

Carl

Carl,

Thanks for the info! I'm a Garmin guy, myself, having flown a few hundred hours with G1000 and G500, and I'm simply amazed by the G3X Touch videos I've been watching lately. No issues with Dynon, just I don't have much experience with their systems. (A good bit of time in an Avidyne SR20 didn't impress me much).

I'm absolutely sold on the autopilot. With the very long trips I'm anticipating, and the likelihood of a decent workload in IMC, I agree it's pretty much required equipment.

Looking at a G3X-T PFD and MFD, a GTN-650 to drive IFR nav, and the autopilot panel. I like the idea of hiding the transponder behind the panel, but I'm considering adding a second nav/com with a button panel for backup. Of course, then there's the questions of an audio panel, AOA indicator, ADS-B in, G5 backup instrument, electric dog polisher charging station, gasoline-powered turtleneck sweater adapter kit, etc etc etc. Hoping to keep the gear and install under about $30k, so we'll just have to see...
 
All

So: I'm well sold on RV's, and am looking to purchase a flying 7 or 8 to get me through the decade or so until I have time to build my own. My goal is to have a solid IFR platform to fly internationally

It’s been a while since I’ve flown international so take this advice with caution. However, there are two considerations whether you fly VFR or IFR internationally you should consider, and that is your transponder and radio. I believe (not 100% sure) most European countries require aircraft to have a transponder that receives and transmits @ 1090 MHz and don’t support the 978 UAT MHz format. I also believe they require the aircraft radio to be able to use the tighter 12.5 freq separation band width. Most modern digital radios support this tighter freq range but not all. Keep these two issues in mind when shopping for your airplane otherwise some upgrades will need to be immediate.
 
For a data point, I have a 2-screen non-touch G3X, GTN 650, SL30, TruTrak Gemini backup PFD, and a TruTrak GPilot 2-axis autopilot. I fly IFR all the time?shot a coupled LPV to minimums (saw the runway and was able to land just as I was starting to go missed) last weekend in heavy rain, as a matter of fact,

My personal philosophy is never cheap out when equipping for IFR. However that doesn?t mean you have to get the highest end widgets either. The system you describe, with an adequate backup and a good autopilot will give you everything you need.

One last thing. I?m not a fan of the built-in EFIS autopilots. They function fine but I prefer a stand alone system that can still function should the EFIS fail.

Todd,

Sounds like exactly what I'm looking for. I'd originally planned on the G3X, but ****, are those Touch panels nice! I'll be checking them out at Oshkosh this year and trying to convince myself I don't need them!

I'm actually not a huge fan of touchscreens in an aircraft - I like being able to operate a G-430 without having to look at it except to confirm my entries - but they're just so incredibly capable it's hard to say no.

As for backup, I'd aim for a second G3X screen as an MFD and backup PFD, a second nav/com on the panel, and likely a G5 with its own battery backup for emergency use. Anything else you suggest for redundancy?

My understanding of the G3X is that it's got a built-in autopilot, and that adding the Garmin AP panel (GMC305/307) just gives a manual input to the EFIS. You're suggesting an AP that's completely external to the G3X "brain"?
 
As for backup, I'd aim for a second G3X screen as an MFD and backup PFD, a second nav/com on the panel, and likely a G5 with its own battery backup for emergency use. Anything else you suggest for redundancy?

My understanding of the G3X is that it's got a built-in autopilot, and that adding the Garmin AP panel (GMC305/307) just gives a manual input to the EFIS. You're suggesting an AP that's completely external to the G3X "brain"?

For redundancy, as far as instruments, no, but you need to look at the electrical architecture since you are contemplating an all electric panel.

Yes, I advocate a standalone autopilot (note you can still add a GMC 305/307), but that's my personal choice in an attempt to avoid putting too many eggs in one basket in the event of a system failure. Should the EFIS go dark, I really like having a standalone means to help keep the wings level as I try to figure out what the heck is going. Trying to hand fly, navigate, and communicate while dealing with a major system failure is when I want as much help as I can get. Just my 2 cents.
 
AL,

Flying in Thailand is much the same - "Clouds? What clouds? We're VFR, therefore the law prevents any clouds from appearing out here."

Was your plane in Honduras an experimental? I'm curious as to whether foreign authorities look at an experimental as "equal" to a certified aircraft. I expect to do a significant amount of flying in South America. How necessary is Spanish?
No, I was flying a BN2 Islander. Don't need Spanish for ATC but flight plan offices and cashiers where you will pay landing fees will be easier if you speak at least some basic Spanish.
 
Yes, I advocate a standalone autopilot (note you can still add a GMC 305/307), but that's my personal choice in an attempt to avoid putting too many eggs in one basket in the event of a system failure. Should the EFIS go dark, I really like having a standalone means to help keep the wings level as I try to figure out what the heck is going. Trying to hand fly, navigate, and communicate while dealing with a major system failure is when I want as much help as I can get. Just my 2 cents.

Just my 2c but adding the Garmin servos to a G3X system is a no brainer, the integration and operation with the Garmin AP panel 307/507 is superior to anything else out there.
 
Just my 2c but adding the Garmin servos to a G3X system is a no brainer, the integration and operation with the Garmin AP panel 307/507 is superior to anything else out there.

Like I said, it?s my personal preference? for safety I prefer a more failure tolerant setup. The only thing that my TruTrak doesn?t do that I wish it did is IAS? it only does VS. I got my IR behind a G1000 with a GFC 700 with FLC. So in climbs I?d set an airspeed instead of a vertical speed to guard against the AP flying me into a stall trying to maintain a VS if I got distracted or simply wasn?t paying attention.
 
Was your plane in Honduras an experimental? I'm curious as to whether foreign authorities look at an experimental as "equal" to a certified aircraft. I expect to do a significant amount of flying in South America. How necessary is Spanish?
Non issue in Central America. I was based in El Salvador and flew an experimental airplane (KIS4 - N819PR) in to all Central America countries with absolutely no issue. The KIS4 airplane kit was being built in El Salvador at the time so experimental airplanes were being registered and flown in all the countries there. You can read more at our web page: www.puertoricoflyer.com

Anecdote: I was flying my KIS4 IFR from El Salvador to Key West. The controllers in El Salvador, Honduras, Guatemala, Mexico and Cuba spoke perfect English. But I had a very hard time understanding the controllers in Belize (an English speaking country) and had to do the "say again" drill many times. Who would have "thunk" it.

:D

PS: I did the "Steam" to "Glass IFR" conversion back in 2012. Best thing I could have ever done.
 
Last edited:
It?s been a while since I?ve flown international so take this advice with caution. However, there are two considerations whether you fly VFR or IFR internationally you should consider, and that is your transponder and radio. I believe (not 100% sure) most European countries require aircraft to have a transponder that receives and transmits @ 1090 MHz and don?t support the 978 UAT MHz format. I also believe they require the aircraft radio to be able to use the tighter 12.5 freq separation band width. Most modern digital radios support this tighter freq range but not all. Keep these two issues in mind when shopping for your airplane otherwise some upgrades will need to be immediate.

Thanks, Jim! I think all the radios I'm considering will work on 12.5, but I hadn't checked out the transponder frequencies yet... I'll take a look!
 
For redundancy, as far as instruments, no, but you need to look at the electrical architecture since you are contemplating an all electric panel.

Yes, I advocate a standalone autopilot (note you can still add a GMC 305/307), but that's my personal choice in an attempt to avoid putting too many eggs in one basket in the event of a system failure. Should the EFIS go dark, I really like having a standalone means to help keep the wings level as I try to figure out what the heck is going. Trying to hand fly, navigate, and communicate while dealing with a major system failure is when I want as much help as I can get. Just my 2 cents.

Todd,

I'd considered the electrical system, since obviously it'll be the foundation of everything else, but I've got no idea what to look for. Anything you recommend as criteria for judging a system? And how hard is it to replace that during the avionics upgrade? I'm a fairly ok pilot, but what I don't know about building/maintaining could fill several libraries.

From Garmin's webpage (https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/514383), it looks like the G5 has its own ADAHRS, and couples with the AP panel to work as a standalone. "G5 may be installed with a GMC 305 or GMC 307 autopilot control panel and up to 3 GSA 28 smart servos to perform as a standalone flight instrument with integrated autopilot functions." Pardon my ignorance - it looks like that would provide a redundant backup if the G3X fails. Am I missing something?

Thanks!
 
Just my 2c but adding the Garmin servos to a G3X system is a no brainer, the integration and operation with the Garmin AP panel 307/507 is superior to anything else out there.

Walt,

Assuming there are no AP servos, or a different type, is that generally a labor-intensive replacement?
 
Like I said, it?s my personal preference? for safety I prefer a more failure tolerant setup. The only thing that my TruTrak doesn?t do that I wish it did is IAS? it only does VS. I got my IR behind a G1000 with a GFC 700 with FLC. So in climbs I?d set an airspeed instead of a vertical speed to guard against the AP flying me into a stall trying to maintain a VS if I got distracted or simply wasn?t paying attention.

I learned that lesson the hard way a few years back... Headed on a 3-hr cross-country with my wife in an SR20, I figured I'd let the AP do the work. The S-TEC 55X had a VS climb mode, so I set my target altitude (12k, I think) and VS +500 and kicked back to relax. 4k, 5k, 6k, no big deal... Suddenly, an oddly familiar buzzing sound started up - who knew that 500 FPM was hard to maintain in thin air?! Lesson learned, anyhow. Once I moved into more capable planes, I became a huge fan of FLC/IAS modes!
 
Non issue in Central America. I was based in El Salvador and flew an experimental airplane (KIS4 - N819PR) in to all Central America countries with absolutely no issue. The KIS4 airplane kit was being built in El Salvador at the time so experimental airplanes were being registered and flown in all the countries there. You can read more at our web page: www.puertoricoflyer.com

Anecdote: I was flying my KIS4 IFR from El Salvador to Key West. The controllers in El Salvador, Honduras, Guatemala, Mexico and Cuba spoke perfect English. But I had a very hard time understanding the controllers in Belize (an English speaking country) and had to do the "say again" drill many times. Who would have "thunk" it.

:D

PS: I did the "Steam" to "Glass IFR" conversion back in 2012. Best thing I could have ever done.

Galin,

Thanks for sharing - I'm glad to know it won't be too difficult to get around. I definitely don't want to discover I'm suddenly not allowed to depart because my plane "isn't legal" or something like that! Any favorite places to visit, or places to avoid?

Also good to hear that decent English is common. It's very different in Asia - English-only won't get you far at all. Granted, I'm still going to continue studying Spanish, but at least it won't be a hard requirement for flying. (Love the name "Blanquita," btw - even my gringo Spanish got that one!)
 
Any favorite places to visit, or places to avoid?
I would definitely do a flight to Roatan (MHRO) in Honduras. It is an easy flight, the airport is great, fees are very reasonable and the beaches/diving is amazing. There is no Avgas there but the flight is short enough that with proper planning you won't need to refuel.

Also do a flight to San Salvador (MSSS) airport for lunch on a Saturday. The Aero Club is very active and has an excellent restaurant on the airport. You can park your airplane right in front of the Aero Club restaurant. Avgas is reasonably priced there, at least compared to other places.

(Love the name "Blanquita," btw - even my gringo Spanish got that one!)
Since my airplane is white, my wife started calling the airplane "Blanquita" and the name just stuck. Now "Blanquita" is an important member of our family. My daughter even made nose art for "Blanquita" using elements of my two daughters and my two granddaughters.

7f92.jpg


:cool:
 
Last edited:
Walt,

Assuming there are no AP servos, or a different type, is that generally a labor-intensive replacement?

The mechanical swap of servos from a different manuf. is pretty straight forward, I think any of the pitch servo mounts can be adapted relatively easily to fit the Garmin units. Installing the pitch mount from scratch is a bit of work in the cramped quarters. Wiring will likely need be changed to support the Garmin data buss lines.
 
Todd,

I'd considered the electrical system, since obviously it'll be the foundation of everything else, but I've got no idea what to look for. Anything you recommend as criteria for judging a system? And how hard is it to replace that during the avionics upgrade? I'm a fairly ok pilot, but what I don't know about building/maintaining could fill several libraries.

From Garmin's webpage (https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/514383), it looks like the G5 has its own ADAHRS, and couples with the AP panel to work as a standalone. "G5 may be installed with a GMC 305 or GMC 307 autopilot control panel and up to 3 GSA 28 smart servos to perform as a standalone flight instrument with integrated autopilot functions." Pardon my ignorance - it looks like that would provide a redundant backup if the G3X fails. Am I missing something?

Thanks!

If the G5 can be wired to drive the servos in he event of a G3X failure then yes I think that works.

As far as the electrical system, there are no hard and fast rules. My philosophy is to have enough electrically power to get safely on the ground with time to spare. To accomplish this I have a 28aH battery tied to an emergency bus and 2 alternators. Some go with one alternator and multiple batteries and many also install a small backup battery to drive the EFIS regardless of the main electrical architecture. The Aeroelectric Connection is a good reference.
 
Last edited:
Yes, I advocate a standalone autopilot (note you can still add a GMC 305/307), but that's my personal choice in an attempt to avoid putting too many eggs in one basket in the event of a system failure. Should the EFIS go dark, I really like having a standalone means to help keep the wings level as I try to figure out what the heck is going.

I understand it is your personal choice, and a perfectly valid one, but I think this advice is mainly relevant to much older style installations.

You say, 'should the EFIS go dark' but if you have dual screens in the Garmin, the second screen will auto revert and will support the autopilot.

You can also think of the G5 as a standalone autopilot when included with the GMC 507. If you have just a PFD G3x touch screen, the G5 will take over autopilot duties if the PFD fails. The G5 has it's own ADAHRS so it is fully redundant and independent.

There is the added benefit of always having two ways to drive the autopilot unlike in the case of a standalone autopilot failure.
 
Back
Top