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Fuel tank leak checking thoughts

stevemcgirr

Well Known Member
Allow me a short preamble before I make a few observations on checking for leaks in your tanks. Both of my tanks had passed the Van?s ?balloon test? with seemingly no leakage of air, long ago when the wings were being built in my garage. There were no apparent leaks when I filled five gallons per side to do the fuel flow tests, nor even during the slow speed taxi tests. So it was frustrating about a month and a half ago, when I first completely filled the tanks to do the capacitance sender/EFIS calibrations, to find that my right tank had developed a leak.

I first noted a trail of blue coming from the outboard side. I determined that the tank would have to be pulled off the wing to properly repair, and found the leak, due to the trail of blue, coinciding with an area of soap bubbling on a seam on the outboard side. I repaired the tank by cutting an access panel and applying tank sealant in the usual way. After sealing the access panel on, and allowing a week for cure, I did another air challenge test to 14 inches of water on a manometer I built (which I had used to check calibration of pitot and static lines). Overnight (24 hours later) there was a column 12 inches in height. Since I could find no soap bubbles, I figured that I was probably seeing ?acceptable? leakage from the hoses I was using for testing and re-installed the tank. I re-filled to full. No leak, seemingly, overnight in the cold hangar. Next day though, when I brought the plane out in to the gradually warming sun, a new leak became apparent and intensified, though the origin was hard to determine. Off with the tank AGAIN. (in 53 minutes, though this wasn?t a skill I had hoped to perfect). This time there was no obvious trail of blue. When I pressurized again to a 12 inch column of air, I could see no movement in the manometer. I could find any soap bubbling, either. So, since my wife was still at work, I took the tank home for the ?hot tub test?. Submerging about a quarter of the tank at a time and pressurizing with as much wind as I could blow, I found an intermittent leak at the corner seam at the wing root, above the access panel for the fuel pickup. Moving the overhang of aluminum here caused the leak to be more obvious. The second area of leakage has now been sealed, and is curing.

Now to the observations and the musings. I had been of the understanding that to do an adequate ?leak test? that you sealed off all but one outlet on the tank, blew the tank up with air sufficient to blow up a balloon, and waited overnight to see if the balloon was still inflated. If it was, you could feel confident that you would have no leaks. I was curious though as to how much of a challenge this actually was. What pressure does a balloon exert, after all? What pressure SHOULD we be checking for? How much is TOO much?

It turns out that the balloons I have access to, which inflate to approximately a foot in diameter, require about 20 inches of water pressure to start inflating or about .72 psi (I measured). Once inflated, and this varies depending on the age of the balloon and how many times it has been inflated, the balloon exerts about 5 inches of water, or about .18 psi at steady state. This would not have been enough to sense my leak. The average male can produce a peak of 39-40 inches of water pressure, or about 1.45 psi (citation: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1501025 ). So while you can inflate most balloons, you can?t hurt your fuel tank. I read somewhere that it was recommended to inflate tanks during the leak check to ?about 3 psi?. If this is the case, you can?t do it with a balloon. To put this in another perspective, if your vent line were blocked, and you went from sea level to 20,000 feet, ignoring temperature changes for a minute to make the math easier, the pressure change would be 20 inches of mercury (standard lapse rate: one inch per thousand feet) corresponding to a tank pressure change of 9.8 psi, so I guess that would be a worst case scenario for tank pressurization.

The take home messages for me are that I will check my tank with a manometer, rather than with a balloon. I will pressurize to about 3 psi (which is a column of water 8 feet high!). I will probably leave things overnight (though the manometer is very sensitive, and you can see movement in the meniscus quickly if there is a leak). And I have made very sure that the fuel vent lines are open and unobstructed. With a functioning vent line, the most pressure a tank should see is if a column of fuel gets pushed up into the vertical section of the vent up to the longeron, a height of less than 18 inches, so less than .7 psi. Overkill perhaps, but I REALLY don?t want to have to take the tank off a third time.
 
Too much

I think you will damage your tanks with 96 " of water.

I use 32" which is about 1psi. even then I see the tank bulge.

Carr
 
I appreciate the feedback. One psi (about 32" of water, as you say) is probably enough. I was able to demonstrate my leak at 20 inches of water, but not at 12. My point is that a balloon wouldn't have gotten me to even .5 psi, which I thought was a surprising result.
 
I used almost a quart of proseal per 30 gal tank. I top coated and overlapped all joints with PR-1005-L Buna-N sealant. I let tanks cure for several days. I pressure tested to 1 psi with a digital manometer that read to 1/1000ths place. I let it sit overnight. No leaks, no paint blisters and no blue staining. My tanks bulged as much as I would want to see on them. I would not recommend 3 psi.

I tested several balloons and did not trust .25-.5 psi that they exerted. I could put my hand near the tank surface and watch the manometer pressure reading increase.
 
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I think you guys are misunderstanding the "balloon test". The balloon test is not to pressurize and locate a leak. It is to check to see if there is a leak, by a "leak down" of the balloon itself.
 
Mel, thanks for your response. The point of my post is that a balloon produces a surprisingly small amount of pressure. In my case the balloon did not show a leak, yet I had one. In my case, and I stress it is an experience of one, in order to demonstrate the presence of a leak (and believe me, the fuel on the ground is compelling evidence of the presence of a leak) was only demonstrated when I had a pressure in the tank of greater than .36 psi when the tank was off the plane. In the plane, I surmise there was enough deflection of the wing root flange that there was less driving pressure needed to open the channel and let the fuel leak. If someone is depending on a balloon, producing less than .3 psi to show a leak, they MAY not have enough driving force (in most cases it will be plenty). If there is no increase in pressure in the tank over atmospheric, there is nothing to hold the balloon inflated.
 
The balloon is not meant to be an indicator of whether there is a leak. A moderate reduction in temp is enough to make a balloon go from inflated to limp.

The balloon is only a tool to help attain a usable test pressure while preventing people from accidentally blowing up their tanks. Once an internal pressure is developed, you have to use a lot of soap solution to determine if there really is a leak (and even then, very small ones can be missed).
 
Many tanks built in the 80's and 90's never leaked. Why all the hopla know with meters , water and such. Build the tanks to specs and if you are not capable have them built for you.
It's not that hard. Yes I have built many.
Mike

Mike,

Many did leak, which was why there was an unofficial RV-4 and RV-6 modification to put four small angle pieces riveted to the inside of the end ribs in each of the rear baffle corners.

The exact #2 leak location mentioned by the OP....
 
I use several methods to find gas leaks in refrigerant circuits. Soap bubble solution, electronic sensors and ultraviolet dye. I have used all three methods at times and finally found the leaks by using a higher pressure(300 vs 120 psi) or heating the part to 125-150F. Sometimes both heat and more pressure. It takes less time, money and aggravation for us to do it right the first time. If small leaks were being caught by the "balloon method", we would not see so many repairs/paint blisters being posted on here. I bet there are 10X more leaks than we read about. Another reason to hold off on painting for at least 50 hrs.

Here is my manometer, used in my field of work...

http://www.amazon.com/UEi-Instruments-EM151-Electronic-Manometer/dp/B000OUV2D0

Here is my combustible gas leak detector...

http://www.amazon.com/UEi-Instruments-CD100A-Combustible-Detector/dp/B000HHTY7Q/ref=pd_cp_hi_0

Both for $212. Many like me spend that on a lunch fly out with the family. Yes, I did find one leak at the fuel transducer flare fitting. One drop of fuel noted every 5 min with boost pump on. I could barely smell fuel but could not have pinpointed it without this. Tightening the fitting a little fixed it. I used 5052 aluminum tubing in place of supplied 3003.
 
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Sorry to hear about the leaks, Steve.

I used a home-made water manometer for testing my tanks and pressurized each tank separately to about 1 PSI. I did the first inflation in the morning, outside of the shop actually. Went back in the house for some brunch or something, and when I came back out an hour or so later the water delta in the manometer had increased by a good 8 inches! I'm not sure what's better, a leak, or a reverse leak. :). (I guess a reverse leak, but only to a point!)

It's amazing how much of an effect even a slight temperature change has. I released air as the pressure continued to rise throughout the day. In the evening, as the temp dropped, the pressure in the tank dropped as well. I called it good after also spraying everything with soapy water at a good 1 PSI and seeing no bubbling.

If I do it again (and I might -- it's easy enough, and a lot of time will have passed between building the tanks and putting fuel in them for the first time) I might do both tanks at once, with separate manometers, and look for changes in the manometers relative to each other. What are the odds that both tanks would leak at identical rates?

The RV-7 builder's manual says that pressure in the tanks filled with fuel is "less than 1 PSI." I heard creaks and other scary noises while pressurizing mine. I don't think I'd have the guts to try 3 PSI.
 
Those pieces are on my plans. Say Hi to the wife.Mike

Mike,

Will do a Hi to Doris. Come see us before it gets too hot for the Southern Californians...:)

Those angles are not on my RV-6 plans sheet 18 with revisions up to R10.

I wonder when they got added...
 
Agreed

Hi Shannon,
The first responder, Carr, did correct my misunderstanding about the pressure. To clarify, it appears that 1 psi is PLENTY, and should not be exceeded. I thought I would repeat that here in case anyone reads my first post and thinks I am still going to pressure test above that. I'm not.

A reason you may have seen an increase in pressure as your tank heated is that if there is fuel in the vent line, as may happen if you fill "to the brim", the fuel will need to be pushed up the vertical segment of the vent line before being expelled, and this can result in a pressure column about 18 inches high (but still less than 1 psi)
 
Testing tanks

Hi guys,

I am testing my left tank now. I am starting with the balloon method to see where things are right now. From what I read the balloon is more of a "safety" feature in that a balloon would POP before you could over inflate a tank. I popped a balloon testing this out. It is amazing because the balloon barely inflates and then all of a sudden it goes from zero to 60 in like 1 second and POP!

I found the weak point in my test to be the seal at the base of the balloon itself. No matter what I tried there was air leaking out. So, I took some tubing and put it over the vent tube and then put a balloon on the end of the tube. Actually I got a bit whimsical and put a rubber glove to wave at me.

Then I filled tank with air and let it sit. The glove stayed full for some time but after a while it started to deflate. But what balloon have you ever blown up that does not lose air?

I filled the glove up again and this time I sprayed soapy water on seams. I did not see any bubbling on any of the seams I sprayed. Can anyone recommend though the best practice for doing this? I mean, I just "wung it" on a soap to water ratio. Is there a specific product I should be using?

It seems like no matter what and no matter how many times you test you need to bite the bullet, fill the tank with fuel and see what happens.

I also used a full quart on one tank. I gooped all of the seams, the shop side of all rivets and feel like I probably over did it in on the end ribs. I also drew a bead of goop along along all inner seams for ribs...basically anywhere I could access. I feel like the weak spot are the rivets themselves.

I hope I got this right. Building the tanks is not my favorite part of this project so far. It seems to me there has to be a better way.

Steve
 
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Hi Steve,

I just finished leak testing my RV8 fuel tanks. You must be careful how much you pressurize the tank, even using the balloon method. See this thread

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=171587

For the soapy water, I mixed in a lot of Dawn liquid soap to ensure plenty of bubbling if there is a leak. You can verify the soap concentration at the base of the balloon as there will be small leaks there.
 
RV tanks are multi-part, riveted structures bolted into a larger structure which bends and twists in service. There is no practical shop test which can duplicate the service loads.

The shop test just finds the obvious leaks. Don't obsess over it.
 
Thank you Dan

This makes me feel better. I fuel tested my tanks FULL of AV gas for a whole winter. After 100 hrs of flying, and a couple winter/summer temp cycles, I started to get some rivet weepers. I didn?t build the tanks but I do need to suck some Loctite in this summer.
 
Fuel Level Sender Confusion

Hi Guys,

Now for my new dilema...

Before I sealed up the tanks I tested the fuel sender probably 20 times to a test gauge I have. When I moved the float to the top of the tank the fuel level would go up to full when the float was at the bottom of the tank the level would show (close to) empty.

Due to the way the float wire is bent and how the sender installs it is virtually impossible to install it upside down.

Now, with my tanks sealed up (and air/soapy bubble tested) I filled tank with fuel to test (which does not seem to be leaking YAY!) but much to my chagrin, surprise, frustration and disbelief, the fuel gauge seems to run backwards now. When the tank is empty the gauge shows full and as I add fuel the needle moves from FULL to Empty. The sender wire is connected to the sender post on gauge, ground to ground and power to power.

I don't understand what could have happened here. Does anyone have any ideas what I could possibly have done?

I am planning on using digital fuel gauge which is programmed based on fuel level in tank so I think I will get past this with the "real" gauge I plan on using (I will also be installing fuel flow) but this is really driving me nuts. I don't know what happened.
 
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