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Flying with AOA - it's about Maximum Performance

Ironflight

VAF Moderator / Line Boy
Mentor
I must admit that, as an Aeronautical Engineer by training, I have always wanted to have an Angle of Attack indicator in my airplane because, well, we all know that is how wings stall, and geeks like instrumentation. However, I also leaned to fly many decades ago in J-3 Cubs (and the like), and have spent many, many more flight hours without an AOA than with one. In fact, most of my AOA flying is in simulators at hypersonic velocities - very important there, but bearing no resemblance to using it at low speeds. I know many Naval Aviators who have never flown without an AOA, and learning to use one from scratch probably gives on a unique perspective on the device. But picking it up ?later in life? is interesting, because, well, I tend to feel the wing first, and then look at the AOA later. (To be fair, I don?t generally have to look at my ASI in a light plane that I am used to on final either - you get to know what it feel like - unless my loading is way different from normal).

But flying with the new AOA software on my GRT EFIS for the past couple of months has given me some interesting insights into how it can be useful - even for those of us that ?don?t need it?. The bottom line is that if you operate away from the edges of the low-speed envelope, it is not going to dramatically change your scan or habit patterns. But if the goal is to get the maximum performance out of your bird at the low end , then yes, AOA can really help!

The best example that I can give is that at my normal approach speeds in the -8, I can land and stop in about 1,000? - 1,200? of runway. Because I almost always have 3,000? or so available, I rarely worry about doing a short field landing (and I get at least two years on a set of brake pads), and concentrate on being safely over the threshold, and working on a nice touchdown. This is easily accomplished with an approach speed of about 70 knots, and the C/S Prop brakes you pretty quickly when it?s time to dump speed. At my normal approach speed, the GRT AOA indication doesn?t even appear on the screen until I am down below 70 knots (calibrated to a 1.3Vso approach speed), popping on with a pitch up indication as I come over the fence. You can say that I am carrying plenty of margin over the fence - or that I am flying way faster than I need to. Either way, the AOA works fine - I am just choosing to have a little better ?penetration? speed down final.

Now, if I go out for some short field landing practice, the AOA is fantastic! Pitch up until I get the green dot, and the plane just seems to hover it?s way down final - in fact, there almost isn?t enough energy to flare - a little bump of the throttle makes the touchdown much softer. And, of course, it re-emphasizes just how short an RV can land - I spend more of my time enjoying the high speed aspects of the design than the low speed. Playing around with slow flight at altitude, the AOA is a great tool for seeing when you are getting the most out of the wing - but it just reinforces what my seat-of-the-pants already knows.

So I guess I will never be accused of being an ?AOA Cripple?, unable to fly comfortably without one, but that is just because I have flown without one too much in my life. But, for precise speed control on an approach where it makes a difference, the AOA is a very handy tool to have. I guess that sort of sums up many of the features I have built in to my aircraft - Synthetic Approaches, HiTS, ILS, multiple GPS?s?.much of the time, they are superfluous. But when you really need that one tool to make the flight safer and more successful, it sure is nice to have! (Let?s face it, that?s how we justify buying shop tools as well?right?;))

Paul
 
AoA max perf

I appreciate the views on AoA.

now besides a piece of yarn on a stick, which I've really, really tried to design onto my -9a, without success,............ any designers out there who can suggest a poor pilots AoA.??
Kudos to all the guys who are marketing nice, turn-key units, but I do not have $1000 + Cdn. to spend.
My ideas are along the line of a re-faced 'surplus' airspeed indicator connected to the 2 wing pressure feeds, with the scale exaggerated.

any armchair engineers out there?
 
An AOA system will make a believer out of you. I took a friend who never saw an AOA on a demonstration flight and introduced him to the AOA Sport fitted to my -6A. As we made the base to final turn I said "See that.... As long as I don't we don't light up the last red light, we are nowhere near stalling." On final, I pitched the nose up at what seemed a rather high angle for such a relatively slow speed, yet the AOA light array flickered safely between the last yellow and first and second of the three red LED's. Based upon the reference I drew from that information, the landing and roll out proved short indeed. So impressed, that friend/builder on a budget is well along with his Zenith 601 project and decided to install a build it yourself AOA kit that was featured on page 96 of the Dec. 2008 edition of Sport Aviation Magazine. That AOA system features a similar LED array.....yet costs a mere $50! With its rather ungainly probe bolted to the pitot tube, I'm not so sure it would be ideal for a fast airplane like an RV but for a LSA application, it sure is the ticket.
http://www.barkeraircraft.com/AOA_kit.html
 

Please be advised there is a serious error on the drawing of the probe. The lower port should extend straight out the end of the probe, not forward at the indicated 45 degree angle. Build the probe per the drawing and you will just have a homemade airspeed indicator that barely works. :)

I second the comments on the value of an AOA indicator for extracting max takeoff and landing performance:

http://thervjournal.com/liftreserve.htm

By the way, the LRI probe (factory or properly fabricated homemade version) works great with the Dynon AOA indicator:

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=36346
 
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Paul, it is not only performance, but safety as well.

These planes are so fun to fly and respond so well, it is easy to do some steep turns when you shouldn't. Like downwind to base or base to final. My AOA will squawk an alarm if you make that turn to tight when slow.

Kent
 
These planes are so fun to fly and respond so well, it is easy to do some steep turns when you shouldn't. Like downwind to base or base to final. My AOA will squawk an alarm if you make that turn to tight when slow.


Absolutely Kent - I don't want to minimize that use at all - good warning if you're flying patterns at 1.3 Vso! Of course, you can bank as steep as you want (staying below aerobatic values in the airport traffic area that is) - as long as you don't load the wing up at the same time!

Paul
 
I am probably treading where I have no business, but can someone explain the difference in AOA and LRI to a non-Aeronautical Engineer?
Thanks.
 
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I am probably treading where I have no business, but can someone explain the difference in AOA and LRI to a non-Aeronautical Engineer?
Thanks.

It has been some time since I studied the LRI, but if I recall correctly, it is simply another AOA indicator. I will happily be corrected if I am wrong.

Paul
 
Paul:

I'm curious how well this "derived AOA" works in unusual attitudes. For example, I'm curious what the AOA shows at the top of a loop when there are very low or 0 Gs on the airplane.

I'm just curious how they're doing the AOA calculation. Using airspeed, bank angle and pitch?

Have you tried to g stall the airplane in a steep turn to see what the AOA does?
 
I am probably treading where I have no business, but can someone explain the difference in AOA and LRI to a non-Aeronautical Engineer?
Thanks.

The Lift Reserve Indicator is an instrument that displays how close an aircraft wing is to stalling. The LRI in principle has been around for about three decades and different versions of it are marketed by more than one vendor. You can read more about the LRI here:

http://www.liftreserve.com

Whether one believes the LRI is a pure-bred AOA or not, it works the same way to give the pilot valuable info during max performance maneuvers. I have flown an LRI for many years and it is the prime instrument I use for takeoffs and landings. The airspeed indicator is used merely as an ocassional reality check to make sure a bug hasn't plugged an LRI port. :)
 
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Paul:

I'm curious how well this "derived AOA" works in unusual attitudes. For example, I'm curious what the AOA shows at the top of a loop when there are very low or 0 Gs on the airplane.

I'm just curious how they're doing the AOA calculation. Using airspeed, bank angle and pitch?

Have you tried to g stall the airplane in a steep turn to see what the AOA does?

I will give a cautious reply that the derived AOA works quite well in the normal approach flight regime, and has also behaved in turning stalls at speeds down below 100 knots and G-loads up to 2.5 or so. I haven't taken it up in the high-G (4+) regime because I haven't been wearing my G-suit recently.

I have glanced at it at the top of a loop, and it is displayed at that point (when the airspeed is low), but haven't actually tried to interpret it, to see if it is reasonable. But it appears to be indicating in the correct direction (more G's, lower speed, head's toward red...).

In short, I am comfortable that it is doing what it should in normal landing pattern flight, and it appears to be working well up above that. Once you get into truly aerobatic flight, I am not sure that the computation rates will keep up with things - but I have no indication that they won't.

Paul
 
I like it too

I have the AFS AOA, and I agree. I installed mine with my AFS-3500 about 4 years after I had finished my airplane, so I have flown with and formerly without AOA.

Most of the time you don't need it. However, at Oshkosh in 2007 we were directed to land on the N-S runway, I think 18. I set up my pattern for the runway, and then the tower changed my runway to 18L which is the taxiway. Anyway, I had a passenger, bags, and full fuel since we had stopped to fuel up about 20 minutes from KOSH. I had to make a tight turn to final, (since the taxiway was between downwind and the runway) and the AOA went into the red, and started saying push-push in my headset. I was doing what seemed to be a normal approach, and it didn't feel much different either. But, being very heavy compared to a normal landing configuration, and the tight turn had definitely made me go much closer to stall than I thought I was at the time. I immediately shallowed the bank by about 10 deg, and made the AOA behave. I don't know if I would have stalled without it, but I wouldn't want to really find out either. In this case, it was worth every penny for me.

As far as how they respond in aerobatics, I think it works well. I have stalled on the top of a loop, and it lights up all the red bars and talks to you about pushing the stick forward.

Also, as mentioned previously, I feel much more comfortable for short fields if I have the AOA. I fly slower than I otherwise would, resulting in really short landing rolls. I have also found that a little burst of power just before touchdown does help because the final flare can be really close to stall if you are heavy.

My 2 cents.
 
+1 for flying by feel. +2 for backing it up with instruments so when your passenger says "what are you doing???" you can point to it and say "flying, you?"
 
I have the AOA Pro in my 7A, and admit that on the three occasions it has "talked to me", it has been in the base to final turn, at my home field, when everything was (maybe too?) familiar, and I was just pokin around looking out the window (almost being a passenger as all of us are sometimes guilty of)...all three times I almost soiled myself because I THOUGHT I had everything set up for a normal approach. Did it save my bacon? Don't know...but I use it often when I'm "Bob the attentive pilot" both in the landing and takeoff regimes. I believe AOA's are a lifesaver in these RV's when you're low, slow or pulling steep turns.
 
Need some AoA info

OK, this one is for the AE guys. I have a Dynon EFIS that outputs the AoA as a percent of stall angle. You have to do a series of stalls to calibrate the EFIS and it sets the highest AoA is sees as the stall. Now for the question, based on an RV-4 wing, what percent of stall angle would correlate to max range, max endurance, and optimum approach? In case you are wondering what I?m going to do with this data, I have a built in onboard computer and I have written software to do all kinds of cool stuff. I want to take this data and make an AoA indexer for approach and a gauge for flying max range. Thanks in advance.
 
Dynon AOA

I have the Dynon pitot with AOA planned for my plane, just wonder what those that fly with it think of the system. My time in the military was behind and AOA indicator and I really like them, but of course if it puts out bad information or is not trusted then you might as well not have it installed.

If you have the Dynon AOA, how well does the algorithm reflect real AOA and is it any good other than the pattern?

Thanks
 
AoA for varying flap settings.........?

so you guys that have the AoA or LRI, how much change is there in the display with flap?
I've seen calibrated test numbers that show flaps only lowers the stall speed by a few mph per 'notch', but of course that's speed, not angle.

I plan to install one, but want to be able at a glance to read the top scale for 'no flap' and another scale for 'full flap' so the safety margin remains accurate.

thx
 
so you guys that have the AoA or LRI, how much change is there in the display with flap?
I've seen calibrated test numbers that show flaps only lowers the stall speed by a few mph per 'notch', but of course that's speed, not angle.

I plan to install one, but want to be able at a glance to read the top scale for 'no flap' and another scale for 'full flap' so the safety margin remains accurate.

thx

The Advanced Flight Systems AOA has two modes, one with and one without flaps. If I recall correctly, it switches modes at about 1/3 flaps. One has to calibrate it in both configurations. I calibrated at no flaps and full flaps.

Guy
 
I have the Dynon pitot with AOA planned for my plane, just wonder what those that fly with it think of the system. My time in the military was behind and AOA indicator and I really like them, but of course if it puts out bad information or is not trusted then you might as well not have it installed.

If you have the Dynon AOA, how well does the algorithm reflect real AOA and is it any good other than the pattern?

Thanks

I have both the LRI and Dynon AOA displays in my RV-6. I can't help with info regarding flight other than in the pattern, but in the pattern the Dynon is consistently in sync with the LRI indicator. I haven't seen any reason not to trust either one in the pattern.

so you guys that have the AoA or LRI, how much change is there in the display with flap?
I've seen calibrated test numbers that show flaps only lowers the stall speed by a few mph per 'notch', but of course that's speed, not angle.

I plan to install one, but want to be able at a glance to read the top scale for 'no flap' and another scale for 'full flap' so the safety margin remains accurate.

thx

Definite difference in AOA indications flaps-up vs flaps full down. I have my LRI calibrated to stall flaps up at the red/white line, and with flaps full down it stalls well into the red arc. For max landing performance I try to cross the fence with the needle at the white/green line and let AOA bleed down (up?) into the white arc in the flare. That leaves a tiny amount of margin and makes this pilot pucker a little less........ :)
 
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