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First-time builder dilemma: RV-3 or RV-8?

Think about building costs:

You'll need an 0-360 + CS to get all the performance out of an -8. An RV3 will fly fabulously on a O-320 + FP, at probably half the cost.

200lb pilot + parachute + gas = you're probably overgross in a -3 for aerobatics.

Oh my gosh, working on an RV3 engine in the accessory case area means scraped, twisted bloody knuckles! There is very little room back there. Want a spin-on oil filter and a CS prop on a -3? Shoehorn 'em in there! (why oh why didn't Van design the tail a little longer on the -3 and put the engine out a little further??)

You'll climb out at 2500fpm in your -3 with an 0-320 and Catto FP. And you'll burn 6gph for a local hop, 7gph for an XC cruise at 160kts.

Think about maintenance. For a thousand operating hours you gotta:

- change oil & filter 2-3 times a year
- clean, gap, ohm-check the plugs every 30 hours or so
- borescope the cylinders
- replace brake pads (6 times), o-rings, disks
- replace tires, tubes (four sets of tires)
- pack wheel bearings (six times)
- do annuals
- re-torque the FP prop
- fix leaking pushrod seals
- fix leaking valve covers
- fix leaking carb accel pump
- fix/replace voltage regulator
- replace battery (three times)
- replace altimeter (twice)
- replace the starter
- replace the alternator belt (twice)
- replace all oil and gas hoses (twice)
- repair oil temp sender (twice)
- replace oil temp vernatherm
- clean oil pressure relief valve
- yank the mags every 500 hrs
- test mag timing and cylinder compression every year
- clean gas filter, air filter
- check/ream valve guides every 400 hours (Lyc SB 388)
- check engine and accessory AD's
- fix cracks in heat muffs
- fix cracks/leaks in cooling baffles
- replace worn scat tubing
- replace worn brake lines
- install the latest (prop, EFIS, LED lights, lightweight starter, GPS gadget, etc)
- fix fuel tank leak(s)
- replace o-rings on (fuel caps, primer pumps, fuel valves, master cylinders, etc)
- replace radio
- mode-C transponder check every two years
- have I forgotten anything??

Now, do you really want to also have to maintain an ELT, an autopilot, a CS prop, an IFR panel, two acro parachutes, two radio headsets and an ICS? (and thank heaven RV's aren't retractable!)

We all have to install ADS-B soon. Does a -3 have enough panel space for an EFIS, XM weather and ADS-B-in?

Think about that biannual flight review: If you own a -3, you'll have to rent a 172 every two years (with an -8, the CFI will pay you to go up ... or so I've heard)

Think about operating costs: How much does a hanger cost? You can shoe-horn a -3 into a hanger with someone else easier because it's smaller. Full hull insurance on an -8 is what, $1500, $2000/yr? (liability-only for a -3 is $250/yr).

Think about gas. 100LL is going away. What will be around for those 180+hp high-compression IO-360's four years from now? (use no-ethanol mogas for your RV3 0-320 with 7:1 pistons, yep)

Think about passengers. Do you want to expose friends & family to the hazards of your high-performance RV? (400+ accidents and 200+ fatalities over the years - yeah, go add up the NTSB reports on RV accidents). Lots of folks maintain their airplanes to near perfection and fly passengers safely. Can you? Or would your wife/gf/best pal be just as happy sitting next to you in a benign rented 172?

Finally, I built my -3 over a seven year period when I was also doing my flight training. The -3 fits my mission perfectly, but I just got lucky on that. After a thousand hours, I've probably put in as much time maintaining the plane as I spent building it! Ah, to be an RV aviator!

- Steven
(1000+ RV3 hours ... another one day before yesterday!)
 
"200lb pilot + parachute + gas = you're probably overgross in a -3 for aerobatics. "

45 pounds over XC gross to be exact - assuming an electrical system.

I don't know what the acro gross is for the -3.
 
Great post Steven, flying cost a lot off money. Some aspects are not very obvious to a novice. I am hoping to build 3RV in the future, mostly because it looks like cheapest to build and to own. I would love to build larger plane,however , money is just not there. In my case, I don't need to worry about overloading the plane. At 152 lbs I can do acrobatics with no problem.
 
Waterobert said:
Great post Steven, flying cost a lot off money. Some aspects are not very obvious to a novice. I am hoping to build 3RV in the future, mostly because it looks like cheapest to build and to own. I would love to build larger plane,however , money is just not there. In my case, I don't need to worry about overloading the plane. At 152 lbs I can do acrobatics with no problem.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, pound-for-pound, and all other things being equal, the RV-3 is going to be more expensive than a similarly equipped RV of another model. That might not make sense until you realize that the price of the kit is usually about 1/3rd of the completed aircraft. Engines and props cost about the sames (within the 150 - 180 HP range), and if you put the same flavor of avionics in either one, that;s a wash as well. Sure, if you are comparing a light, simple RV-3 built with an engine you got from your uncle and no radio to a full IFR RV-7, then there is a huge difference. but with similar equipment/appointments, the RV-3 is not going to save you that much money.

Paul
 
You are right Paul, you have build the best and most likely the most expensive RV3 on the planet.😀
In my case, I will try to build it without autopilot, latest glass panel etc.
VFR will be plenty for me , at least for now.
 
Exquisite is never cheap

Paul Dye makes a very accurate point. I have over 50k in my day VFR 3B. If your mission is not the ultimate civilian flying experience, there may be better choices.
 
Are 3's really the best flying experience? Every once in a while I find myself checking barnstormers for a laser or one design. I have no idea how they fly but they certainly look like fun.
 
rph142 said:
Are 3's really the best flying experience?....
Click to expand...

Sure hope so! I'm building one.

Gotta admit that I'm doing it more for the fun of the building than to have a fun plane, although I won't object to that.

To the OP, run the costs out say a thousand hours and see if the lower fuel burn of an RV-12 works out any cheaper, all in all. It handles great and has exceptional visibility. And of course other non-RV aircraft might be even cheaper.

Dave, RV-3B,
Started riveting flaps today
 
You can build a light and simple RV-8 using a FP prop and get plenty of performance out of it. Then when you have the extra cash, put a CS prop on the front and add the luxury items you want, as your budget allows.

As for the biannual flight review in a -3, the regs state that the CFI only has to observe you. (Unless the regs have changed.) A friend took his BFR in his -3 with the CFI sitting on the ground telling the pilot what maneuver he wanted him to do via handheld radio. (Loop, roll, stall, spin, etc. - It was one heck of a show!)
 
N941WR said:
As for the biannual flight review in a -3, the regs state that the CFI only has to observe you. (Unless the regs have changed.) A friend took his BFR in his -3 with the CFI sitting on the ground telling the pilot what maneuver he wanted him to do via handheld radio. (Loop, roll, stall, spin, etc. - It was one heck of a show!)
Click to expand...

Awesome! :)
 
N941WR said:
As for the biannual flight review in a -3, the regs state that the CFI only has to observe you. (Unless the regs have changed.) A friend took his BFR in his -3 with the CFI sitting on the ground telling the pilot what maneuver he wanted him to do via handheld radio. (Loop, roll, stall, spin, etc. - It was one heck of a show!)
Click to expand...

I took my type rating checkride in a single-seat jet in a similar fashion - a list of things to do on my kneeboard, and a GoPro camera mounted above my head on the canopy watching the panel and horizon. Had to do it to ATP standards, and the GoPro and EFIS told the tale.

Not sure the average CFI woudl be happy doing a BFR that way, but I know its been done! Then again, the OP (remember the OP? asked a simple quesiton ages and pages back?) is in Europe, and I have no idea what the rules are there.
 
Thank you all for the encouragement and information!

Between Christmas preparations a few things I thought over: While the -3 would seemingly be the best handling-wise, it would be a tight fit to stay within weight limitations. Supposing I could manage a 800-850 lbs empty weight build, heaving my 82 kg + clothing/boots/helmet (~200 lbs) into the cockpit already maxes out zero-fuel weight.

An alternative might be a 1+1 -4: Move back the front seat 3 or 4 inches (Is that wise? Would also move the V-shaped braces under the longeron to align with the rollover bar), dispense with back-stick capability, and see the rear seat as baggage room and possible emergency seating means; think of motorcycle rear post which is not really fun for a person either. For check rides I could easily rent one of the aeroclub's Robin DR400.

This might be a silly question, but is the weight difference between a 320 and 360 engine really that much of an issue? Just for the discussion, Superior advertises for the XP engines a weight difference between the two at 7 lbs which seems not much, so while perhaps not worth it for a -3, a -4 with a 360 engine would not incur a too large increase in weight over a similar 320 one. As a previous poster brought forward, Avgas will sooner or later go, and e.g. in Germany Mogas is readily available (and might spread further over the continent in the future); so it seems that staying with a standard-compression 360 would keep this option viable in a better way than a similarly-powered higher-compression 320.

Summing up my discussion ideas up until now:
  • day-only VFR (no landing/taxi lights weight),
  • fuel-injected IO-320 or IO-360,
  • dual electronic ignition/P-mags,
  • lightweight WW or MT CS prop,
  • smaller/lighter alternator (transponder, radio, EFIS, and fuel boost pump should be able to be run off a small alternator, e.g. the SD-20),
  • EFIS with ALT/ASI steam backup,
  • lightweight comm and transponder (e.g. Trig seems to manufacture light ones),
  • electric trim (seems lighter than manual),
  • manual flaps (or electric if that saves weight),
  • hoping that 2016ff. EU regulations will allow PLBs instead of heavier ELTs for small aircraft,
  • shedding a few pilot pounds after the holidays (no chance before due to sumptuous Christmas cooking ...)

If ending up with these ideas after gaining more flying experience and tackling the building, would I be able to get a -4 with the 360 under 1000 lbs, or a -3 with the 320 under 850 lbs?


Cheers and happy holidays,
Sebastian
 
RV-3 under 850 lbs is very realistic. Few weeks ago someone finished one around 735 lbs.
I don't know how wide is -3's cabin, will you have enough elbow room on longer flights?
Does anyone know?
 
You would have to work to get a RV-3 up to 850#. Mine is 755# with a 0-320D1A, wood prop, mags, light starter, steam gauges, paint, com and transponder. It could be less with EFIS, EI ignition and a light weight battery. More weight could be saved with a newer com and xponder. You could also skip the paint and polish it for another 20-30# saving.
 
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