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  #11  
Old 01-09-2013, 03:07 AM
RV10inOz's Avatar
RV10inOz RV10inOz is offline
 
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Quote:
Considering the ultimate plite of 100LL
And what is that exactly? To be replaced by a suitable unleaded version. Of the three possible ones I have the following comments.

1. The European 94UL is only good for small engines, and is not a one size fits all. So in the USA and several other countries it would not be the answer. Having several grades is not economic either.

2. Swift Fuel. Lots of noise....little results, and the cost of production is in my opinion likely to be a show stopper.

3. G100UL, works, works across all engines, works in the big high power engines of the warbirds and high MP radials that are stuck in low blower now on 100LL. Passed all the FAA certification tests, lots of report writing etc to be completed. Simple to make, 100% compatible with any residual Avgas, so phase in is not an issue. Cost, most likely less but comparible to avgas and can be produced in any descent refinery, no hazmat issues.

From the above, which do you think has the best chance of success?

As for the diesel option, the RV10 cowls, cooling and other issues........despite the price, I would not even consider it to be an option.

YMMV of course. I hate to rain on someones parade, but it is what it is. Now a $70000 turbine, even with high fuel burn, that could be interesting!
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  #12  
Old 01-09-2013, 05:44 AM
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pierre smith pierre smith is offline
 
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Default Easy

KISS (keep it simple, stupid).. is a Lyc up front. How many RV-10 owners have ever decided to replace their Lyc with a Sube or diesel?

We're a bunch of happy campers, flying our easy-to-mantain, dependable Lycs for thousands of hours

Best,
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  #13  
Old 01-09-2013, 06:41 AM
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RV10inOz RV10inOz is offline
 
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Pierre,

As usual
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  #14  
Old 01-09-2013, 11:31 AM
Wayne Gillispie Wayne Gillispie is offline
 
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German made Zoche ZO 02A 8 cyl radial(2 banks of 4)would look nice.

I am with Pierre at least for 1,900 more hours. With a slow economy at 50 hrs/yr, my -540 should do me 38 more years. That is 80 years old for me, so don't think I will worry about going diesel.
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  #15  
Old 02-01-2013, 04:12 PM
Strasnuts Strasnuts is offline
 
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Default One more thing

The SMA 305-230 has 30 less horsepower and weighs 45 more pounds than an IO-540-D4A5. The Jet-A weighs 40 pounds more too if carrying 60 gallons. So if they only offer the 230 hp version, it would cost us 30 hp and 85 pounds! I would be excited to see something with closer numbers.
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  #16  
Old 02-01-2013, 10:57 PM
N427EF N427EF is offline
 
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Quote:
3. G100UL, works, works across all engines, works in the big high power engines of the warbirds and high MP radials that are stuck in low blower now on 100LL. Passed all the FAA certification tests, lots of report writing etc to be completed. Simple to make, 100% compatible with any residual Avgas, so phase in is not an issue. Cost, most likely less but comparible to avgas and can be produced in any descent refinery, no hazmat issues.
I am still waiting for that big announcement, I don't know who or what is holding it up but I am glad I don't have to wait for it.

Let's face it, that SMA Diesel isn't going anywhere especially not in an RV-10.
I remember well my enthusiasm for alternative engine options and I am glad I saw the light in a Lycoming.
Just to make sure I am not misunderstood as a curmudgeon, I always keep an eye on new developments and would love to see something better than a Lycoming. But for now it is the cheapest, lightest and most reliable engine available for the RV-10.
If you don't want to pay for avgas you can run your 540 on mogas, it runs even better than on avgas.
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  #17  
Old 02-02-2013, 07:07 AM
paul330 paul330 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N427EF View Post
If you don't want to pay for avgas you can run your 540 on mogas, it runs even better than on avgas.
Except that the IO540 is not approved for Mogas so what about the liability/insurance/warranty issues?
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  #18  
Old 02-02-2013, 09:20 AM
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David Shelton David Shelton is offline
 
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SMA 305

HP: 230 hp
70% Cruise: 194 mph
Range: 1,261
Consumption: 10 gph / 67.9 lbs/hr
Cost Per Gallon: $5.63
Fuel Cost Per Hour: $56.30
Fuel Cost Per Lifetime (5,000 hr): $281,500

IO-540

HP: 260 hp
70% Cruise: 201 mph
Range: 968 mi
Consumption: 13.5 gph / 81 lbs/hr
Cost Per Gallon: $5.94
Fuel Cost Per Hour: $80.19
Fuel Cost Per Lifetime (5,000 hr): $401,000

The SMA is heavier but it gets the same range with a 50 gallon tank. Total weight of engine + fuel are very similar when both aircraft are fueled for the same range.

The SMA engine is more expensive to buy. However, it can save a lot of money in fuel over the airplane life.

I think both engines are probably a good choice for the RV-10 but someone would have to do a lot of engineering to properly install the SMA engine. I'm sure that will happen at some point because 100LL is very hard to find in some places.
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  #19  
Old 02-02-2013, 10:00 AM
N427EF N427EF is offline
 
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Quote:
Except that the IO540 is not approved for Mogas so what about the liability/insurance/warranty issues?
In fact, the 8:1 540 is approved for 91 octane.

But this thread is about the RV 10 an experimental airplane and the builder will determine what kind of gas or engine, SMA, Subaru, Zoche or Jabiru you can use.
Just saying, if none of these choices suit your needs or wants, consider the fact that you may absolutely use mogas and that just might put the equation in your favor of an old fashioned Lycoming for the time being.

David,
interesting calculation, I can't dispute it but:

Let's say we take our Lycoming and throttle back to the same power output as your SMA we would certainly be on par with fuel consumption and our range would be similar.
The price of Diesel? I have yet to find a place where diesel is less expensive than avgas, I am sure it exists but not around here.

Now if you use the price of mogas over 5000hrs as in your example, you could trash 2 Lycomings and still be ahead at the end.
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Last edited by N427EF : 02-02-2013 at 10:11 AM.
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  #20  
Old 02-02-2013, 05:58 PM
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RV10inOz RV10inOz is offline
 
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Ernst,
Quote:
I am still waiting for that big announcement, I don't know who or what is holding it up but I am glad I don't have to wait for it.
Dam right, you would not want to be hanging by your...errr, somewhere sensitive would you? But have you ever been mad enough to certify such a thing with the FAA? I might get an update for you in about 6 weeks when I get inside the Ada skunkworks again


David, let's revise these numbers.
Quote:
SMA 305 I will trust you on these

HP: 230 hp
70% Cruise: 194 mph
Range: 1,261
Consumption: 10 gph / 67.9 lbs/hr
Cost Per Gallon: $5.63
Fuel Cost Per Hour: $56.30
Fuel Cost Per Lifetime (5,000 hr): $281,500

IO-540

HP: 260 hp
70% Cruise: 201 mph 196MPH more often
Range: 968 mi 964 miles about the same!
Consumption: 13.5 gph / 81 lbs/hr 12.2gph 73 lbs/hr
Cost Per Gallon: $5.94
Fuel Cost Per Hour: $80.19 $72.46
Fuel Cost Per Lifetime (5,000 hr): $401,000 $362,300
However lets look at the same power output numbers, 70% of 230HP or 161HP

HP: 260 hp run at 161HP (61.9%)
161HP 62% Cruise: guessing 185mph
Range: 1027 mi
Consumption: 10.8 gph / 65 lbs/hr
Cost Per Gallon: $5.94
Fuel Cost Per Hour: $64.15
Fuel Cost Per Lifetime (5,000 hr): $320,760 or for the same range $302,319

So when the numbers account for $20K more in fuel over that time, the difference is not so great.

We could go on to TB's etc and argue the toss of the coin on what things will be, but the big appeal of a $120K fuel saving is simply not there. Mind you here in Oz it gets a bit better, but not enough to motivate me yet.

YMMV of course
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Last edited by RV10inOz : 02-02-2013 at 06:11 PM.
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