Minimum Used IFR GPS Only (155XL?) for GRT

I am a VFR pilot but thinking of getting an IFR ticket. I am very comfortable flying with reference to instruments (using my autopilot), and I expect my primary non-legal navigation to be redundant ADS-B map displays on foreflight or iflygps. My airplane already has ADS-B in and out, and a GRT Sport EX display.

As to my IFR needs, I primarily want to be able to punch through clouds at 800'+ AGL. I do not care for long IFR enroute flights, nor do I want to do hard IFR landings or takeoffs. I am not trying to become a professional pilot and/or to step up. I do need to be able to pass the IFR checkride. (And I do not want VOR equipment anywhere close to my airplane.)

Would a used Garmin GNC 155 XL do the job? They can be had for under $2,000 on ebay. (and what exactly is an FAA 8130-3 form, that is touted on some of the ads?) Does one of these even satisfy standalone IFR operation without VORs/GSs? For my needs, what would it loose vs. a GNC355 or used 430W? (Again, I really want only IFR above 800' AGL.)

Advice appreciated.

/iaw

I?d pay a bit more and get a new Garmin GPS 175. In fact thats my next planned upgrade for my GRT panel. The 155XL is non-waas, which means, if I remember correctly, that you would still need another legal navigation source (ie, VOR/ILS). The 175 can be your stand-alone IFR unit and is light years ahead in terms of technology, and will be supported for a long time to come.

Chris

No. As noted in post #2 this box is a TSO129 box (non-WAAS). You may not legally use it for ifr unless you have alternate navigstion on board, e.g., a VOR. Problem #2. This box won’t do a ‘precision’ approach (I put this in quotes to keep nit-pickers at bay. It won’t do an LPV approach). One precision or LPV approach is part of the instrument checkride. Problem 3: Strictly speaking the ACS says you need to do 3 different kinds of approaches on the check ride. Some examiners will accept work-arounds in the interpretation.
The 8130 form is a ‘return to service’ form, needed for normally certified aircraft but not EAB.
Not sure what you meant by ‘comfortable with instruments using the autopilot.’

Ugghhh... the garmin 175 is $4,300 and no used market exists just yet. it also seems like a 355 without the radio, so if I need a new radio, I may as well...

it is very expensive to be able to punch through a cloud layer :-(

Yup, the cost to join the legal IFR club is pricey. I just installed a GNC355 to my AFS VFR Quick Panel which gave me the IFR navigator and an additional com radio. If you do pull the trigger, the new Garmins are very user friendly, easy to update and interface with most EFIS units. You are also going to need the database subscription ($500/yr.). You can download the Garmin trainer and give it a try. If you can swing it I would avoid installing an older unit as they become more obsolete.

VOR/ILS

iaw4 said:

it is very expensive to be able to punch through a cloud layer :-(

Click to expand...

Not necessarily, depending on what you have in your panel AND the availability of suitable nav aids. The VAL Avionics NAV 2000 will interface directly with a Dynon SkyView and the Advanced Flight Systems EFIS (AFAIK) to give you VOR and ILS capability for a bit over $1000. Add a homebrewed "Bob Archer" antenna in a wingtip. Works for me.

I would be very reluctant to get any unit this old.

I presently have a GX60 that is the same vintage / design time frame. The Database for the GX60 will no longer be updateable after December 2019. This will be the last NEW / current database ever for the unit.

Garmin purchased the company that made the GX60 years ago. The PCMCIA card have been required to be doubled in size since the unit came out and the new GPS databases keep adding new waypoints requiring two cards to cover the lower 48 states where one card use to cover all of north america.

IF you purchase a used unit as old as the 155XL, ask yourself how long will it be till database support is no longer available? These TSO units require backup navigation so you also require at least a VOR.

Maybe I should rethink the GPS-based idea, especially because the $500 annual subscription only adds insult to injury. I like GPS not for the source of information, but for the presentation of the information. I really do not want to fiddle around with rotating dials and guessing maps.

I wonder how the VAL overlays onto a moving map from a GRT-like GPS moving map (whose role is also to be the CDI) and/or Foreflight IFR. Maybe it is enough to do the job with good situational perspective, after all, and much much cheaper.

iaw4 said:

Maybe I should rethink the GPS-based idea, especially because the $500 annual subscription only adds insult to injury... SNIP

Click to expand...

The only database requirement to legally fly GPS approaches is to have a current NAV database. For something like the GTN-650 this is $299 per year for the US (from Garmin). If you have a modern EFIS (like the SkyView), Terrain, Obstacles and NAV data updates are provided free. Considering the SkyView is an order of magnitude better display of such things than the GTN-650, there no need to waste more money with Garmin for those database updates.

Side note - while I admire your thinking on economical flying, there is no such thing as “minimal IFR”. Once you are in the unexpected soup the plan to pop above the layer is long gone. I recommend you decide on your end state IFR panel and incrementally implement it as cash is available.

For me, flying IFR with dual integrated SkyView displays, a TSO GPS navigator, ADS-B, dual axis autopilot and such is now my minimum IFR equipage. You can legally do IFR with less, but for me this is not where I scrimp.

Carl

thank you for the advice.

Well, right now, I am a VFR pilot. The IFR I want is supposed to give me one extra legal capability---overcast sky. (With my very competent ADS-B WAAS GPS, high-end EFIS, heated pitot, and autopilot, I have all the equipment [and skills] to survive in the soup if need be, but I will plan never to get into real soup (beyond a simple cloud layer 800' AGL), just like I now have to plan never to get into IMC.

Good to know that a $300 rather than $500 subscription will do. Maybe back to the 355?!

But I now know that I should find out what I can do with only one VOR/ILS talking to a modern EFIS. If it can do the legal part of the 800' cloud layer punch through, it is all I need. For the experienced IFR pilots, anyone know? (For unplanned emergencies in thickening soup, I will have the VFR equipment, which nowadays is so amazingly good, it seems more than sufficient.)

/iaw

IMHO, If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right. Actual IMC, for a short or long periods of time, is serious business. No need to splurge, but not something to scrimp on.

FWIW: I have the VAL-429 in my instrument panel but as a 100% independent system not feeding the DYNON SkyView. The VAL-429 indications perfectly match the G430W/SkyView combination ILS/LOC/VOR indications. It works amazingly well so it is a trustworthy backup.


Yes, I have more displays than a local Sports Bar.

iaw4 said:

thank you for the advice.

But I now know that I should find out what I can do with only one VOR/ILS talking to a modern EFIS. If it can do the legal part of the 800' cloud layer punch through, it is all I need. For the experienced IFR pilots, anyone know? (For unplanned emergencies in thickening soup, I will have the VFR equipment, which nowadays is so amazingly good, it seems more than sufficient.)

/iaw

Click to expand...

The FARs spell out the minimum equipment required by law. But the vast majority of instrument pilots would say that they would be very uncomfortable flying with the minimum. Basically, the minimum equipment leaves you one failure away from dying. Most would like at least 2 independent efis systems (or a back up AI), powered by independent power sources (or self contained back up batteries). Similarly for radios. As to navigation: again, the FARs prescribe the minimum: ?Navigation appropriate for the route?. That?s not much guidance. If your home airport has a VOR approach (getting rare) you might get away with a single nav radio, hoping it never fails. Most ILS approaches will require more: maybe a VOR, or DME, or marker beacons or, God help us, an ADF to identify the final approach fix, or for the missed approach procedure.
As others have cautioned, ifr is serious business. Maybe the ceiling looks to be about 800?. Maybe the forecast calls for tops at 2000?. But where are they really? You don?t know for sure. Maybe another aircraft will cause ATC to hold you within the clouds. Maybe while you?re flying the ceiling will unexpectedly lower to 200? and 1/2 mile vis. What will you do if all you have is a VOR? Lots of ?ifs?. It?s best to think about them as much as possible.

BTW, I hope you (OP) don?t feel ?dumped on?. The truth is, you have a very real chicken and egg problem. Experienced ifr pilots have a very good idea of what equipment is required by law; what is required for them to feel a reasonable level of safety and utility; what are ?nice to haves?; and if it all works within their budget realities. Everyone is different, so they all end up with different panels. Not having the benefit of that experience, you are left getting 1001 opinions. So here is mine: Talk to a few local cfii?s. See what they would want to see in the panel to fly with you. Get the rating. Then decide what equipment you really want to add, if any. Just as an example: I personally would decline to fly with you in actual IMC, without a second independent attitude source. I would really like to see three (to break a tie -if it?s not obvious which one has failed). But everyone?s comfort level is different. Ask around.

Once Again

There ain?t no such thing as soft IFR.

Carl was correct, I checked, and the navigation database for the Garmin is $299/yr. .
Thanks you saved me $200 bucks.

I don't feel dumped on, at all. quite the opposite. very informative, many posters very helpful (and especially when they disagree). vaf forum is terrific.

ok, as a VFR pilot, let me voice a quick opinion with reactions welcome.

there is legal minimum requirements. anyone flying with only legal minimum equipment asks for trouble. however, my statement must be qualified by optional situational awareness equipment. with a lot of good VFR equipment, not IFR certified, I am better equipped than with a lot of planes with a lot of legal IFR equipment. an iPad with foreflight or iflygps, powered by a WAAS ADSB GPS (plus built-in GPS), seems superior and safer than old airplanes. even the GNC355 seems inferior to awareness compared to, say, a GRT 10.1 with synthetic vision, large moving map, and backups.

would I be ok in the clouds with old style vaccuums, two VORs/GS, and paper maps? no. never. the FAA likes it, I don't.

would I be ok in the clouds with two independent EFISs, two independent good GPS maps, one controlling my autopilot, but only minimum legal IFR equipment? yes. I like it, the FAA barely allows it.

I do not want to save money on equipment helping me in IMC. I want to save money on equipment primarily for the FAA's sake. for those who have $10k invested in IFR screens AND who have an iPad with Foreflight, which one do you really look at? (of course, one needs a backup to the iPad, but this could be some other VFR tool.)

I caution everyone I run across using an iPad that it not for any element of IFR flight, other than flight planning and/or the third backup (or for music feed into the audio panel for the long cross country legs).

There are many reasonable options for EFIS displays these days that will not trip off on heat or get dropped as you fumble with it.

I have used an iPad for ADS-B in an IFR capable RV-8 (not mine) that had a 430W and a six pack and two axis autopilot. This was strictly VFR and I found the ipad just one step above useless. Reliance on an iPad for IFR situational awareness is asking for trouble.

But I?m an amateur pilot that relies on solid avionics when I fly IFR. How people flew IFR with just a six pack, spinning iron gyros, a fragile vacuum pump and a VOR receiver simply amazes me.

Flame away - but I have set my minimum standard for IFR flight. I recommend everyone do the same.

Carl