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Terrible FSDO experience in San Diego; Resolved

The Drama Continues

Here's the letter I just wrote to Tom Charpentier at EAA after speaking with him on the phone this morning.

Tom,
So? I made another appointment. Last time, the inspector ended by saying ?Get familiar with what?s required to do a condition inspection and come back, you?ll get it next time?.
So I did just that. I found all the regs, CFRs and FARS pertaining to ops lims, repairman cert requirements and condition inspection requirements.
I had all my paperwork in order. AND per your suggestion I had my DAR write a letter noting that he had visited the build 3 times and that he personally knew of my workmanship and experience.
Upon arrival, I was given a different inspector. Roger Messick. Within about 1 minute of showing him my paperwork and the photos of our build on my iPad, the previous inspector, Gregory Nolting, sticks his head out and immediately starts harrasing me. He told Roger that I had been in before and ?Failed miserably?. He also stated ?you can?t even fly that plane out of here, I?m going to call the airport manager and have all the experimental kicked off this field!!? This BLEEP is on a witch-hunt for experimentals for some reason.
He also denied ever telling me that I couldn?t even work on my plane without a repairman?s cert. This because I flashed the 14.43.D in his face and said ?Show me!!?
After a bit of back and forth, Gregory left, and Roger took copies of my AC, my repaiman?s application, my AW App and Registration to the back. He comes back and says that he talked to HIS boss and that they have questions about my DAR?s sign offs. Specifically they said that my DAR used his A&P number in places he should have used in DAR number. I asked for specifics but got none.
They want me to come back on Tuesday the 24th at 9am ? I run my own company and this is getting the be a MAJOR hassle.
Note: I looked through ALL the documentation and my DAR?s number is correct in every place. I called my DAR, and together we went through every piece of paper and made sure everything is correct, and it is.

I?m also writing a letter to my congressman Daryl Issa, This is getting ridiculous.
I?ve complied with all the regs and requirements and I?m in 100% in compliance with what?s needed to get my repaiman?s cert for my plane.

Tom,
Please advise as I don?t want to wait until Tuesday and go through another dog and pony show?.







Here's PITA #1...



And #2....

 
If you have to stick with this FSDO...

Document *everything*. Take written notes. Let them see you taking written notes. Note date, time, anyone else in the office or vicinity (and get their contact information). Make sure the notes are as close to verbatim, quoted statements as possible. You might consider turning on your iPhone and recording your interactions. Take pictures...of the stack of stuff you bring to the office, etc.

Then get EAA involved. Get an aviation lawyer's advice if you have to.

At some point, sounds like you'll have to go over their heads...that's okay, everybody has a boss, that's the way of the world. If they're violating regulations or breaking the law or are just plain being discriminatory, that's what bosses are for. And bosses have bosses, too.

Good luck!
 
Oh, and if they complain about recording...they are public employees doing their job in public. There's no expectation of privacy, so you should be free to record any of your interactions with them.
 
Even though you are dealing with the Feds (FAA), California has a "Two party-consent" law outlined in CA Penal Code section 632. Surreptitious recordings of conversations/communications where one party has a reasonable expectation of privacy are unlawful.
 
Just tell them you will be recording. Even consider bringing a person with an obvious video camera and record them saying they understand they are being recorded. If you are in a public place, you can record anything you want.

Things change pretty fast when they know they can't just spout **** regulations that are not factual.

Good luck with this.
 
Chkaharyer99 said:
Even though you are dealing with the Feds (FAA), California has a "Two party-consent" law outlined in CA Penal Code section 632. Surreptitious recordings of conversations/communications where one party has a reasonable expectation of privacy are unlawful.
Click to expand...

A) Don't be surreptitious. There's no reason to be sneaky here.
B) There's no expectation of privacy for a public official acting in public, dealing with a member of the public.

In any case...just tell them outright...and then turn it on and set it on the counter.
 
I would think that the 'recording' issue is just going to make it more adversarial. They might even just cancel the appointment and tell you to reschedule.

I think that transcribed notes are effective for documenting the situation if it gets escalated further.
 
FAA

The way to deal with sub humans like this is to write a letter to FAA Region with copies to FAA Administrator and all your congress people. You may also want to copy the incoming transportation secretary and the DOT Inspector General.
The San Diego FSDO has a horrible reputation, likewise Riverside.
 
It is adversarial now. Comments by the faa official already set the battle. It is their job to do what the poster is asking them to do. They have no reason to cancel an appointment and drag this out.

I do have to remember I have only heard one side, but the poster really has no motive other than to get his repairman certificate where the faa appears to not like experimental planes or non AP people being able to work on their own planes.

I would be at the meeting with a camera man, my attorney, and possibly a member to the press. I have had to do that before for zoning and other political issues in my business and things change pretty fast when the public official knows everyone is watching.
 
I appreciate the feedback..... here's the latest.
Today was a lot of phone calls. I spoke to EAA several times and talked to FAA in OK city. Overwhelmingly the response is that this guy and this office is completely wrong...
Tom Charpentier called me back late this afternoon and he had me on speakerphone with Sean Elliot, Vice President of Advocacy. They called my FSDO office and talked to the two men. Roger quickly passed the buck to Gregory(the problem). Apparently they got into a screaming match. In Tom and Sean's own words "that guy is very disconnected". So Tom and Sean are escalating this to Washington. They said it will get resolved within a few days.
I really hope the hammer comes down hard on this guy.....
I will keep you all posted.
I've dealt with some ignorant power hungry people who were completely wrong in my time, but this is pretty rediculous for a pretty petty certificate. But yet, one I'm entitled to.
 
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It's a 30 minute flight to where you can taxi up to the Riverside FSDO; you'd probably be back in San Diego with your temporary Repairman's Certificate in less than 2 hours. :rolleyes: You have to decide if you want to be right, or if want your Certificate.
 
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John, any indication the inspectors just don't think you built it, or didn't have enough hands-on with all build operations to qualify? Gotta admit, asking for a Repairmans Certificate in San Diego when the DAR inspection was in Missouri might reasonably be a red flag. Yes, I know your situation and the rules. I'm just curious.
 
Unfortunately there is no universal standard.lucky I had heard it takes a lot of time to acomplish certification without using $$$$ DAR.I am on border of THREE FSO. I started w
Albany ,NY, they sent me to Tetabouro,NY,who sent me to Long Island ,NY.They sent me to Bradley,Conn. They all suggested DARs, but gentleman from Conn could not have been more courteous, professional,or knowledgeable.Their inspection took several hours, Andrew was mainly concerned with condition of aircraft and that I was builder.Recieved AW and operation
Limitations before they left.Unfortunately weather,other commitments will prevent me from
Flying RV 4 (N9214) SER # 538 ! til spring Tom
 
Having followed this tread last year and living in San Diego, I decided to go to the Denver FSDO since I live part of the year in the Colorado mountains. Me and another gentleman had all the volumes of paperwork and documentation to show the examiner when we arrived. The examiner was very interested that we filled out all the forms correctly which we did. We both finished filling in all the forms and received our temporary repairman certificate and we left without showing him any documentation that we build the airplane we were applying for. He even mentioned in the future all of the process would be done online. Has anyone heard about applying for a repairman certificate this way?
 
Atanyspeed said:
He even mentioned in the future all of the process would be done online. Has anyone heard about applying for a repairman certificate this way?
Click to expand...
Along those lines, I conducted the entire process over the phone in 2004 with the Birmingham Alabama FSDO when I lived in Florida. Had to fax in a few items but never met face-to-face with anyone.
 
DanH said:
John, any indication the inspectors just don't think you built it, or didn't have enough hands-on with all build operations to qualify? Gotta admit, asking for a Repairmans Certificate in San Diego when the DAR inspection was in Missouri might reasonably be a red flag. Yes, I know your situation and the rules. I'm just curious.
Click to expand...

Well, Dan,
The original guy has changed his story several times.. as I said in the original post, last summer, he was training a new guy when I went in and even admitted that I got the one hard ***.... At first, he actually said, he didn't believe I built the plane. He maybe looked at 5 photos... as I said, I have thousands, several hundred with me in them, all date stamped over 3 years.... Apparently I made the mistake of being honest and telling the story of how Shayne had built 3 planes before and that we built this one together... he said he thought Shayne built the plane for me.....
However, it's become obvious that he just doesn't know much about experimentals and looks down on them with disgust..... I wish I had a recording of him spouting off yesterday about how awful we all are... how unsafe our planes are, and how we all fly with reckless abandon and be dammed all the rules... it was infuriating... my jaw hit the floor.
I've also just put in a complaint with the national FSDO complaint hotline.
 
Tomcat RV4 said:
Unfortunately there is no universal standard.lucky I had heard it takes a lot of time to acomplish certification without using $$$$ DAR.I am on border of THREE FSO. I started w
Albany ,NY, they sent me to Tetabouro,NY,who sent me to Long Island ,NY.They sent me to Bradley,Conn. They all suggested DARs, but gentleman from Conn could not have been more courteous, professional,or knowledgeable.Their inspection took several hours, Andrew was mainly concerned with condition of aircraft and that I was builder.Recieved AW and operation
Limitations before they left.Unfortunately weather,other commitments will prevent me from
Flying RV 4 (N9214) SER # 538 ! til spring Tom
Click to expand...

The issue the OP of this thread is having has nothing to do with his Airworthiness inspection. He is having trouble receiving his Repairman's Certificate for his aircraft which can ONLY be issued by an FSDO.

Skylor
 
Any new news

I was just reading a EAA ehotline in my email, on the 26th, and there was an article about someone having a hard time getting their Repairman Certificate and how they came though and solved the problem. I thought it might be this, but I haven't seen anything here about it.
 
Mr. Walker:

I'm one of your employees- I'm a "Fed." I was not elected or appointed, and I don't work for the FAA. Thank you for remaining civil, and trying to fix this.

I've worked in industry, the media, and academia; now, I work for you and every other citizen. I work as effectively and efficiently as I can, with guidance from elected, appointed, and other leaders. I look hard at every expense, to ensure I do the right thing, in the right way, for the right reasons. That work is a privilege, both because of its enduring value, and because of the people. Some of the best folks I've ever met -dedicated, selfless, smart, creative, and wonderful leaders - are your employees. (OTOH, I may not be too smart, since I sold off my RV-9A.)

To the original issue, I'll echo some great advice: "Take written notes. Let them see you taking written notes... Make sure the notes are as close to verbatim, quoted statements as possible..."
Those notes:
-help you thoughtfully assemble, soon after, an accurate and complete record;
-enable you to build the record of events as you saw them; and
-often, get others to change their behavior.

If I can help, as your employee or as an RV pilot, shoot me a PM.
 
Finally.....

Just now getting a chance to follow up on this. Been busy with work, work related training, putting the plane together after some maintenance, AND... flying.
So, last Tuesday, I went back into the FSDO. This was after a VERY strongly written letter from the EAA went up the food chain to the FSDO manager as well as the very high ups at the FAA in Washington.
Suffice it to say, went I went in, I met with the frontline manager. A very nice gentleman named Tom Marquez. The meeting went as I would have expected the first time. He had experience with experimentals, he even had done some AW inspections. He was inquisitive, asked the right questions and was genuinely interested in the project. Within 30 minutes, I had my temp certificate in my hand.
Once that was done, he wanted to know about my experience with "his guys". I gave him the rundown, and without trying to make excuses, he told me some stories that may have had a part in how things went down. None the less, I got the impression that Mr. Nording either had or was going to get a very thorough talking to.
It should have never come to 3 trips, 30 phone calls, 3 letters and a lot of time to get a simple repairman's cert, but it's good to know that the EAA will simply not stand for this type of treatment.
I've since called the couple builders I know here in SD and told them to call the FSDO, have an inspector come out and put a hand on your project. Once they give you a visit report, you will have NO issues once you go back in for your cert.


2z3t8qc.jpg




bhester said:
I was just reading a EAA ehotline in my email, on the 26th, and there was an article about someone having a hard time getting their Repairman Certificate and how they came though and solved the problem. I thought it might be this, but I haven't seen anything here about it.
Click to expand...

Yep... That was me.....
 
Plus 1!

A slight thread drift, but HEAR HEAR! for esco.
I am also a retired civil servant. My experience throughout my career is that civil servants execute their job with conscientious attention to using tax payer's money well, perform their duties as expected, and deserve respect and thanks. I see on this forum occasionally disparaging comments about "pay-to-play" and other corruption that is unsupported by evidence and way out of line.

I'm pleased that this issue finally had a good outcome, not the least of which is that a light got shown on a 'bad apple' and hopefully that person will get an attitude adjustment. The thousands of civil servants that serve all the people of the country to provide services and activities that are important to our society deserve your respect.

Thank you -- end of rant.
esco said:
Mr. Walker:

I'm one of your employees- I'm a "Fed." I was not elected or appointed, and I don't work for the FAA. Thank you for remaining civil, and trying to fix this.

I've worked in industry, the media, and academia; now, I work for you and every other citizen. I work as effectively and efficiently as I can, with guidance from elected, appointed, and other leaders. I look hard at every expense, to ensure I do the right thing, in the right way, for the right reasons. That work is a privilege, both because of its enduring value, and because of the people. Some of the best folks I've ever met -dedicated, selfless, smart, creative, and wonderful leaders - are your employees. (OTOH, I may not be too smart, since I sold off my RV-9A.)

To the original issue, I'll echo some great advice: "Take written notes. Let them see you taking written notes... Make sure the notes are as close to verbatim, quoted statements as possible..."
Those notes:
-help you thoughtfully assemble, soon after, an accurate and complete record;
-enable you to build the record of events as you saw them; and
-often, get others to change their behavior.

If I can help, as your employee or as an RV pilot, shoot me a PM.
Click to expand...
 
Visits

Bluelabel said:
.......
I've since called the couple builders I know here in SD and told them to call the FSDO, have an inspector come out and put a hand on your project. Once they give you a visit report, you will have NO issues once you go back in for your cert.

.....
Click to expand...

In general, will a FSDO inspector come out for just a general visit?

I would have thought that went out with the "no pre-cover inspections" initiated many years ago.


PS, I've had a few dealing with the Scottsdale FSDO, and recently with the Phoenix FAA Airports section over our Airpark Master Record, and have found them to be most responsive and helpful. A follow-up email with a simple thank-you is always a nice touch to show you appreciate their help.
 
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az_gila said:
In general, will a FSDO inspector come out for just a general visit?

I would have thought that went out with the "no pre-cover inspections" initiated many years ago.
Click to expand...

The first item on the checklist for requirements is, "The inspector has first hand knowledge of the build".

I told the manager, that my father-in-law, Shayne, had called Kansas City to get an inspection on one of his planes, so he didn't have to fork out the $$ to the DAR... The guy in Kansas city, said that type of stuff, 3 hours away, was very very far down the totem pole.

Tom said that if anyone in all of San Diego County, and surrounding areas calls the SD FSDO, they HAVE to go out....
 
az_gila said:
PS, I've had a few dealing with the Scottsdale FSDO, and recently with the Phoenix FAA Airports section over our Airpark Master Record, and have found them to be most responsive and helpful. A follow-up email with a simple thank-you is always a nice touch to show you appreciate their help.
Click to expand...

I have to interface with the FAA through FSDO's and MIDO's on a regular basis.
I have always had good experiences.

It is true that there are a few people in the agency that let personal opinion and/or ego come into play, but I think it is far more rare than we might be led to believe.

I agree that follow-up afterwards is a good way to re-enforce good service.
A great way to do that is use the reporting system that the FAA already has in place.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/stakeholder_feedback/afs/field/sf_fsdo/

I don't know for sure, but I imagine that use of this system makes your response seen at a lot of management levels.

I use this often to provide positive feed back for good service I get.
Would be appropriate to use for bad experiences also.
 
bhester said:
I was just reading a EAA ehotline in my email, on the 26th, and there was an article about someone having a hard time getting their Repairman Certificate and how they came though and solved the problem. I thought it might be this, but I haven't seen anything here about it.
Click to expand...

Bluelabel said:
....Yep... That was me.....
Click to expand...

Well, I've been out of EAA since a bad experience at a late '90's Oshkosh. Thanks to this thread, I'm going to rejoin.

Edit - and after I finished looking at VAF, I did just that.

Dave
EAA 22,890
RV-3B, now building the fuselage.
 
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Moderator, Suggestion to amend the title of this thread with : " Resolved"

[Done; S. Buchanan]

Thanks Sam! It makes that title less ugly.
 
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krw5927 said:
Find a different FSDO inspector or better yet a different FSDO. Perhaps the one responsible for the geographic area in which your Phase 1 was completed.

lots of luck! we have this idiot inspectors brother in rochester ny. so i moved my plane to albany ny. when they look at the papers and see your home address is in rochesters area i had to go back to rochester. and for gods sake, and yours, dont go to the idiots boss!!! they are like a band of brothers!!!
Click to expand...
 
New York FSDO

Many years ago I had a wonderful relationship with both Albany and Rochester FSDO. Unfortunately the people I knew then are long gone.
I once trucked an airplane into the Rochester jurisdiction to meet an inspector who would be at a certain airport on a certain day. I assembled the airplane over Labor day weekend and he signed it off the next day.
I took my first ever 135 checkride with the then manager of Rochester FSDO who had the reputation of being the biggest hard *** in the Northeast. he gave me an incomplete, I came back a few days later and passed. A real good guy.
Unfortunately those days are long gone. Still some good people but way too many bottom feeders.
 
CMH FSDO

I've said this before, but the CMH FSDO is very EAB friendly.

They don't do pre-inspections, but they highly encourage participation with an EAA Tech Counselor.

While I wouldn't say the do a complete air worthiness inspection, it's certainly more than just a paperwork shuffle.

The FAASTeam also works closely with the EAB community as well. They present at the local EAA meetings. In the past six months they did a presentation on "How to certify an EAB aircraft". The also highlighted things that they see that could be improved while inspecting aircraft. They facilitated a meeting last month on "Owner Maintenance". While not direct EAB related, the information is still pertinent for EAB aircraft. After the presentation they held a hands on workshop for folks to learn how to safety wire and install cotter pins.

It's unfortunate that not all FSDO offices is like ours. They aren't just Feds that show up for inspections, they are active members of the community.

bob
 
I spent my entire 36-year career in controls and instrumentation engineering working for on-site contractors at government testing facilities, and the civil servants I worked with ran the gamut from geniuses to complete idiots, from close friends to people who I couldn't stand the sight of... same as you might run across in the general population. The civil service does seem to be more tolerant of gross buffoonery than commercial employers, maybe concentrating the low end of food chain somewhat. Even with the idiots, you soon learn what to expect, and how to work around them.

I consider myself extremely fortunate to have three personal friends in the East Michigan FSDO, two of which hangar their personal GA airplanes here at 45G; and one of those lives across the runway from me. I haven't even ordered my finish kit yet, so I'm a ways from needing their services, but when I do I don't expect I'll have any difficulty convincing them I built the airplane.
 
Came across this little bit in this months Sport's Aviation Magazine from EAA. Can only assume it has to do with this.

 
Shamelessly plagiarized from another forum:

"Most of us have heard of how different FSDOs have different rules about modifications, etc. One will accept something as a minor change, the next requires you to jump through expensive hoops.

Now, under a process initiated back in 2012, via order 8000.70, the FAA has created the Regulatory Consistency Communication Board to deal with the problem of inconsistencies within the Flight Standards Service (AFS) and the Aircraft Certification Service (AIR).

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/FAA_Order_8000.70.pdf

"The purpose of the Regulatory Consistency Communication Board (RCCB) is to provide an avenue for internal and external stakeholders to raise issues of policy or regulatory inconsistency," the FAA explains.

That link explains what the RCCB is about and how to submit an issue for the the Board to examine.

You can submit an issue (anonymously, if you prefer) via the form here:

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/faa_regulations/rccb/

You'll want to consult the document in that first link before you submit."

:eek:
 
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