VansAirForceForums  
Home > VansAirForceForums

- POSTING RULES
- Donate yearly (please).
- Advertise in here!

- Today's Posts | Insert Pics


Go Back   VAF Forums > Model Specific > RV-12/RV-12iS
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #21  
Old 02-14-2019, 12:03 PM
JwWright57 JwWright57 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 128
Default

Besides maintenance costs there is a usability factor to consider. The Rv-12is is almost car simple, no mixture control (and Fi on on 12is) so no carbs to worry about, just go fly. And the biggest thing for me is that you can build one by yourself (don't really need a second bucking bar buddy) and really quick. I was going the 9 route but figured I could build a 12 years quicker. :-) I can go along way in the year/year and a half while a 9 builder is still pounding rivets.
__________________
-----------------------------------------
Jeff Wright, Charlotte NC
Rv-12 started!
Tail 99% done
Wings 99% done
12IS fuse kit 99% done
Finish kit coming in a few weeks
Dues paid 2019
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 02-14-2019, 12:12 PM
NinerBikes NinerBikes is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Granada Hills
Posts: 156
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruceh View Post
Here is my experience with 640+ hours so far on my RV-9A with a Lycoming IO-320.

My fuel cost per hour over the last 5 years (tracked in a spreadsheet, since I'm a computer geek) has been $26.75. I use around 6 gallons per hour of 100LL in my flying. Never tried autogas, since everything in California has ethanol.

I do an oil and filter change 4 times a year. This costs me about $300 per year, includes getting the oil analyzed.

The only other "maintenance" costs I've incurred have been tires and brakes.
At various times for annuals I have replaced little things like the crank seal on the engine (finally got it to stop leaking oil), touched up paint, and done some electronic upgrades (fix flakey EGT probes, replace the ELT battery, new 2020 GPS, knob panel for the Dynon Skyview). The P-mags use automotive spark plugs and that costs me $24 per annual to replace all 8 of them.

This year my annual is coming up on 5 years, so I will be taking a look at possibly replacing my alternator belt. I think the hoses are good for longer than 5 years.

So I'm 1/3 of the way to TBO, and hopefully this trend will continue. When it comes time to overhaul, I may just swap an IO-360 in her.
Bruce, which 9-A was yours at Copper State Fly Inn? N938BL and I were there on Friday in a RV-12. I saw several of them there, one a newly completed 9-A all painted up in yellow, for sale, 50 hrs on it, all steam gauges.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 02-14-2019, 12:40 PM
scottmillhouse's Avatar
scottmillhouse scottmillhouse is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Madison, AL
Posts: 300
Default Built and flew both

My opinion: Built a 9A and flew it 536 hours and now about 350 hours for a 12. I'd say if you can do it all yourself, maintenance costs are probably slightly less for the Lycoming. Everything costs more for the Rotax than it should since you can only buy from Rotax. As an example the float issue is ridiculous at $80 per float with four required.

Fuel burn is less and you can use auto gas but appropriate alcohol free fuel is almost the price of avgas and you have to buy avgas on x-countries. If you use the same fuel than economy is about the same. The 12 uses about 30% less fuel in cruise than a Lycoming but it is about 30% slower. I had to sell my 9 due to medical issues and switch to LSA until I got a special issuance. Now I'm finishing up on a new 7A. Once you had a traditional RV, a LSA just is not the same.

So visibility and entry + to the RV-12. Probably the best LSA you can get, but it is a LSA. Speed, climb performance, baggage and people capacity and a constant speed prop to the Lycoming powered RVs. Slight differences in maintenance and fuel cost an hour for your dream should not be an issue when you are already investing in the vicinity of $100k or more for a new bird.
__________________
Scott- 2019 dues paid
New RV-7A N579RV first flight 6/2019, now in phase I
RV-12 N319RV, 328 hours pending sale
Purchased RV-12 sold, RV-9A, 536 hours sold, RV-7 sold, Kitfox sold
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 02-14-2019, 01:21 PM
DaleB's Avatar
DaleB DaleB is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Omaha, NE (KMLE)
Posts: 2,092
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by scottmillhouse View Post
Probably the best LSA you can get, but it is a LSA. Speed, climb performance, baggage and people capacity and a constant speed prop to the Lycoming powered RVs. Slight differences in maintenance and fuel cost an hour for your dream should not be an issue when you are already investing in the vicinity of $100k or more for a new bird.
^^^^^^^^^^
Yeah, that. If you are limited to LSA, then the RV-12 is, in my humble opinion, absolutely the way to go. If I could legally fly a 7 or a 9, I would be doing so. No question, hands down, period. Just to be flying 30-40-50 knots faster and making fewer fuel stops on cross country trips. Maintenance cost may be a little higher, may be a little lower, but the -12 is so much different from the others that the slight difference is not enough to be anything even remotely close to a deciding factor.
__________________
Dale

Omaha, NE
RV-12 # 222 N980KM "Screamin' Canary" (bought flying)
Fisher Celebrity (under construction)
Previous RV-7 project (sold)
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 02-14-2019, 02:54 PM
scottmillhouse's Avatar
scottmillhouse scottmillhouse is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Madison, AL
Posts: 300
Default

Not sure I agree with the comment on the Rotax being car simple. It has it's own unique issues. The Lycoming is 1950s simple. If run frequently you have only 500 hours maintenance on mags and plugs and you may have some valve issues to deal with around TBO. Generally that is about it and over 50 year old engines are still being rebuilt multiple times.

The Rotax is a great little engine but it is maintenance intensive compared to a modern car. The ULS has carb issues that are problematic, besides floats sinking every few hundred hours you need a rebuild at 500 hours and a carb syn at least every annual, fuel pump issues, gearbox maintenance, hose replacement, lead buildup when using avgas and it you blow any electronics it could cost thousands and lots of down time to get parts. A plus is spark plugs are dirt cheap and it only holds 3 quarts of oil (but oil is $10 a quart). The fuel injected engine eliminates the carb issues but at a price.

On the plane construction the 12 is so simple to assemble by yourself that you will be flying and enjoying a RV years quicker. RV-9A slow build took me 7 years and 2500 hours, the 12, 15 months and 1000 hours. Looks like the 7A Quick build plus will be about 18 months and 1400 hours but I'm now retired.

Once to altitude the 12 is just as much fun to fly as a 9 and maybe more in quick maneuvers with it's helicopter like visibility. Same crisp handling and response. I'd say roll and stick responsiveness is identical.
__________________
Scott- 2019 dues paid
New RV-7A N579RV first flight 6/2019, now in phase I
RV-12 N319RV, 328 hours pending sale
Purchased RV-12 sold, RV-9A, 536 hours sold, RV-7 sold, Kitfox sold
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 02-14-2019, 03:11 PM
romaja romaja is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Vancouver, Washington
Posts: 35
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by airguy View Post
Yep, you said it. I am burning autofuel as well, and you can't do this in a 12. Midland, TX to Hot Springs, AR in 2:38 last weekend.

Impressive economy/MPG's!

I have been burning autogas in my Rotax 912 and have been loving the economy. Also, no lead buildup and can go longer between oil changes (50 hours instead of 25).

Jim
__________________
_________________
Jim
Rans S20 Raven Sold Built in 2016
Vancouver, Washington
ATP, CFI, CFII, MEI
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 02-14-2019, 03:23 PM
DaleB's Avatar
DaleB DaleB is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Omaha, NE (KMLE)
Posts: 2,092
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by romaja View Post
Impressive economy/MPG's!

I have been burning autogas in my Rotax 912 and have been loving the economy. Also, no lead buildup and can go longer between oil changes (50 hours instead of 25).

Jim
Read the manuals again...

No avgas == 100 hours
30% or more avgas == 50 hours
Over 50% avgas == 25 hours

The SI is less than clear about this, but the maintenance manual clearly shows an oil & filter change as a 100 hour item. Asked about it at the big Rotax tent in Oshkosh a couple of years ago, and they confirmed... for a 912ULS running mogas, it's 100 hours. Of course like with any other engine, if you change it more often than that you're not going to hurt anything.
__________________
Dale

Omaha, NE
RV-12 # 222 N980KM "Screamin' Canary" (bought flying)
Fisher Celebrity (under construction)
Previous RV-7 project (sold)
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 02-14-2019, 03:33 PM
Piper J3's Avatar
Piper J3 Piper J3 is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Hinckley, Ohio
Posts: 1,459
Default

Three liters per oil change and almost zero replenishment in 100 hours.

Try not adding oil to a Lycoming...
__________________
-
Jim Stricker
Hinckley, Ohio (1OA2)
EAA #499867
PPL/ASEL 1970 - Sport Pilot since 2007
80 hrs Flying Aeronca Chief 11AC N86203
1130 hrs Flying 46 Piper J-3 Cub N6841H
RV-12 E-LSA #120058 AWC July 2012 N633CM
RV-12 Bought Flying Oct 2015 with 48TT - Hobbs now 479

LSRM-A Certificate 2016
Special Thanks... EJ Trucks - Crew Chief A-4 Skyhawk
MJ Stricker (Father & CFI) - 1st Lt. Captain B-17H
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 02-14-2019, 04:07 PM
romaja romaja is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Vancouver, Washington
Posts: 35
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaleB View Post
Read the manuals again...

No avgas == 100 hours
30% or more avgas == 50 hours
Over 50% avgas == 25 hours

The SI is less than clear about this, but the maintenance manual clearly shows an oil & filter change as a 100 hour item. Asked about it at the big Rotax tent in Oshkosh a couple of years ago, and they confirmed... for a 912ULS running mogas, it's 100 hours. Of course like with any other engine, if you change it more often than that you're not going to hurt anything.
Read the manual?. I have read the manual. Specifically, The maintenance manual under maintenance schedule. Page 17 chapter 05-20-00 states that oil changes should be conducted every 50 hours with a note that reads: Use of leaded fuel more than 30% of operation oil changes are conducted at 25 hour intervals.

I have seen nothing that shows 100 hour intervals as you have stated above. If you could provide a reference in a Rotax publication other than what you heard in "the big Rotax tent at Oshkosh a couple of years ago" than I would be happy to look at it.

Jim
__________________
_________________
Jim
Rans S20 Raven Sold Built in 2016
Vancouver, Washington
ATP, CFI, CFII, MEI

Last edited by romaja : 02-14-2019 at 04:35 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 02-14-2019, 04:41 PM
DaleB's Avatar
DaleB DaleB is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Omaha, NE (KMLE)
Posts: 2,092
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by romaja View Post
I have seen nothing that shows 100 hour intervals as you have stated above. If you could provide a reference in a Rotax publication other than what you heard in "the big Rotax tent at Oshkosh" than I would be interested.
Sure thing, Jim.

Line maintenance manual, 05-20-00, P. 3, "Notes": [quote]This maintenance schedule contains a column for a 50 hr. check. This check is recommended by the manufacturer but not essential, with the exception of oil change when operating with leaded AVGAS (emphasis mine).

Line maintenance manual, 05-20-00, PP. 16-17, "Oil Change": Note that it's a 100 hour item. All line items for task 15 (Oil change) that are marked "every 50 hr." carry the note (1). For that note, refer to P. 12: "Leaded fuel more than 30% of operation". That note is also reproduced in the second line item for checking and cleaning the oil tank. Again, a 200 hour item unless you're burning leaded gas more than 30% of the time, then it's a 100 hour item.

I didn't just overhear something random in the Rotax tent and draw a conclusion from it. I read the Line Maintenance Manual, then referred to the later Service Instructions regarding more frequent oil changes when using leaded gas. What I understood those documents to say was not what I had heard from other RV-12 owners -- in other words, unofficial sources of varying and suspect expertise. I had a specific question, I asked a Rotax factory rep and got a very unambiguous answer. If you thoroughly read the manual, I believe you will see what I'm talking about. If not, then by all means don't let me discourage you from changing your oil as often as you please.
__________________
Dale

Omaha, NE
RV-12 # 222 N980KM "Screamin' Canary" (bought flying)
Fisher Celebrity (under construction)
Previous RV-7 project (sold)
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:52 AM.


The VAFForums come to you courtesy Delta Romeo, LLC. By viewing and participating in them you agree to build your plane using standardized methods and practices and to fly it safely and in accordance with the laws governing the country you are located in.