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  #11  
Old 03-14-2019, 06:52 AM
joe gremlin joe gremlin is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southwest Michigan
Posts: 106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mich48041 View Post
If you intend to register as E-AB, you must prove that the aircraft was 51 percent built by an amateur. Can you do that?
The ad says he has all records of build. Looks like the same guy is also selling a flying -9. I'm guessing he built that as well.
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  #12  
Old 03-14-2019, 07:04 AM
joe gremlin joe gremlin is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southwest Michigan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rongawer View Post
my advice ...is that if you want to build a -9, then just do that.
Good advice no doubt. My thought with this stems from a comment my wife made right after I took a demo flight at Vans last year.

She said 'I know you. You're not going to build an airplane. You're going to build two. You build everything twice. The first one always turns out great, but not as good as you thought it should be, so you take it apart or sell it or throw it out and then you build a second one that you like better.'

The thing is, she's right. I tend to never be satisfied with the projects I learned to build as I was building them.

I'm all for just buying a tail kit and starting. Pretty active EAA chapter here so I'm sure I'd have access to lots of advice and guidance. But starting with an unfinished project that we intend to get flying and sell just to get the experience of finishing a project before doing the 'forever' plane is something we've talked about.
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  #13  
Old 03-15-2019, 06:31 AM
BigJohn BigJohn is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Gloversville, NY
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My first thought: if the builder has procured a used 912 for this project then his plan was to go EAB and not necessarily follow the plans. Then what other modifications have been made as the work on the completed sections has been done?
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John Peck, CFII, A&P, EAA Tech Counselor, Flight Advisor.
“Master Pilot” Award, UFO Member.
RV-12 N37JP 120176 Flying since 2012.
One Week Wonder Build Team, OSH 2018.
VAF paid through 10/2019.
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  #14  
Old 03-15-2019, 09:16 AM
rongawer rongawer is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Brentwood, CA
Posts: 394
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joe gremlin View Post
Good advice no doubt. My thought with this stems from a comment my wife made right after I took a demo flight at Vans last year.

She said 'I know you. You're not going to build an airplane. You're going to build two. You build everything twice. The first one always turns out great, but not as good as you thought it should be, so you take it apart or sell it or throw it out and then you build a second one that you like better.'

The thing is, she's right. I tend to never be satisfied with the projects I learned to build as I was building them.

I'm all for just buying a tail kit and starting. Pretty active EAA chapter here so I'm sure I'd have access to lots of advice and guidance. But starting with an unfinished project that we intend to get flying and sell just to get the experience of finishing a project before doing the 'forever' plane is something we've talked about.
I’m with you on this Joe. My wife just hugs me and says “it’s ok sweetheart, I understand”, like I have a disease or something . I’m currently building my fourth airplane, an RV10 and I’m wildly thinking this will be my last. There’s an old adage that says to “buy your last airplane first”, but the problem with that, and building airplanes, is that the journey always provides new experiences and new perspectives on what your last airplane will be. I could have saved a fortune skipping the several certified airplanes I’ve owned and many thousands of hours building the last three airplanes and going straight to the -10, but then I would have missed out on all of the memories made, joy of accomplishment and learning that came of it as well.

I definitely would not be dissuaded by having to go the E-AB route with an RV12 (a bit of rhetorical statement at this point for me), as the point should be to learn and have recreation, not concerns over the mythical resale value.

To the OP: I fly my RV12 almost every day and thoroughly enjoy it, but if you think you want an RV-9, then forget about the 12 and just get going on a -9. It’s unlikely that you’ll make money on the deal and life’s way too short.
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- RV10, N1530G (reserved). Build in progress.
- RV12, N975G, "The Commuter"
- Several others that are now just great memories for me.

Last edited by rongawer : 03-15-2019 at 09:23 AM. Reason: stupid autocorrect...
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  #15  
Old 03-15-2019, 11:16 AM
NinerBikes NinerBikes is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Granada Hills
Posts: 99
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I've looked at a couple RV-12's partially built, asking prices 24.5k to 25k. They still need avionics, $14,850, ADS-B 2020 antenna $600, $30000 for engine and FWF kit, DAR inspection, probably $650 to 800. Plus trailer, driving, getting it down here, are you going to build in your garage or rent a hangar to build it in?

I see lots of earlier RV-12's for sale with the Dynan D-180's in them, still for sale. New EFIS glass, wiring and installation will set you back how much more?
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  #16  
Old 03-15-2019, 01:00 PM
joe gremlin joe gremlin is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southwest Michigan
Posts: 106
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I knew this was a bad idea when I thought of it. And yet I'm still thinking about it.

Still think I'd want to complete it as an LSA if possible. Assuming what's been completed so far is compliant, that would mean selling the included motor and then just getting the full engine kit from Vans. More expensive but we'd end up with a factory new zero time airplane.

Still seems like a bad idea but I might go look at it this weekend. I gotta stay off Craigslist.
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  #17  
Old 03-15-2019, 03:33 PM
rvbuilder2002 rvbuilder2002 is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Hubbard Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joe gremlin View Post
I knew this was a bad idea when I thought of it. And yet I'm still thinking about it.

Still think I'd want to complete it as an LSA if possible. Assuming what's been completed so far is compliant, that would mean selling the included motor and then just getting the full engine kit from Vans. More expensive but we'd end up with a factory new zero time airplane.

Still seems like a bad idea but I might go look at it this weekend. I gotta stay off Craigslist.
In case you aren't aware, a kit built RV-12 doesn't have to be certified as an E-LSA to be flow by a Sport Pilot. If it is an experimental amateur built, it just needs to meet all of the requirements of an LSA. So as long as it is not built in such a way that would put it outside of those requirements (with a constant speed prop for example) it can still be flow by a Sport Pilot.
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  #18  
Old 03-15-2019, 05:23 PM
joe gremlin joe gremlin is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southwest Michigan
Posts: 106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rvbuilder2002 View Post
In case you aren't aware, a kit built RV-12 doesn't have to be certified as an E-LSA to be flow by a Sport Pilot. If it is an experimental amateur built, it just needs to meet all of the requirements of an LSA. So as long as it is not built in such a way that would put it outside of those requirements (with a constant speed prop for example) it can still be flow by a Sport Pilot.
Good to know. So the only difference then would be whether or not a future owner would need an A&P to do the condition inspection?
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  #19  
Old 03-15-2019, 05:41 PM
rvbuilder2002 rvbuilder2002 is offline
 
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Location: Hubbard Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joe gremlin View Post
Good to know. So the only difference then would be whether or not a future owner would need an A&P to do the condition inspection?
Yes, but maybe even whether the new owner that completes the build could.


Eligibility for the repairman's certificate for an experimental amateur built is at the discretion of the person issuing it. They need to be convinced that the applicant constructed enough of the aircraft to be sufficiently familiar with it to do a proper condition inspection.

Note, this is an entirely separate issue from whether a particular airplane is eligible for an experimental amateur built certificate. In that context, the major portion has to have been built by amateurs for their own education and recreation. It can have been 10 different owner/builders over the course of the project, but it would still be eligible for the certificate. The final builder may not be eligible for the repairmans certificate though, because most of the construction was done by the nine previous owners.


In the case of this airplane you have described, I don't know enough details to offer an opinion but it doesn't really matter since it is the opinion of the person issuing the certificate that counts.

This is why there is another benefit to E-LSA. There is no requirement that amateurs build it. It fact it is perfectly legal to purchase a kit and then hire a professional to build one for you (though having Van's build you an S-LSA version would likely make more sense). Or if you purchase a partially built one that was being built with the intent to certify as E-LSA, it doesn't matter who did the work, or how much they did, you will still have a clear path to E-LSA certification and getting the light sport repairman inspector certificate.
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RV-6A (aka "Junkyard Special ")
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  #20  
Old 03-16-2019, 10:12 AM
NinerBikes NinerBikes is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Granada Hills
Posts: 99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joe gremlin View Post
I took a peek at Craigslist and found an RV12 project for sale near me. Looks like the tail, wings and fuselage are complete or nearly so and it includes a low time rotax. The asking price is $20k. The ad doesn't have much info beyond that. No idea what model rotax, I assume a 912 of some sort but that's an assumption.

It'll need a finish kit, avionics, firewall forward less engine and paint or some kind of vinyl wrap to get it flying. What's a good guess for dirt cheap cost on all that?

A -9 is what I really want to build, but I'm wondering if getting a -12 built, flying and sold would be good practice before starting a -9 from scratch. Obviously I wouldn't want to do that unless I stood a reasonable chance of selling it for what I had in it if not a bit more.
If you have an abundance of time, build the RV-12, then the 9. I don't really see value of labor added being reflected too much in selling prices. As in it's probably a labor of love. In looking at used RV-12's for sale since Oct of 2017, there's planes built by AP's, or what look like professional builders, that, due to price, are not moving very fast. I've seen a few 3 and 4 year old low hour 40 to 120 hrs, loaded with 10" skyview touch, paint, 2 axis auto pilot, where the builder, most who I've conversed with, want to get out of the plane what they paid for it. ELSA stuff at $80 to $90.000. I saw a few of the first RV-12 IS planes completed, for sale at close to 100k asking price. The RV-12 IS planes seemed to sell rather quickly in December and January.
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