RV-8 No Flaps Landing

Today I went out and shot 3 no flap approaches and landings to full stop. To say the least, compared to using 40 flaps, it is dicey, like more work.

Final target airspeed was 70 knots but it was difficult to maintain, especially if turning in at 80 and high relative to slot. If above the slot (using VASI) forget it, the airplane will not slow to 70. Best technique was to turn final low and at 70 knots and add power if needed.

Each touch down was estimated to be 60 knots. My machine stalls at 56 clean, was near it holding it off trying to find the runway. Distance down the runway varied with approach speed. Longest roll out was about 2000'. Once on the concrete the machine was much more sensitive than with 40 flaps, I had my hands and feet busy keeping it straight, even after tail wheel down and at full aft stick. The aircraft does not decelerate like with the flaps so the work load time envelope is longer than usual keeping it straight.

All landings were full stop.

On the 4th landing went to 40 flaps. What a difference, control was ok but getting it slowed to tail down and back wheel steering came much quicker. The whole operation was easier.

Retracting flaps on roll out? I don't do it. Probably a hold over from flying retractable gear airplanes, don't be moving anything until the clear of runway. Also, retracting flaps will decrease drag and increase roll out and or require more braking.

Just my 2 cents worth and it may not be worth that much....I do enjoy flying the RV-8.

David-aviator said:

Retracting flaps on roll out? I don't do it. Probably a hold over from flying retractable gear airplanes, don't be moving anything until the clear of runway. Also, retracting flaps will decrease drag and increase roll out and or require more braking.

Just my 2 cents worth and it may not be worth that much....I do enjoy flying the RV-8.

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Thanks David.

Raising the flaps when the wheels touched is an auto response I developed when I first got my 8 and was trying only for three pointers. Never did sort three pointers out but I got really good at go-a-rounds.

Thats when I came across your earlier thread: "RV-8 wheel landing...."

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=114600

BTW, thanks for that thread. That one should be a sticky.

There's always more to learn so keep them coming.

I will give your technique a conscious try and measure the results for my roll-out, flaps down. No doubt it will be shorter due to increased drag.

David-aviator said:

Retracting flaps on roll out? I don't do it. Probably a hold over from flying retractable gear airplanes, don't be moving anything until the clear of runway. Also, retracting flaps will decrease drag and increase roll out and or require more braking.

Just my 2 cents worth and it may not be worth that much....I do enjoy flying the RV-8.

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Retracting flaps immediately after touch-down and pinning the tailwheel to the ground will put more weight on the wheels and allow you to brake harder if performing a short field landing. This is especially the case when landing on turf.

Maintaining 70 kts on final without flaps (not sure why you would want to land no-flaps unless they failed to extend) is possible but requires considerable proficiency at controlling airspeed, probably to a higher degree than many pilots can do comfortably and it will result in large sink rate. It takes a lot of discipline to pull the nose up to an angle that we are unaccustomed to seeing, and airspeed will decay very quickly if this technique is not perfected.

Much easier, and safer, to use flaps.

Glad you are enjoying your -8!

I think this kind of thing is great exercise of piloting skills. It makes you make adjustments to the way you control the airplane based on what it is telling you. Gets you out of the old habits. I would like to be flying several different types of aircraft, but that not being available, changing the game with the one we fly all the time is the best thing we have available.

During my BFR several months ago, I did several no flap landings. I had not done any since Phase 1 some 300 hours ago. It was an eye opener and something worth practicing. Much different than my usual full flap landing in the RV 8. You never know when flaps won't be there for you. Thanks for the reminder David.

Sam Buchanan said:

Retracting flaps immediately after touch-down and pinning the tailwheel to the ground will put more weight on the wheels and allow you to brake harder if performing a short field landing. This is especially the case when landing on turf.

Maintaining 70 kts on final without flaps (not sure why you would want to land no-flaps unless they failed to extend) is possible but requires considerable proficiency at controlling airspeed, probably to a higher degree than many pilots can do comfortably and it will result in large sink rate. It takes a lot of discipline to pull the nose up to an angle that we are unaccustomed to seeing, and airspeed will decay very quickly if this technique is not perfected.

Much easier, and safer, to use flaps.

Glad you are enjoying your -8!

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Not normal procedure here, Sam. Just a drill.

One of the guys suggested doing it now and then was good idea for proficiency since flap motors due fail.

He was right, it is a good idea. It is a totally different experience landing this tail dragger without flaps. With 40 flaps the 8 is a docile creature, without flaps it is not.

Interesting observation to me as I will often adjust my use of flaps based on winds at my strip. I generally use full flaps but have a bunch of examples of using half and zero on both the -8 and Rocket and aside from stall speed margin I cant recall any real difference between any flap settings. I'll have to pay more attention next time, I guess.

nice thread

Once in 10 years, my flaps did not/would not come down. The old grease in the brushes deal. I was fairly new to the 8 at the time, but I was glad I did practice my no flap landings a good deal during phase 1. I flew Army helicopters, and always felt "if it can break-it probably will". Those with electric flaps should be prepared. On the raise after landing, I gave that up after realizing how long it took for them to come up. Manual flaps are really different in a lot of respects.

enjoy and practice!

My first RV8 landing was no flaps. Had a setting wrong in the VPX and they wouldn't go down. It was not a real issue and years later I often land no flaps just for the fun. I suspect it would be a bigger issue with a fixed pitch, but constant speed it's no issue.

ColoRv said:

My first RV8 landing was no flaps. Had a setting wrong in the VPX and they wouldn't go down. It was not a real issue and years later I often land no flaps just for the fun. I suspect it would be a bigger issue with a fixed pitch, but constant speed it's no issue.

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You hit the nail on the head Bill.

The issue is FP prop. The machine does not want to quit flying without flaps.

Thanks for making that observation, I should have thought about it and not made such a fuss over it.

The vast majority of my many hundreds of landings and T&Gs on my 6A have been with no flap with maybe 10% with half and maybe 2% with full flap. I am generally landing on runways over 2500 feet long.

No flap landings present no issues with this much runway even if you're a bit fast over the threshold. If you do it enough, it becomes the norm. I have to be more aware of the handling differences on the rare occasions I use full flap!

I use no flap for most approaches simply because I feel it's safer if I lose the engine at 200 feet and full flap, it's likely to be bad news as the sink rate would become massive, rather quickly with no time to do much about it.

If I want to make the first intersection or I've really botched the approach and am way too high or I'm asked to slow up behind a 172, I'll use full flaps.

I much prefer how the aircraft handles in pitch with zero or half flaps.

I don't touch my prop pitch on final but I suspect the Subaru with the geared engine produces a bit less residual thrust than a Lycoming at flight idle.

I aim for 70-75 knots on long final depending on gusts and about 65 over the button, aiming to touch down about 500 feet down the runway. This gives me some manageable energy to salvage a landing on the asphalt if the engine happened to stop.