What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Backup Instruments - Altimeter Choice

aparchment

Well Known Member
Hello all:

I am trying to choose a 2.25" backup altimeter for my IFR panel. I have an AFS3500EE as my PFD, but if something catastrophic happens to it I need the primaries. I am set on the attitude indicator and airspeed indicator, but not the altimeter.

Does anyone have recommendations for a 2.25" altimeter that would be of sufficient quality and accuracy for IFR flight? Now is there any chance that instrument is reasonably priced?

Thanks all.
 
I have a UMA 2.25 single pointer as a back-up. One of the local shops said they wouldn't pass a pitot-static IFR check as all altimeters in view of teh pilot need to pass, and there's no way that UMA would pass. That said, UMA is reportedly coming out with a sensitive three-pointer soon, which I'll swap out with the one I have. Rumor has it that it will be about $600.
 
Hello all:

I am trying to choose a 2.25" backup altimeter for my IFR panel. I have an AFS3500EE as my PFD, but if something catastrophic happens to it I need the primaries. I am set on the attitude indicator and airspeed indicator, but not the altimeter.

Does anyone have recommendations for a 2.25" altimeter that would be of sufficient quality and accuracy for IFR flight? Now is there any chance that instrument is reasonably priced?

Thanks all.

Most of the EFIS equipped IFR RVs I have seen with 2.25 back-up steam guages have the UMA single pointer model altimeter. This is no doubt solely due to the fact that it is so cheap.

However in my opinion the single pointer UMA is completely useless as an IFR back-up. You cannot fly an IFR approach with this instrument to the minima because it is simply not accurate enough.....nowhere NEAR accurate enough!!!

It's probably not even accurate enough to maintain an IFR cruise altitude in controlled airspace within prescribed tolerances.

At the moment that leaves the Winter which is pricey but is the cheapest unit that will do the job.
 
Last edited:
I installed the wynter. $$ but very nicely made. Haven't had it certified yet but don't expect a problem.
 
Good stuff

This is useful info guys.

Mike I knew about the Winter from your post on our other forum, but wanted something a little easier to read.

The Mid Continent instrument looks great, but I don't want to spend several thousand dollars on this piece. At that rate I would just go with dual EFISs.

Since I have a little time on this (just laying out the panel now), I will wait and see if UMA comes out with a sensitive 3 pointer by the time I need it.

My only other options are to go with the larger instruments as backup, or switch over to a dual EFIS setup. On this latter idea the GRTs look like great equipment. I have also been really impressed with the Czech company TL Electronic (see http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/integra6524.php), but I haven't heard any feedback on them.
 
I wonder if...

I have a UMA 2.25 single pointer as a back-up. One of the local shops said they wouldn't pass a pitot-static IFR check as all altimeters in view of teh pilot need to pass, and there's no way that UMA would pass. That said, UMA is reportedly coming out with a sensitive three-pointer soon, which I'll swap out with the one I have. Rumor has it that it will be about $600.

...the shop would accept a "Back-up Altimeter for VFR use only" placard?

This is the accepted application by the FAA for IFR vs VFR GPS installations...:)
 
not the intent though

Thanks Gil, but my focus is to have something that could get me out of trouble in an IFR environment in which I have an EFIS failure.

...the shop would accept a "Back-up Altimeter for VFR use only" placard?

This is the accepted application by the FAA for IFR vs VFR GPS installations...:)
 
Martin:

The Infinity ALT-1 unit looks interesting. (see http://www.mglavionics.co.za/Infinitec/Infinity.html) I was concerned about how a digital display would show trend info at a glance, but the led arrow that responds to trend seems to do a nice job with that. Thanks for pointing this out.

How about this one?
http://www.mglavionics.co.za/ MGL has a 2 1/4" electronic precision altimeter/encoder for less than $300. It would need a small back-up battery.

Martin Sutter
building and flying RV's since 1988
 
Also take a look at the ASX-1. Altimeter and airspeed in one 2 1/4" insturment. I plan on using one wired to a 9 volt battery on a standby switch.

http://www.mglavionics.co.za/Infinitec/Infinity.html#IASX1
ASX-1%20small.jpg
or
ASI1%20small.jpg
and
ALT-1%20small.jpg
 
Martin:

The Infinity ALT-1 unit looks interesting. (see http://www.mglavionics.co.za/Infinitec/Infinity.html) I was concerned about how a digital display would show trend info at a glance, but the led arrow that responds to trend seems to do a nice job with that. Thanks for pointing this out.
We just installed one of these in our -4, but haven't fired it up yet. We'll be using it as a VSI and we'll use the temperature display to set our new true ASI.

Two other features I like are having density altitude at a touch of a button and I plan to add a check list item to set its altitude alerting feature to signal me when I reach the altitude I can make a safe 180 degree downwind landing in the unlikely event of an engine failure on takeoff.
 
You might be better off...

Also take a look at the ASX-1. Altimeter and airspeed in one 2 1/4" insturment. I plan on using one wired to a 9 volt battery on a standby switch.
....

...with two 9 volt batteries in series for 18 volts.

The MGL instruments are rated down to 8 volts input, and that does not give a lot of voltage margin on the small 9 volt batteries discharging at relatively high currents (45 mA), especially if they are cold.

The cheaper 9 volt ones are rated around 500 mAh, but they use 5.4 volts as a cut-off voltage on the spec sheet I checked. Two would give you a lot of safety margin and around 8-10 hrs operation. This would allow for a lot of shelf life capacity loss for only a 1.5 oz penalty...:)

Sounds like a good approach.
 
Even more basic than that

Do we even need these?

Let's just say a person built an RV-10 with a G900 system in it...and a Dynon (with battery backup) for backup. Are you crazy to even be worrying about installing analag instruments as "backups"?

If I was smart enough I'd poll it...
 
Why not include a Dynon D10A as a backup? It is powered by it's internal battery and provides all of the primary flight instruments that you need, independently of other instruments.

Granted, there is still the issue that it takes electrons to operate, but with the internal battery it should last a couple of hours if you have an electrical failure. By the time you total the prices of your backups, the D10A may be more economical.

Vern
 
Dynon Backup Doesn't Work For Me

I don't think it's that crazy to use analog instruments as backup considering thats what Cessna, Cirrus and many corp jet manufacturers do. There is presumably some method to their madness, and I am assuming that it is returning people to a base level of complexity when things go wrong.

From a personal standpoint, my concern about using the Dynon for backup is the length of time it takes to reset when it has been destabilized. Assuming a Murphy's Law scanario where something goes wrong with my PFD at the worst possible time -- like hard IFR in turbulence, I want to be in my personal comfort zone -- analog gauges -- rather than worrying about or potentially addressing the situation where my backup attitude indicator -- Dynon -- is going to blink out on me due to turbulence. That's just my personal preference. I am sure there are a bunch of people who are comfortable with the Dynon as backup, but I am not one of them.

Do we even need these?

Let's just say a person built an RV-10 with a G900 system in it...and a Dynon (with battery backup) for backup. Are you crazy to even be worrying about installing analag instruments as "backups"?

If I was smart enough I'd poll it...
 
We just installed one of these in our -4, but haven't fired it up yet. We'll be using it as a VSI and we'll use the temperature display to set our new true ASI.

Two other features I like are having density altitude at a touch of a button and I plan to add a check list item to set its altitude alerting feature to signal me when I reach the altitude I can make a safe 180 degree downwind landing in the unlikely event of an engine failure on takeoff.


After having the opportunity to finally use our MGL Avionics fuel totalizer / fuel gauge (FF-1) and their altimeter (ALT-1) I have to update my earlier comments.

I?m not at all happy with these instruments and would advise anyone to purchase from another manufacturer. The support from MGL has been top notch, but the readability of these instruments is sub par at best and the performance of the VSI sucks.

The display looked fine on the bench in the hangar, but once installed and exposed to real world conditions, you?ll find the displays barely readable. The problem seems to be a very inadequate backlight. Compared to our E.I. tach, the difference is like night and day.

The other problem is the performance of the VSI function of their altimeter (ALT-1) which was the primary reason we bought it. But they failed to add a filter or buffer, so when flying straight and level, the display will rapidly switch from indicating a +50 fpm climb to -150 fpm decent to +100 fpm climb, back to -75 fpm decent, etc., etc. all the while as far as you can tell, you?re still flying straight and level.

Live and learn?
 
I don't think it's that crazy to use analog instruments as backup considering thats what Cessna, Cirrus and many corp jet manufacturers do. There is presumably some method to their madness, and I am assuming that it is returning people to a base level of complexity when things go wrong.

From a personal standpoint, my concern about using the Dynon for backup is the length of time it takes to reset when it has been destabilized. Assuming a Murphy's Law scanario where something goes wrong with my PFD at the worst possible time -- like hard IFR in turbulence, I want to be in my personal comfort zone -- analog gauges .

Up until recently I felt exactly the same as you for IFR flight (gimmee back-up steam gauges I said :))....but then I started to think about it a bit more and now I'm not so sure. I think it comes down to what we term as "analog instruments" or "steam gauges" these days. Everyone is becoming confused by semantics in a background of rapidly changing technology.

These are my current thoughts (but I might change my mind tomorrow:D).

1. The back-up AHs you see in certificated aircraft are mechanical gyros either vacuum driven (not many RV builders want to go to the expense and complexity of installing a vacuum pump these days) or electrically driven (read mega-bucks). Also IFR RV builders tend to be short of panel space so they often opt for 2.25" AH back-up guages....difficult to get in vacuum and mega mega bucks for electric.

2. So what AHs do RV builders typically instal as IFR back-ups. Inevitably it's a TruTrak ADI which is itself fundamentally a solid state device. It doesn't read like a conventional AH, it needs electrons to keep it going, and they are not immune to false readings. I wouldn't call it a "steam gauge" by any stretch of the imagination. Will it do in a jam....probably, but it may not be any more accurate, or more reliable, than a Dynon (and may even be less accurate and reliable). I certainly wouldn't call it a "return to a base level of complexity".

3. Not many RV builders want to go to the expense of a decent 2.25" altimeter (too expensive) so they put in a cheap UMA single pointer. Totally useless for IFR (totally useless for anything:rolleyes:). The cheapest current answer is a Winter 2.25" altimeter but they are expensive at $800 upwards and I don't see too many installed.

4. The altimeter reading on a Dynon will probably be much more accurate over the full range than even the Winter altimeter. This is because solid state pressure sensors are more accurate than mechanical ones.

5. In my opinion it is VERY demanding to fly IFR in solid IMC without a VSI. If you don't believe me then you haven't tried it. You'll reference the VSI extensively in climb and descent and the altimeter only occasionally. Personally I wouldn't want to fly a serious NPA approach in IMC without a VSI.
Very few steam gauge back-ups include a VSI. But the Dynon gives you one.

This is not a plug for Dynon...not at all. It's just that it might be time to reassess what we mean these days when we talk about "steam gauge" or "analog gauge" back-ups" for IFR.

If we mean a TruTrak ADI, a UMA single pointer altimeter, and a Chinese ASI, then it might be that a small proven glass PFD (with it's own back-up battery) might in fact offer considerable advantages in terms of accuracy and provide additional important information as a bonus.

Builders might be concerned about a PFDs single point of failure....but in reality the TruTrak ADI is in itself a single point of failure if you're down to a basic "three pack" back-up. If you're in IMC and depending only on an AH, an ASI, and an altimeter.... and you lose the AH.......you're going down.:eek:
 
Last edited:
Hi Bob.....

....Have you flown a TruTrak ADI pilot II yet? I just installed one and the VSI display is way easier to read than a conventional AH because of it's much larger deflection.

Regards,
 
....Have you flown a TruTrak ADI pilot II yet? I just installed one and the VSI display is way easier to read than a conventional AH because of it's much larger deflection.

Regards,

Hi Pierre, I'm not aware that the ADI 11 incorporates a vertical speed function. According to the TruTrak website it has an AH but no VSI.
 
Is your panel cut yet?

FWIW. I opt'd for dual GRT's and 3.25 backup gauges (ASI, ALT,VSI & ADI). I'm still in my Phase I but I find that I use ASI & VSI as the primary most of the time rather then the GRTs.

I'm glad I have the EFIS's but I really like having the full size steam gauges also.
 
Last edited:
Builders might be concerned about a PFDs single point of failure....but in reality the TruTrak ADI is in itself a single point of failure if you're down to a basic "three pack" back-up. If you're in IMC and depending only on an AH, an ASI, and an altimeter.... and you lose the AH.......you're going down.:eek:

Whoa!! That's pretty strong statement!!

Part of the instrument rating checkride is to be able to fly "partial panel." In my day that meant, airspeed, altimeter, compass and Turn-and-bank or a turn coordinator.

In my panel, I removed my turn coordinator in favor of a TruTrak ADI and feel I greatly improved my "partial panel" situation.
 
Just to clarify

Whoa!! That's pretty strong statement!!

Part of the instrument rating checkride is to be able to fly "partial panel." In my day that meant, airspeed, altimeter, compass and Turn-and-bank or a turn coordinator.

In my panel, I removed my turn coordinator in favor of a TruTrak ADI and feel I greatly improved my "partial panel" situation.

We were discussing the scenario of having a typical IFR 3 gauge back-up for a glass EFIS as per certificated singles and many IFR RVs. When the EFIS dies you lose your Turn Co-ordinator....you're then left with only the three "steam gauge" (AH, ASI, and Altimeter). THAT'S the partial panel. If you lose the back-up AH as well (usually a TruTrak ADI) then your turkey is well and truly cooked.

I was hinting that as a back-up for a glass EFIS, a solid state TruTrak ADI might not be any more reliable than a solid state Dynon D10A. I'd be pleased to know if anyone with extensive experience of both thinks differently.
 
My 2 cents worth

To answer the original question on this thread, I use my Garmin 496 for backup altitude.

Some background: This thread is very interesting to me on 2 levels. In a previous life I was a mechanical engineer and did failure analysis of oil refinery and power plant instrumentation and control systems. Not surprisingly, the way you guys are thinking about this subject is very close to what I did for a living for 20 years or so. Also, I just went through this with my RV-4.

In my panel I have the following:
AFS-3500 (which has never hickupped)
A TT ADI
2" Analog ASI
A Garmin GPS Map 496.
A Navcom radio (SL-30)
A Com (SL-40)
TT Digiflight II Autopilot

The TT ADI, AFS, and 496 all have backup batteries. So keeping in mind that any failure of primary instrumentation is by definition an emergency, what are the single points of failure?

A total electrical failure (aircraft battery or alternator, system short, etc.) In this case the AFS, TT ADI, and GPS all go on backup battery, use the 496 for NAV and altitude, and get on the ground. You wouldn't be able to talk to anyone, but you could use the 496 for a psuedo ILS using the vertical NAV feature.

For almost any other failure the autopilot is the primary backup. Get it turned on and get oriented - FIRST!

If the EFIS fails: 1. Autopilot on. 2. Use the ADI for a horizon (It is also great for VS, and is much easier to fly than a artificial horizon altimeter combo), ASI for airspeed, and 496 for altitude. (This is an emergency after all.)

I also carry a backup handheld com and a backup Garmin 195 with me on IFR flights. Don't forget you can still fly the plane without talking to anyone.

I have also practiced blind flying using only the 496. Assuming reasonable flight conditions it is definitely doable. The only thing that might make it not work would be very severe turbulence.

The only scenario with this equipment that I can think of that would be catastrophic might be something like a lightning strike taking out the GPS, TRUTRACK ADI, and EFIS, and electrical system (autopilot) all at once. In this case the only thing that would be survivable would be a vacuum AH, steam gauge altimeter,etc., and then you would have no navigation ability except for a magnetic compass and the watch on your wrist. Not good in IFR.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top