What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

iPad EFIS Update

ssokol

Well Known Member
Sponsor
So back at the beginning of the year I posted a tentative panel design and got quite a bit of useful feedback from the VAF community. The design was (is) intended as a showcase of the iPad EFIS that I've been working on for the past three years. Here's what happened next...

Last month I finally got the EFIS hardware and software to the point that it was ready to move to the next stage of testing. For the past year I've been flying with the display for my EIFS (an iPad) on a RAM mount. It was my primary source of flight and nav data, but I still had the Dynon and steam gauges for backup. In almost 80 hours of flying, the numbers had matched up - airspeed sensor is working. Altimeter is working. GPS is working. The time had come to take it to the next level.

The next level can be summed up best by an old joke. If you're familiar with a bacon and egg sandwich, you know that it requires contributions from both a chicken and a pig. The saying goes that while the chicken is "involved" the pig is "committed." It was time to move from chicken to pig.

Getting to pig stage involved removing the panel. The Dynon SkyView - gone. The Garmin GNS-430 - outta there. The steam gauges - history. The switches came out. All of the wiring came out. In the end it was more-or-less tabula rasa. About the only survivors from the original panel were some Klixon breakers. In the end it was a pretty sad sight...

blank-slate-800.jpg


The next step was to rewire everything from the lights to the starter switch, to the autopilot. All told, the process took about 50 hours of work. Some of this was replacing wire (everything is now Tefzel). Some of this was the learning curve (you have to make space for things like antenna leads, power leads...). In the end, it was actually less painful than I thought. I ended up adding service loops and removable pigtails to make it easier to remove the panel. I also had to work around a sub-panel that had been chopped up to allow various legacy avionics to fit.

9-wide-boxes-800.jpg


Once all the new stuff was installed, I mounted a few other bits - the VAL 2KR Comm radio, the Trig remote transponder (a survivor from the SkyView system). The PS Engineering PMA8000BTi audio panel and the Apollo / Garmin SL-40 COM both moved to the new panel. Once everything was mounted up, I installed the panel (for the first of about 10 times).

11-first-run-800.jpg


While I had the seats, floor, and pretty much everything else out, I installed a TruTrak Vizion autopilot. This replaced the Dynon autopilot, and fortunately Dynon used the same mounting structures as TruTrak, so the installation was relatively painless. The only challenge was building and running the harness, which took about five hours between pitch and roll. Running the pitch harness through the very limited space in the floor tunnel was probably the most challenging bit. (Many thanks to my friend Eugene for helping out with the harness and for holding the fan in place while I worked in the tail cone in 100? heat.)

10-pitch-servo-600.jpg


When all was said and done, the new hardware was working. The autopilot passed its ground check. The engine monitor was showing rational cold values. The iPad chargers were charging and coolers were cooling. The next step as to haul it out of the hangar and see if the engine would start. Fortunately that turned out to be a non-event. The new mag switches and starter button worked. The new engine monitor showed what I expected to see. All was good.

14-first-taxi-800.jpg


I taxied around for ten or fifteen minutes and nothing exploded.

At that point the last step was to re-route the throttle and mixture cables. The builders had opted to install both on a vertical riser that ran from the top of the fuel pump shroud to the bottom of the panel. The riser also held the manual trim control. As you may be able to see in the picture above, I had separated the throttle and mixture section from the trim section. My A&P friend Robert did most of the work of moving the controls to a very nice 9" milled aluminum throttle bracket from SteinAir. (At some point I plan on replacing the manual trim control with electric trim but for now the manual wheel remains.)

The next day I ran the entire system through an extensive ground check. I re-tested the autopilot. I ran a basic pitot / static check (no leaks). Once I was sure it was about as good as it was going to get, I took it up for a brief test flight. In about forty minutes a was able to confirm that everything was working. Instruments were all in the expected ranges. Autopilot track and nav modes worked as advertised. Flight characteristics where not noticeably different. Here's a quick video showing the system in action:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=Md6_hLj8YzU

Since then I've put another three hours on it, all nominal.

So in about 70 hours, over the course of two weeks, N101PR underwent a pretty dramatic transformation. All in all I'm happy with the results. The new panel does a great job of showing off FlightView (the new EFIS). The airplane is roughly 20 pounds lighter. The power draw is minimal. The new layout is more intuitive. The new autopilot is a bit smoother. The new air vents provide a much needed boost in ventilation. Best of all, it's a bit more "my" aircraft. Time well spent.

For those who are interested in the details on FlightView, I'll post something tomorrow. You can also check out the overview on my web site here.
 
Steve, thanks for the update----I had been wondering about how the project was going.

Congrats on moving up a level with the plane.

What is the long skinny unit just below the left iPad?
 
Great looking panel. It?s just amazing how quickly EFIS are evolving and the functionality that is available. Love the weight savings too. Im a few years away from completion and imagining how much more changes will happen by then. I use iPad w ForeFlight as backup to my Garmin 430 but this is really tempting for VFR only folks I am sure. Thanks.
 
Very Cool

Looks nice. I'm very interested in learning more about this... mainly how the iPads hold up in extreme heat. I'm sure you have fans behind the panel, blowing on them but I know in the hot summer day that may not be enough.
Very very cool. can't wait to see your report in flight.

Best of luck.
 
Looks great, and I've lusted after this concept for years. But any idea on whether the Flightbox guys will support the android platform? I moved on from Apple a looong time ago, in favor of more options, more flexibility, brighter screens, higher resolution, less heat sensitivity, less *money*, etc.

Thanks,

Charlie
 
What is the long skinny unit just below the left iPad?

That's what we're calling FlightBar - it adds two knobs and six buttons to the system, giving the iPad a set of "hard" controls. Touch screens are great in smooth air, but almost unusable in the bumps.

FlightBar is the fix for that. The knobs controls zoom on the MFD and various values (baro, bugs, etc.) on the PFD. The buttons map to the soft buttons at the bottom of the screen. Makes the system even easier to use.

Here's a pic that makes it a bit easier to see:

flightbar.jpg
 
Last edited:
Is it or would it be possible to make the EMS box so that it can stand being mounted on the hot side of the FW?

Hrm... That might require moving from industrial grade electronics (good up to 85?C / 185?F) to aerospace / mil-spec electronics. That said, I know MGL's engine data module is frequently mounted on the hot side. At the very least it would probably require a different enclosure - our current one is made from Boltaron (an aerospace grade, FAA approved variant of PVC). It's got decent thermal characteristics, but I don't know if it could avoid warping.

I can see the advantage - shorter runs from the sensors; only a single data cable running through the firewall; easier access to the box (depending on where you mount it).

Anyone know what the average temperature is forward of the firewall?
 
Looks great, and I've lusted after this concept for years. But any idea on whether the Flightbox guys will support the android platform? I moved on from Apple a looong time ago, in favor of more options, more flexibility, brighter screens, higher resolution, less heat sensitivity, less *money*, etc.

At this point, we (the FlightBox guy) isn't planning on building an Android app. Unfortunately, Apple owns 75%+ of the aviation market thanks mostly to ForeFlight, so that's where I focused my efforts. (Truth in advertising: also, my wife works for Apple.)

The other advantage to the iPad is that there's one manufacturer and a limited number of form factors. With Android it is very hard to build something as complex as FlightView and have it operate properly on all tablets. Some Android tablets are great (Samsung). Some are just horrible (cheap stuff from AliBaba). Some use non-standard screen sizes. Some run relatively cool (Samsung) while others would work as a backup cabin heater.

The iPad is not a perfect platform, but it's a consistent one. I can reasonably be expected to own one of each supported model and understand the variables associated with it. Also, for whatever its worth, the underlying iOS-ness is largely irrelevant in this application. Once you fire up FlightView you're using an EFIS, not a tablet.
 
Looks nice. I'm very interested in learning more about this... mainly how the iPads hold up in extreme heat. I'm sure you have fans behind the panel, blowing on them but I know in the hot summer day that may not be enough.

I'm interested too. I've taken it to a few pretty hot places here in California and the only significant challenge has been cooling the iPads if you leave them in the airplane on the ramp. I flew down to Paso Robles (KPRB) a few weeks ago - before the upgrade - and left the iPad in the RAM mount. When I came back out to the ramp after lunch it was too hot to operate. I put it in the shade for about 10 minutes and it came back online.

The cooling mount that we're offering (FlightDock) includes a variable speed fan with a thermal control module. It keeps a constant medium-volume flow of air across the back of the iPad. As the panel heats up, the controller speeds up the fan. On a truly hot day (I've tested it up to 109?F) it blasts the iPad.

iOS includes and API that allows the app to subscribe to the thermal stress state of the system. FlightView subscribes to this and uses it to monitor the health of the platform. The scale is pretty rough: nominal; fair; serious; critical. The OS starts throttling the CPUs if you tread into "serious" territory. The app includes a little thermometer icon that appears if the stress level gets above fair. Yellow = serious. Red = critical. For whatever it's worth, I've never seen red in flight.

I have seen yellow on some iPad models, and the performance definitely degrades a bit. I'm working on some code changes that will being disabling various secondary features which require quite a bit of power. This should help.

Finally, I'm working on a different cooling rig for the FlightDock. It uses a thermoelectric cooler module (Peltier) to chill the iPad. The design I have can be easily swapped in if you happen to live in a particularly hot place. It will probably add something like $100 to the total cost and will draw a good bit of power (upwards of 5 amps at 14v) when running.
 
This is looking awesome and sounding like a great fit for my future kitfox project :) A couple questions:

- AOA support in development?
- Is the code open source?
- What kinds of knobs/buttons are you using? I've found that for example the Garmin knobs feel much more solid than the Dynon knobs/buttons.
- Any electronic circuit breaker system in the future? :)
- I notice the rpm in the video is flickering into the red. Signal smoothing issue or were you just flying close to redline?
- Will you be at OSH where we can see it in person?
- Synthetic vision?
- charts? How do they get updated?
- flight plan integration with foreflight/gpilot?

Thanks!
-Guil
 
- AOA support in development?

On the list as a to-do item. We will probably go with a calculated (rather than measured with an additional pitot line) solution.

- Is the code open source?

No. I contribute to the Stratux project (both by buying stuff from Chris and by occasional code contributions) but I can't afford to open source this.

- What kinds of knobs/buttons are you using? I've found that for example the Garmin knobs feel much more solid than the Dynon knobs/buttons.

The encoders are generic, but I tested a bunch of variants before selecting this one. It has a solid feel with clear detents. We're also using knurled aluminum guitar knobs, which give it distinct, solid grip. The buttons are simple SPST tactile switches. They're not mil-spec but they do the job.

- Any electronic circuit breaker system in the future? :)

I run hot and cold on the idea. I may at some point add support for VPs product, but frankly it seems like a $2k solution to a $100 problem. I used Klixons for the 6A because I already had a bunch. If I had been starting from scratch I might have gone with auto fuses ala the RV-12.

- I notice the rpm in the video is flickering into the red. Signal smoothing issue or were you just flying close to redline?

That was a signal issue. I was using an unshielded line from the mag switch to the input. It was apparently picking up noise that caused the RPM 1 input to peak out as you saw there. A shielded line and a bit more of a filter seem to have fixed it.

- Will you be at OSH where we can see it in person?

Yep. I have a booth in Hangar A - Aircraft Spruce. Number 1043. On the left-hand side towards the back. I'll also have the 6A there (in homebuilt parking, not the booth) so you can check out the installation.

- Synthetic vision?

On the list. It looks so cool, but frankly I have yet to hear of anyone who's life has been saved by SV. It will probably arrive along with on-the-map color coded terrain some time next year.

- charts? How do they get updated?

There's a download function built into the app. Connect to the Internet over Wifi or 4G, go to Settings, Downloads, and tap the update button. The download is about 90 MB and includes the data for airspace, airports, obstacles, etc. That gets drawn on top of base maps that are one-time downloads.

I don't currently have support in there for "classic" charts - VFR sectionals, IVR low / high, FAA airport diagrams. I may find a way to do those or I may see if Seattle Avionics can sell updates.

The real challenge is anywhere outside of the USA. Apparently other CAAs are not as open with their databases.

- flight plan integration with foreflight/gpilot?

Already have basic integration with FF. Enter a flight plan in FF, tap the Share button and you'll see "FlightBox" as a destination. Tap that and we load the plan. No plans for integration with GP - they're not into playing with others.
 
That's what we're calling FlightBar - it adds two knobs and six buttons to the system, giving the iPad a set of "hard" controls. Touch screens are great in smooth air, but almost unusable in the bumps.

FlightBar is the fix for that. The knobs controls zoom on the MFD and various values (baro, bugs, etc.) on the PFD. The buttons map to the soft buttons at the bottom of the screen. Makes the system even easier to use.

Here's a pic that makes it a bit easier to see:

flightbar.jpg

Very nice and for some reason you remind me of Hilton when he was starting.

I have a Dynon D-180 and everything else you see on my signature line here. I also have a borrowed Stratux for testing adsb-in and WingX. I was considering replacing the D-180 with a Skyview for their synthetic vision and because I find myself using WingX Pro on my iPad so much for information I could get in my 496 but it?s easier on the iPad.

Your system has me rethinking everything. Should I email you directly or do you prefer to do it here?
 
How is the FlightBar connected into the iPad bluetooth? Could we use that stand alone with firelight for example or does it require some of the other components in your install?
 
How is the FlightBar connected into the iPad bluetooth? Could we use that stand alone with firelight for example or does it require some of the other components in your install?

It does indeed use the wireless technology you mention. (We are not members of the consortium - cartel? - that makes that technology, so apparently we are not allowed to mention its name.)

I would be open to working with ForeFlight or any of the other EFB manufacturers to add support for it, but at this time it only works with FlightView.
 
It does indeed use the wireless technology you mention. (We are not members of the consortium - cartel? - that makes that technology, so apparently we are not allowed to mention its name.)

I would be open to working with ForeFlight or any of the other EFB manufacturers to add support for it, but at this time it only works with FlightView.

That was going to be my first question also because I use WingX so that halts every other question for now. Thanks.
 
I'm interested too. I've taken it to a few pretty hot places here in California and the only significant challenge has been cooling the iPads if you leave them in the airplane on the ramp. I flew down to Paso Robles (KPRB) a few weeks ago - before the upgrade - and left the iPad in the RAM mount. When I came back out to the ramp after lunch it was too hot to operate. I put it in the shade for about 10 minutes and it came back online.

The cooling mount that we're offering (FlightDock) includes a variable speed fan with a thermal control module. It keeps a constant medium-volume flow of air across the back of the iPad. As the panel heats up, the controller speeds up the fan. On a truly hot day (I've tested it up to 109?F) it blasts the iPad.

iOS includes and API that allows the app to subscribe to the thermal stress state of the system. FlightView subscribes to this and uses it to monitor the health of the platform. The scale is pretty rough: nominal; fair; serious; critical. The OS starts throttling the CPUs if you tread into "serious" territory. The app includes a little thermometer icon that appears if the stress level gets above fair. Yellow = serious. Red = critical. For whatever it's worth, I've never seen red in flight.

I have seen yellow on some iPad models, and the performance definitely degrades a bit. I'm working on some code changes that will being disabling various secondary features which require quite a bit of power. This should help.

Finally, I'm working on a different cooling rig for the FlightDock. It uses a thermoelectric cooler module (Peltier) to chill the iPad. The design I have can be easily swapped in if you happen to live in a particularly hot place. It will probably add something like $100 to the total cost and will draw a good bit of power (upwards of 5 amps at 14v) when running.

Can't find the FLightDock anywhere under Products or Store on your website.
 
Steve, you are being quite patient with all of these questions. One more: How does the TruTrak interface with the system?
 
TruTrak Integration

Steve, you are being quite patient with all of these questions. One more: How does the TruTrak interface with the system?

Right now, we have basic NMEA integration, which means the Vizion or Gemini uses our GPS info to drive the "Track" mode (i.e. following a set ground track) and the "NAV" mode (following left-of-course / right-of-course and track-to-next-waypoint info). This works with pretty much any modern digital autopilot.

In the near future we will be adding remote control capabilities for the TruTrak APs, which is really very cool. The remote mode will allow FlightView to turn the AP on / off, set the mode, and adjust the lateral and vertical configuration just as a human user can from the control head (but a whole lot faster). This is cool because it simplifies standard operations (not that the TruTrak APs are hard to use), but it's even cooler because it may open up some basic forms of "envelope protection".
 
Can't find the FLightDock anywhere under Products or Store on your website.

I haven't put it up yet because I don't have "real" product photos yet. I don't have those yet because we just finalized the mount for it recently and I don't yet have any of the pretty professionally milled enclosures yet. I should have them some time shortly after Oshkosh. (I guess I should go ahead and post my pic of the prototype - that gets the idea across pretty well.)

FlightBar will come with mounting hardware for either our FlightDock iPad mount or the X-naut mount.

The current plan is to sell FlightDock for $200, FlightBar for $200, or the pair for $350.
 
I haven't put it up yet because I don't have "real" product photos yet. I don't have those yet because we just finalized the mount for it recently and I don't yet have any of the pretty professionally milled enclosures yet. I should have them some time shortly after Oshkosh. (I guess I should go ahead and post my pic of the prototype - that gets the idea across pretty well.)

FlightBar will come with mounting hardware for either our FlightDock iPad mount or the X-naut mount.

The current plan is to sell FlightDock for $200, FlightBar for $200, or the pair for $350.

I really like your product and where it’s going and also understand you’re wanting to sell your EFIS product after spending so much time designing it but it limits sales to people who don’t already have an EFIS. I would buy your Stratux, Flightdock, and Flightbar if they would work with other EFB apps like WingX. It’s like people who have FF don’t want to learn another EFIS even if it’s cheaper or even free. That’s why I won’t buy another Garmin product because they only play with other Garmins.
 
I really like your product and where it?s going and also understand you?re wanting to sell your EFIS product after spending so much time designing it but it limits sales to people who don?t already have an EFIS. I would buy your Stratux, Flightdock, and Flightbar if they would work with other EFB apps like WingX. It?s like people who have FF don?t want to learn another EFIS even if it?s cheaper or even free. That?s why I won?t buy another Garmin product because they only play with other Garmins.

And I won't buy anything tethered to Apple....
 
I really like your product and where it?s going and also understand you?re wanting to sell your EFIS product after spending so much time designing it but it limits sales to people who don?t already have an EFIS. I would buy your Stratux, Flightdock, and Flightbar if they would work with other EFB apps like WingX. It?s like people who have FF don?t want to learn another EFIS even if it?s cheaper or even free. That?s why I won?t buy another Garmin product because they only play with other Garmins.

The challenge with using an existing EFB like WingX, ForeFlight, or FlyQ is that they're built to be EFB - flight planning and situational awareness tools - and don't have all the things you want in an EFIS.

I use and like both Aerovie and ForeFlight, built I ended up building the FlightView app because neither of them (nor any other EFB) have what I considered must-have EFIS features:

- Air data (airspeed, OAT, TAS, density altitude)
- Engine data
- Fuel data
- COM tuning interface
- transponder interface
- autopilot interface

This is in no way intended as a slight on any EFB app. They have a lot of features that are not in FlightView. But they're intended for pre-flight planning, self-briefing, and in-flight situational awareness. FlightView is built for flight instrumentation, engine instrumentation, and VFR navigation. They're complimentary, but serve different purposes.

As for the learning curve, I hear you. I did my best to make the FlightView user interface as intuitive as possible. I actually hired a UI designer who used to work at Apple to help with that. We spent a lot of time fine tuning the design to make it as easy to use as we could.

I just posted a library of short training videos. Check out the one on navigation. I think you'll find that while it's different from WingX, it's pretty easy.
 
Thanks for posting the videos. Very nice and showcases your system well.

Even if one doesn?t want to use as a PFD, for VFR looks like a nice product for an MFD or stand alone engine monitor?


Tim
 
I'm really impressed with the "fit&finish" of the UI and the features. You've come a long way to a product that seems ready to show up the big guys. Great work!
 
Even if one doesn?t want to use as a PFD, for VFR looks like a nice product for an MFD or stand alone engine monitor?

Yes, though I suspect users would probably want several additional display options for an MFD:

- Map / EMS 50/50
- Classic traffic display
- Additional weather products (already on the drawing board)

It might also work better in portrait mode, which is also on the list.
 
Demo Panel for Oshkosh

The metal parts for the FlightDock mount arrived on Friday and several were quickly mounted up for Oshkosh. Three might be overkill, but it sure looks cool.

demopanel.png
 
It's just missing your best part, the controller bar on the bottom of an ipad. Regarding the mount now you can post some more pictures from all angles to see if it'll work to mount my ipad to cover the holes where I have some backup round gauges I'm removing.

I was thinking of adding your system as a backup to the D-180. The Dynon is already installed with autopilot and everything and the only thing I'm missing is the IFR navigator which should be coming soon enough.

Then as your system matures and develops more then I'll start to move things over to your system (I guess I'd have to replace the autopilot servos) and eventually reposition everything on a newly cut panel to then make the Dynon the backup.

Will all of the RV engine, fuel, sensors I'm using for the D-180 work with yours at the same time?
 
Last edited:
Will all of the RV engine, fuel, sensors I'm using for the D-180 work with yours at the same time?

Scott will know better. But the part numbers he lists for the engine monitor sensors, on his website, are the EI red cube for fuel flow and Dynon sensors for the rest. So, I bet you?re good on using what you have.

Tim
 
Scott will know better. But the part numbers he lists for the engine monitor sensors, on his website, are the EI red cube for fuel flow and Dynon sensors for the rest. So, I bet you’re good on using what you have.

Tim

Thanks. Would you know if I can attach both systems to the same sensors to compare readings on both systems simultaneously or would that give some kind of overload or impedance mismatch?
 
Would you know if I can attach both systems to the same sensors to compare readings on both systems simultaneously or would that give some kind of overload or impedance mismatch?

It won't work for any "passive" sender / sensor like resistive fuel, oil temp, thermocouples (EGT / CHT). It might work for some active (powered) sensors but I would not guarantee it. I used a combination of switches and duplicate sensors when I was testing.

In terms of the probes, most of what you have should work. We support just about any type of thermocouple. Our fuel flow (like everyone else, including big G) is measured with the EI Red/Gold Cubes. Fuel and oil pressure are Kavlico. The MAP sensor is the same GM sensor that Dynon is using. Oil temp is Datcon, probably designed for some car (or tractor) from the 60s.

If you have something else we can probably get it added into the system. I hope to find my own source for probes, but for now I'm just pointing to various 3rd party probes on Spruce.
 
I?m still considering it. What size are those iPads?

Anyone using the iPad Air who can tell me if it makes any difference with the ?antireflecting coating? on the display. I have an RV-8 and with the full clear canopy there?s lot of sun light.

I have the first Mini and still use it on a mount but want a bigger size to install it permanently on the dash. The 9.7 is a size that will do what I want but the Air has that coating and I want to be sure it?s worth it or if I even need it.
 
I?m still considering it. What size are those iPads?

10.5" Pro (2017) | 12.9" Pro (2017) | 11" Pro (2018)

I don't have an Air, so I don't know about the screen coating. I've used 3rd party glare reducers. They help, but aren't generally a "need" as much as a "nice to have".
 
10.5" Pro (2017) | 12.9" Pro (2017) | 11" Pro (2018)

I don't have an Air, so I don't know about the screen coating. I've used 3rd party glare reducers. They help, but aren't generally a "need" as much as a "nice to have".

Thank you !
 
Ok so what's new in the last 6 months? I went to the website but didn't see any changes. I already bought the Stratux and also an iPad Air2 to replace my old Mini.

I still find the Flight Bar very interesting and just saw the YouTube showing the app flying into a airport changing frequencies and alerting to ADS-B aircraft landing at a parallel runway. It also shows a transponder at the bottom menu.

Does it control and change frequencies on a Garmin SL40 and a Garmin 327 yet? I read your blog but I wasn't clear on that.

Do you have it where we can see the VFR charts on the moving map?

If I have the iPad mounted on a RAM mount and it's tilted for me to see it better, will that change anything on the display? Some apps use the internal gyros and if you tilt the ipad it shows on the app like if the plane were flying out of trim or sideways.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top