Chelton

Anybody have any experience with the Chelton EFIS good or bad? Or is anybody else considering using it? I somehow talked my wife into the fact that I need this system. I mentioned a couple of cool (of course I used the term "safety") features like the outline of the dead-stick glide area and the highlighting of dangerous surrounding elevations, and the fact that it's certified. And now Chelton is offering just the single screen for a much cheaper price. I was looking at the other EFIS systems, but they seem to be still in development. Plus since they won't be certified, I'd have to buy a certified GPS for IFR operations, correct?

Dave

I'd feel better with a GNS-430 plus a blue mountain EFIS than I would with this Chelton system. $15K without redundancy. Ouch.

btw: I have a Dynon D10 and GNS-430, but if I was doing things today I'd be looking at the BMA EFIS sport.

The Chelton Systems are expensive, but they are definately top of the line when it comes to the EFIS stuff. My experience is with the little Dynons up to the Cheltons, and the GRT stuff in between.

We sell & install a lot of Dynons, currently have at least a dozen GRT Dual Screen units for customers (are installing one in an F-1 rocket panel now), and even sell some Chelton systems.

Chelton has been around longer than any of the other combined, offers certified units (for a lot more dough) and has a LOT of units flying in the high end airplane market (Lancair, etc..). The quality is IMPECABLE, and contrary to others rumors, it does in fact have some functionality the other don't.

Also, they haven't had to spend the last 2 years "debugging" their systems. They are ROCK SOLID and proven.

That being said, for the same price you can get a 3 screen GRT EFIS system which is pretty slick and what we've been doing for some RV-10 builders.

Last but not least, I'm flying behind a Dynon and love it. My wallet isn't fat enough to buy anything bigger at the moment, but if you guys buy LOTS of chelton systems, I may be able to move up!

Cheers,
Stein

kevinh said:

I'd feel better with a GNS-430 plus a blue mountain EFIS than I would with this Chelton system. $15K without redundancy. Ouch.

btw: I have a Dynon D10 and GNS-430, but if I was doing things today I'd be looking at the BMA EFIS sport.

Click to expand...

BMA EFIS Sport is $6500 and the GNS-430 is around $6700. That makes $13,200. And where is the redundancy in that system? You have one GPS and one flight instrument, correct? I guess you do get two screens with that set up.

Stein said:

The Chelton Systems are expensive, but they are definately top of the line when it comes to the EFIS stuff. My experience is with the little Dynons up to the Cheltons, and the GRT stuff in between.

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Thanks for your comments Stein. I noticed on your web site earlier this week that you're carrying Chelton now.

It's difficult trying to make a decision on these systems. None of the web sites are very clear, and some manufacturers are quoting features that are not yet implemented. I work in the software field, so I'm very familiar with how well vaporware works. At different time over the past year, I've been sold on the Dynon, Grand Rapids, Blue Mountain, and my current preference, the Chelton.

From what I can tell the Chelton has (at least) these two features over the others:
1. Conformal display of obstructions, terrain, and traffic (from mode S transponder). Some of the others can display this info in the map mode, but not on the flight display.
2. Dead-stick glide area. The Chelton will draw the area on the map display considering altitude, glide ratio, wind, altitude lost during turns, etc.

I tried contacting Direct2Avionics with some questions on the Chelton, but haven't heard anything back yet. What is their relationship in the Chelton business? They seem like kind of a middle-man between Chelton and the experimental-market avionics sellers.

If you have a minute for some Chelton questions that I can't seem to find answers for:

On the new single-screen Chelton unit, is there a split-screen mode that shows the flight display and map at the same time? Or do you have to flip between them?

To enable the engine monitoring function on the Chelton is a separate engine monitoring system needed, such as the Grand Rapids EIS-4000?

The specs section of this brochure says the GPS in the Chelton is a "Garmin non-certified". Does that mean the Chelton can't be used for IFR GPS approaches?

Since the Chelton uses Jepp data, I assume the same subscription fees apply to this unit as with a Garmin GPS.

Thanks,
Dave

Davepar said:

BMA EFIS Sport is $6500 and the GNS-430 is around $6700. That makes $13,200. And where is the redundancy in that system? You have one GPS and one flight instrument, correct? I guess you do get two screens with that set up.

Click to expand...

The BMA box has an independent GPS. At $6700 I received an independent CDI with my 430. Therefore you have backup nav.

In either of these proposed systems (Chelton $15K or BMA+430) you would need to have some sort of backup steam guages or EFIS.

I'm just saying: If I was able to plunk down $15K for an EFIS (but no more) then I'd want to have some redundancy.

kevinh said:

In either of these proposed systems (Chelton $15K or BMA+430) you would need to have some sort of backup steam guages or EFIS.

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I agree. Back-up airspeed and altimeter at a minimum. I guess that was my point. None of the EFIS units provide any redundancy on their own. You either need two of everything, or get a Dynon or steam gauges for back-up.

I'm hoping to get to Sun 'n Fun or Oshkosh to take a look at these things in person. That's the only way to really make an informed decision.

I guess I was using the wrong email for Direct2Avionics. I received an email from one of their salespeople yesterday and got in touch with them via phone.

To answer my own questions:

On the new single-screen Chelton unit, is there a split-screen mode that shows the flight display and map at the same time? Or do you have to flip between them?

Click to expand...

No split-screen mode. You have to flip between the different displays.

To enable the engine monitoring function on the Chelton is a separate engine monitoring system needed, such as the Grand Rapids EIS-4000?

Click to expand...

Yes. This is true even if you have a FADEC-equipped engine.

The specs section of this brochure says the GPS in the Chelton is a "Garmin non-certified". Does that mean the Chelton can't be used for IFR GPS approaches?

Click to expand...

Correct. However, there aren't many GPS approaches out there right now. The Chelton can interface to an SL-30 to provide VOR approach info.

One other thing I didn't know is that a separate box is needed to interface the GTX-330 transponder to the Chelton to get the traffic info. You need an ARINC to RS-232 converter, which is about $2k. I guess this is the same story with the Grand Rapids system.

He's also going to arrange a demo ride for me. Very cool.

Note that this is my understanding after talking with the D2A salesperson. You should talk to them directly to get the straight scoop.

Dave

Davepar said:

One other thing I didn't know is that a separate box is needed to interface the GTX-330 transponder to the Chelton to get the traffic info. You need an ARINC to RS-232 converter, which is about $2k. I guess this is the same story with the Grand Rapids system.Dave

Click to expand...

Nope. The GRT system does not need a converter. You need to purchase the ARINC 429 interface module on one of your display units for $475.

A local builder has run up against the following with trying to install his dual screen Chelton.

ARINC 429 to RS 232 converter needed but not yet actually available from Chelton.

Seperate air/data computer needed to actually connect pitot and airspeed. Cost approx. 200-300? Without this you don't have airespeed, altitude, ROC, DA etc. etc.

A complete EFIS for 25K - not hardly.

If you get a flight demo make sure you know what harware is actually used in the unit you're flying.

Stan

Should be air/data computer need to connect pitot and static lines.

Stan

From what I can tell, if BM gets their stuff together, that may be the way to go. I'm seriously looking at dual BM G3s, which give redundant AI capability if one heads south. Additionally, a 430 or 530 will provide primary certified capability that will drive the BM G3s and a stand-alone CDI/GS. If I go with Mode S, the 430/530 should accept traffic data as well. Adding an SL30 provides redundant comm/nav capability. The biggest risk would be that both G3s are running the same software and thus, may be subject to the same errors, but if operating one as AI and the other as HSI, the potential for each lock up at the same time is really small.

Jim

Whoa there..... I think your local builder just may be a bit mis-informed on a few things.

The ARINC 429 to RS-232 converter is NOT a required thing, especially if you are using ARINC 429 enabled avionics. That's why it's listed as an option

You absolutely DO NOT need a separate Air Data computer. It's built into the Chelton. I don't know where he got that idea from. Maybe because you do have an option to use the Grand Rapids EIS air data computer, but then you get a CREDIT from Chelton for the difference. Something on the order of $300.00.

Believe it or not, it is doable for $25K. You just have to get your ducks in a row before you jump.

stanbrv said:

A local builder has run up against the following with trying to install his dual screen Chelton.

ARINC 429 to RS 232 converter needed but not yet actually available from Chelton.

Seperate air/data computer needed to actually connect pitot and airspeed. Cost approx. 200-300? Without this you don't have airespeed, altitude, ROC, DA etc. etc.

A complete EFIS for 25K - not hardly.

If you get a flight demo make sure you know what harware is actually used in the unit you're flying.

Stan

Click to expand...

Nobody said the Chelton stuff was the cheapest, but it's definately the top of the line stuff out there. If you can't afford it then don't buy it - but certainly don't complain about the high price. It's in a completely different league than Dynon, GRT & BMA. Price and value are not proportionally equal.

I'm not saying this because I'm particularly prejedice. I fly behind a "little" Dynon, we've installed a bunch of GRT EFIS systems in panels, and when I can afford it I'll have a Chelton system myself. I'm not hot on the BMA stuff yet, but that may change with time.

Anyway, like John said, do your homework. Don't take any 2nd or 3rd hand advice form anyone about any of the systems, especially technical details. The Direct2Avionics guys are always willing to answer questions and they don't lie. If they did they wouldn't be in business very long, especially with the clientel they have. Most of their dealers are also very top notch people as well.

Sorry if the note sounds too harsh, it's not intended that way. Just trying to provide some additional accurate details.

Cheers,
Stein Bruch
RV6's, Minneapolis

Backup AI

I'm doing an RV-8 with Dynon, steam gauges (Alt,ASI,VSI,TC), Garmin stuff (GNS430, GTX330, SL30) and two CDI's. Figure I'll be no worse of if the Dynon dies than in other planes I've flown with dry vacuum gyros. The Tru Trak autopilot also gives a stabilized heading reference, so I didn't plan a DG. We've tried the Garmin 296 pseudo panel page and find you can fly under the hood with good control and orientation, and that's another level of backup that's completely indedepent of the airplane - the 196 didn't update rapidly enough to make flying by it practical for at least two of us who've tried it. Thanks to all who contributed to this thread - I've learned a lot. Stein, happy to hear you like your Dynon. I can't afford the Chelton either - not yet. Bill