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Advice? What to do when your FSDO sucks?

punkin

Well Known Member
I tried to keep it short, but I can’t. I’ve got two experiences, two years apart, that demonstrate to me that the Denver FSDO goes out of their way, as a culture, to make it hard for E-AB aircraft owners. So the question is, who cares?

No seriously, who cares? I mean, there is an inspector general of course...I’m sure they look into criminal matters and matters of malfeasance...perhaps they could find some nuggets in the folks who claim to work 4 - 10 hour shifts, yet are unavailable before 10am and after 3pm...but I doubt that will go anywhere.

I want to know if there is a “boss” that actually gives a ****, who cares to know how awful this office is?

2 years ago, I was literally greeted, for an appointment I had made two weeks prior, with, “We can’t do that today...we’re about to go home”. This was before we even made it into the “secure” facility as we have to be escorted from outside the gate. We were literally still walking inside. My ridiculous request? The one I made the appointment for two weeks prior? An N number change, and the corresponding OP lims update.

A month ago, I took a deep breath to make the same appointment. Actually, I started with the lady who finally helped me the first time—I emailed her directly. Of course, she’s been promoted, because she wasn’t awful, but she gave me some tips as to how to make the experience go smoother.

1.). Call and make an appointment, and ask for the name of the inspector, their phone number, and their email address. Email them in advance all the documentation, and be clear what you want.

REALITY: Lady on the phone gave me the name, refused other contact info. said they often trade shifts on “walk ins” so I’d be wasting my time. Hmmm...walk ins? Nope, doesn’t an appointment mean anything? Nope, their whole attitude is that “walk ins” are an inconvenience...and it shows.

2.) Did my own homework, and made some calls and dropped some emails. Get phone call from inspector #1. He doesn’t know how to change an N number. His job is something else. He’s always getting stuck with “walk ins”. He punts me to inspector #2, on the auspice of his desire to “learn from the one who has done it”

3.) Show up for appointment. Pour on all my public servant charm. They say, “this is gonna take a while,”. I smile, “ I’ve got all afternoon, shall I sit here?” (Gesturing to chair in front of cubicle)

4.) 1.5 hrs later they check in. airworthiness is done. Having a problem with printer. Somehow, they can print special airworthiness, but not ops lims. (Odd, as it’s now the same document). Get special airworthiness, only op lim attached is that I’m experimental. I probably should have taken it and ran.

5.). The original inspector tells me all this, and says inspector #2 will call me the next day. He reiterates—don’t call me, this is number 2’s deal. Call him

6.) four business days later I call. Leave message

7.) 7 days later leave message, also leave message for #1

8.) 10 days later leave message

9.) 12 days later leave message, and inspectors phone rings through to his cell phone...leave message.

99.) 20 days later, I leave my first nasty message for both inspectors, and re email the original helpful lady.

100.) Inspector #1 calls, tells me 50 reasons why I should not be calling him and it is not his fault...but also makes excuses. each one would have been an awesome 2 or 3 day excuse, but not a three week excuse. He hates this response. gives me supervisor number. not for HIS supervisor, but for supervisor of inspector #2.

101.) Call supervisor. He’s on vacation, but it rings his cell. He assures me he will take care of it.

102.) Inspector #1 emails me special airworthiness and ops lims. Tells me he has ”volunteered to help” because he cares. A few issues with ops lims (took away night vfr, ifrwith proper equipment, left test area ambiguous)

103.) Inspector #1 finishes the job after one phone call of me explaining discrepancies and referencing my original op lims, and makes them right-ish. Still ambiguous on major change test area.

SOOOOOO.....If it can be done in 4 hours after raising holy ****...why can’t it be done in three weeks by being nice?

I’m not a jerk, and I don’t like channeling that guy. But dear God...there is ZERO accountability for these government workers, and their disdain for general aviation, or at least E-AB is sickening.

Does EAA have any good relationships here? AOPA?

**** Im scared to death now that I was so unreasonable as to demand proper and legal paperwork for my aircraft that I’ll have suits following my ADSB to slam me for some paperwork violation in the future!

If my business doesn’t give my customers what they need...those customers simply go somewhere else. I lose.

We don’t have an option...it’s not like I can go to FSDO-B and ask for the same stuff.

Geez I’m glad I don’t have to do this often.
 
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I had a similar experiance at a different fsdo. I was always polite about it. But it took me calling the top person at the fsdo. They didn't answer, but I left a message and an inspector called me back the same day.

I did reach out to the MIDO and they offered to have their supervisor call the FSDO supervisor after I told them I had been trying for a month to get ahold of the fsdo.

As a last resort, you can also call the main office in Oklahoma. But only do that as a last resort. I probably would have done that after 3-4 messages, a few emails and calling supervisors over the course of a few weeks.


One thing in particular that irritated me about my particular experiance is the supervisors NEVER called me back or answered a single email. I had to have called a dozen times, lefts 8 messages and sent several emails. Not a single reply. And when I called the front deak and asked to speak to them they just said they were busy and said to call back later. When I asked to leave a message they said "he said he will call you back". Guess what. No call back.

It took me about 4 months to get my certificate.

I did learn that inspectors get a certain number of points for doing various inspections and certificates. I dont know exactly what the point are for, but they are basically credit for doing their job. I also learned they get ZERO points for issuing certificates for experimental home builds. I dont know if that is truly accurate, but that's what I was told. That means that dealing with experimentals is a total inconvenience and they dont want to do it.

In my case, I was in Hawaii and there was no DAR in Hawaii, so I was forced to use the fsdo. While I believe they were trying to do a good job, it was very clear I was no where on the priority list.
 
Hi Scott,

I can't offer much for solutions, but on the subject of test area, I can tell you that the last time I got mine changed, I was told that test areas must now be requested/approved each time you re-enter phase 1. Reason given was that future development on the ground may affect where it's safe to fly phase 1. I think my last one was handled via email.

Charlie
 
It isn?t just experimental aircraft treated this way. It?s basically anyone that?s Part 91, as that?s their lowest priority. I manage two jets and have similar issues.

Best advice that I can give you is don?t be afraid to call the supervisor, the FSDO managers office, or even the regional office, and you?ll eventually get what you need.

I?d like to think that the FSDO is just understaffed rather than neglecting their job.
 
Call and email your congressman. They have people who handle these things all the time. The response from the FAA will be very quick.
G
 
Not the same everywhere (I think)

For whatever it's worth, I had a panic moment when I found that my new-to-me RV-6A was delivered without its special airworthiness cert.

I called the KC FISDO, talked with an ASI, and had a replacement certificate 24 hours later. The inspector actually met me in the lobby, had a copy of the operating limits (just in case) and shook my hand. He offered to help out with the process if I wanted to do any sort of mod that would require another round of Phase 1.

All that said, I think KC might be some sort of aviation paradise. It was the home of the Small Aircraft Directorate and many of the people there were pilots.
 
Call and email your congressman. They have people who handle these things all the time. The response from the FAA will be very quick.
G

Best advice ever. A friend was having all sorts of issues with a registration transfer on an RV he bought (OKC kept rejecting his *signature*, of all things, for weird reasons), and he was getting nowhere. He contacted his Congressperson, and lo and behold, problem solved in very short order.

Probably helped that he was a retired Naval Aviator. :) But by all means...don't hesitate to call or meet in person with your Rep or Sen. They get paid to fix problems like this, in addition to whatever else it is they do.
 
FSDO

Similar experience changing a N number in Florida
Use a DAR
Worth every cent!
Aggravation not worth it!
Dave
 
My advice would be to call a DAR. While I have no argument with your position pertaining to the FSDO, They should know how to do this, DARs do this type of thing on a daily basis and typically know the procedure better than most ASIs.

Yes, it will cost more, but it will be done promptly and correctly. I'm actually surprised that the FSDO didn't suggest this.
 
I could tell a few FSDO stories (from the Boston and Farmingdale offices years ago) that would give people nightmares. Mostly to do with CFI checkrides (an Arrow grounded as "unairworthy" for a frayed rear window curtain, etc.), but not exclusively. Suffice it to say that I avoid them whenever possible.

That said, I'm going to need both a LODA and a LOA within the next six months. Can anyone recommend an inspector at the Orlando FSDO who'd be willing and able to assist in a timely manner?
 
Mel, what all can DAR do?

My advice would be to call a DAR. While I have no argument with your position pertaining to the FSDO, They should know how to do this, DARs do this type of thing on a daily basis and typically know the procedure better than most ASIs.

Yes, it will cost more, but it will be done promptly and correctly. I'm actually surprised that the FSDO didn't suggest this.

Mel, had I known this was an option I would have gone that route in a heartbeat. From a paperwork standpoint, can a DAR do pretty much anything the FSDO can do?

I?m admittedly ignorant as to the powers and capabilities of you guys.

Scott
 
Mel, had I known this was an option I would have gone that route in a heartbeat. From a paperwork standpoint, can a DAR do pretty much anything the FSDO can do?
I?m admittedly ignorant as to the powers and capabilities of you guys.
Scott

DARs are trained in different areas of expertise. Each DAR is approved within "Function Codes". Most all DARs that can do Experimental Amateur-Built aircraft can issue Original and Recurrent Special Airworthiness Certificates (including, amended and replacement certificates).
 
Mel, had I known this was an option I would have gone that route in a heartbeat. From a paperwork standpoint, can a DAR do pretty much anything the FSDO can do?

I?m admittedly ignorant as to the powers and capabilities of you guys.

Scott

Here is the FAA's DAR search: https://designee.faa.gov/#/designeeLocator
And here is a list of codes: http://www.faa-aircraft-certification.com/dar-function-codes.html

I think you need a DAR-F with code 46 or 47 (LSA) but hopefully Mel (or someone else) can clarify.

I'm still years away from needing to go through that process. My dad has been dealing with similar issues with the local FSDO to get his jenny's cert. It's been about a year now. He finally contacted a DAR and things are moving forward.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think DARs can issue a Repairman certificate, pretty much have to use the FSDO.

I have the pleasure of having a Birmingham/North Florida FSDO agent in the hangar behind me, friendly guy. I think knowing him made the meeting for my Repairman go smoothly. So far at least, I only have the temporary issuance.
 
Back in 2002, up in the Boston area, my DAR handled my Repairman application. At the time, it was just another signed form I gave him which he passed along. The certificate showed up in the mail a few weeks later.

Things may be very different now, of course.
 
DARs may NOT issue Repairman Certificates. That must be done by the FSDO. A DAR MAY assist with the application, but not the actual issuance.

FSDO Function Codes for Experimental Amateur-Built Aircraft are 147 (propeller driven), 148 (turbojet powered), 149 (rotorcraft), and 150 (manned free balloons and airships)

MIDO Function Code for all Experimental Amateur-Built Aircraft is 46.
 
While a DAR might be the path of least resistance, we've already paid once for the service; why should we have to pay again? And I have a serious problem with 'privatizing' regulation.

Someone once told me to never accept a 'no' from someone who can't say 'yes'. (Go up another level, each time you hear 'no'.)

FWIW, one of the top reasons I maintain my memberships in both EAA and AOPA is for 'insurance' against these kinds of problems. Call them both & tell them your problems. This might be a case where instead of climbing from the bottom up, you're better off having the pressure come from the top down. Both organizations have access to people at the top. The legislative pressure points work well, too, but EAA/AOPA will know the shortest path to the person with authority to lean on the FSDO.
 
Thanks, and summary...

Guys, I guess the biggest reasons for my post were:
1.) Could I have done something differently (looks like DAR would have been the path of least resistance)

and

2.) Does anyone care (appears to be no).

By #2, I mean, it was crystal clear to me that when I lodged my concerns with the supervisor, he didn't care about the concerns -- he just wanted to get my paperwork in my hand so I would go away.

That appears to be the culture -- don't acknowledge any problem or solutions, just get the paperwork to the loudest, most persistent "customer" today, and then put your head down and ignore the rest.

With my analogy about my customers going elsewhere if I fail, and me having no option -- at least its nice to know I do have an option. I agree with Charlie -- it sucks to have to pay for a service we've already paid for, but just for the sake of my blood pressure and peace in my soul, I'll gladly pay a DAR for his time if I'm in this position again.
 
You just have to get your timing right. When I called the Rapid City, SD FSDO to schedule my inspection I was expecting a month or two or longer as I was on the opposite end of the state, he said "can you be ready in two weeks?".

Apparently he already had something scheduled with the A&P on my field. It was a busy two weeks to make sure everything was ready but the process went relatively smoothly and the cost was certainly right.

While I'm sure the experience is probably better with DARs they aren't inexpensive (if I recall correctly the one I called was something like $450 plus travel); like a previous poster said it doesn't sit right with me to have to pay for something my tax dollars are already paying for.
 
The FAA is a government agency funded by our tax dollars. The FSDO is a regional office of the FAA that is there to do FAA business with those that need it.
If anyone ever gets less than the service they think is reasonable, they should be using their voice and reporting it. Contacting an ASI's supervisor is one way, but that may hit a dead end and not go beyond that person.

The best way, is to use the FAA's own reporting system.
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/stakeholder_feedback/afx/field/sf_fsdo/
Doing this will spread the word much wider within the FAA organization. If enough people filed reports on a specific employee or entire FSDO office (depending on the circumstance), I think there would be action taken.

It is unfortunate that there are some offices that treat general aviation (experimental in particular) so poorly. Fortunately this is not universal within the FAA. As mentioned already, there are offices that are very accommodating to GA and experimental. Our FSDO here in Portland OR is one of those. Two guys specifically do a large portion of the work with experimentals and they are great to work with (I do so on a very regular basis).
BTW, the above reporting system can be used to report positive experiences with an office or specific individual as well. That can go a long way towards making them willing to help home builders (I am sure positive reports trickle down to supervisors and ultimately, performance reviews). I try and do this on at least an annual basis.

< I think having the above link in a sticky somewhere would be beneficial, if a moderator can think of a logical place to put it. If more people were reporting there bad experiences with particular FSDO's, perhaps changes would happen.....>
 
Unless you're getting a real inspection, you're comparing apples and oranges. I had Vic do my inspection and felt it was worth the money, because I wanted a real inspection in addition to the paperwork. I built this thing in my garage and wanted him to really go through it. He had a handful of items, none thankfully critical, but nonetheless, they were all issues I needed to correct.

The FAA is there to make sure you have your paperwork in order, and that's it. If you get any kind of inspection, it's a bonus, and I know some have had some luck with this. I watched my hangar mate's inspection with the FAA and there was no inspection of the plane other than to make sure he had his placards in place. It was all about paperwork and builder log
 
Unless you're getting a real inspection, you're comparing apples and oranges. I had Vic do my inspection and felt it was worth the money, because I wanted a real inspection in addition to the paperwork. I built this thing in my garage and wanted him to really go through it. He had a handful of items, none thankfully critical, but nonetheless, they were all issues I needed to correct.

The FAA is there to make sure you have your paperwork in order, and that's it. If you get any kind of inspection, it's a bonus, and I know some have had some luck with this. I watched my hangar mate's inspection with the FAA and there was no inspection of the plane other than to make sure he had his placards in place. It was all about paperwork and builder log

Technically, this is all that a DAR is required to do as well. Fortunately, the majority of DAR's (the good ones anyway) take a more personal involvement in the process. All of the DAR's I know will still encourage a builder to use as many experienced eyes to look over the project as possible, before they arrive for the final inspection. That way you are not putting full reliance on only them to catch an issue.
 
Technically, this is all that a DAR is required to do as well. Fortunately, the majority of DAR's (the good ones anyway) take a more personal involvement in the process. All of the DAR's I know will still encourage a builder to use as many experienced eyes to look over the project as possible, before they arrive for the final inspection. That way you are not putting full reliance on only them to catch an issue.

I did that of course, but if I'd spent the money on Vic that I did and only got a paperwork inspection, I'd have been very unhappy.

Edit: and to take that much money for paperwork only, that would have been deeply unethical and unprofessional.
 
The best way, is to use the FAA's own reporting system.
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/stakeholder_feedback/afx/field/sf_fsdo/

If enough people filed reports on a specific employee or entire FSDO office (depending on the circumstance), I think there would be action taken....

BTW, the above reporting system can be used to report positive experiences with an office or specific individual as well. That can go a long way towards making them willing to help home builders....

< I think having the above link in a sticky somewhere would be beneficial, if a moderator can think of a logical place to put it.

Excellent idea. Dovetails nicely with the current model in retail; online review and feedback regarding customer service is a big deal. And let's be sure to send in those positive reports.
 
Unless you're getting a real inspection, you're comparing apples and oranges. I had Vic do my inspection and felt it was worth the money, because I wanted a real inspection in addition to the paperwork. I built this thing in my garage and wanted him to really go through it. He had a handful of items, none thankfully critical, but nonetheless, they were all issues I needed to correct.

The FAA is there to make sure you have your paperwork in order, and that's it. If you get any kind of inspection, it's a bonus, and I know some have had some luck with this. I watched my hangar mate's inspection with the FAA and there was no inspection of the plane other than to make sure he had his placards in place. It was all about paperwork and builder log

This is an important distinction, for me the FSDO did do a cursory inspection and also had me pull the plane out for a run up, but it was certainly not a thorough inspection. the whole interaction inspection and paperwork including repairman certificate was about two maybe three hours if that gives you an indication.

However, I had plenty of other eyes look at my project regularly, and was already satisfied with my airplanes airworthiness. I had many inspections from friends on the field, including 2 a&p's and another home builder, all of whom looked for free. So I personally didn't feel the need to pay for another inspection. If you are looking to pay for additional eyes I agree that a good DAR with a lot of RV experience (Mel and Vic come to mind from my experience here) are probably worth what they charge for their inspection.

When it comes to airworthiness docs we all pay the FSDO inspector to do these inspections, and its very disappointing to hear how many are unwilling to provide decent service.
 
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Just to clarify...

My whole issue was paperwork and communication. No inspection, no "real" airworthiness issue...

I was changing an N number and needed the airworthiness and op lims to reflect the new number. That's it!
 
I highly suggest bringing these issues to Sean Elliott, EAA VP, govt advocacy. He can press these types of issues at high levels in the FAA. The FSDO should be responsive, even if it is to at least make you aware that you can use a DAR.
 
This is an important distinction, for me the FSDO did do a cursory inspection and also had me pull the plane out for a run up, but it was certainly not a thorough inspection. the whole interaction inspection and paperwork including repairman certificate was about two maybe three hours if that gives you an indication.

However, I had plenty of other eyes look at my project regularly, and was already satisfied with my airplanes airworthiness. I had many inspections from friends on the field, including 2 a&p's and another home builder, all of whom looked for free. So I personally didn't feel the need to pay for another inspection. If you are looking to pay for additional eyes I agree that a good DAR with a lot of RV experience (Mel and Vic come to mind from my experience here) are probably worth what than they charge for their inspection.

When it comes to airworthiness docs we all pay the FSDO inspector to do these inspections, and its very disappointing to hear how many are unwilling to provide decent service.

That was exactly my experience too... I took care of my inspections with multiple non-FAA eyes first.

Scottsdale MIDO was excellent to work with for certification, and I later had my Op Lims altered (FSDO) when I forgot to ask for night VFR and IFR options.

An inspector met me at a Freeway intersection 10 miles from my home with the corrected document in hand, saving a trip to the Scottsdale FSDO 100 miles away...:)

I'm going to file a positive report as noted.
 
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My whole issue was paperwork and communication. No inspection, no "real" airworthiness issue...

I was changing an N number and needed the airworthiness and op limits to reflect the new number. That's it!

You want bad service? Go to the North Dallas FSDO.

All I needed was to change the N Number on my AW certificates and this happened:

I had a inspector change my operating limitations to where I needed to have a single Engine AIRPLANE certificate to fly my ROTORCRAFT-Gyroplane.

When it came time to change the N Number on my RV-8 the same inspector then grounded it from flying at night when he removed that from my ops limitations.

That inspector is a total screw up. Supervisor's response: he's new and once they're hired we can't do anything about it.

Then another inspector I dealt with to get a LODA to teach in it wrote in the LODA that I could only train pilots who already have category and class certificates. Pretty hard to teach new students which is the purpose for the LODA.

After exactly ONE YEAR I finally got it resolved (after 2 complaints to FAA in Washington and 2 letters to my senators), well hopefully because I'm still waiting for the draft they went me by email to arrive in the mail, but it's all academic now because I ended up having to close the gyro training business and sell the gyro. Lost thousands of dollars. I'd sue them but that would mean I have to look at their faces and that would make me throw up.
 
To steal a phrase, “Some FSDOs are more equal than others.” I have experienced this as well.

Scott’s recommendation of reporting with web connect is the most effective in house reporting. Nothing worse than do do rolling down hill, as well as praise from the customer (US) reaching the worker who is missed by the supervisors oversight.
 
Then another inspector I dealt with to get a LODA to teach in it wrote in the LODA that I could only train pilots who already have category and class certificates. Pretty hard to teach new students which is the purpose for the LODA.
p.

The purpose of the LODA is to allow training, for hire, in an EAB, when that training cannot reasonably be done in a normally certified aircraft. The FAA will not issue a LODA for students to obtain catagory/class ratings, unless there are no gyro-coptors with standard certification.
 
Positive Experience - Greater Chicago FSDO

The best way, is to use the FAA's own reporting system.
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/stakeholder_feedback/afx/field/sf_fsdo/
Doing this will spread the word much wider within the FAA organization. If enough people filed reports on a specific employee or entire FSDO office (depending on the circumstance), I think there would be action taken.

< I think having the above link in a sticky somewhere would be beneficial, if a moderator can think of a logical place to put it. .....>

Thanks Scott, wish I could have had this link sooner, shame on me.

I have reported before, but I got my Repairman Certificate by getting a contact number from my DAR, then meeting with the FDSO rep at a McDonalds when he was traveling. It was convenient to us both. I remember a hiccup, but not enough to create a mental scar. Great guy and it seems he is very busy with a wide field of responsibilities. Getting a phone call was not so good, but emails were answered. He was very good for the meeting coordination. We exchanged cell phone numbers and that worked like normal people for a meeting venue change at the last minute. 15 min and done. He had the paperwork filled out and signed on the spot. 60 days later the card came in the mail.
 
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