VansAirForceForums  
Home > VansAirForceForums

- POSTING RULES
- Donate yearly (please).
- Advertise in here!

- Today's Posts | Insert Pics

  #51  
Old 05-05-2019, 06:23 AM
vic syracuse vic syracuse is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Locust Grove, GA
Posts: 2,529
Default

C'mon, Mark. Falcon Flight is a very small percentage of the arrivals, and they are card-carrying formation pilots. The Bonanzas number in the hundreds. They practice together and have been doing the mass arrival for a long time. They get airplanes on the ground faster than individually using the Fisk arrival.

No, don't start thinking we're going to get a bunch of RV's together somewhere so we can land in formation.

Vic
__________________
Vic Syracuse

Built RV-4, RV-6, 2-RV-10's, RV-7A, RV-8, Prescott Pusher, Kitfox Model II, Kitfox Speedster, Kitfox 7 Super Sport, Just Superstol, DAR, A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor/Flight Advisor, CFII-ASMEL/ASES
Kitplanes "Checkpoints" monthly column
EAA Homebuilt Council Chair/member EAA BOD
www.Baselegaviation.com
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 05-05-2019, 06:28 AM
RV6_flyer's Avatar
RV6_flyer RV6_flyer is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NC25
Posts: 3,315
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Burns View Post
2 abreast !! OMG LOL
Falcon Flight (RV's) in 2016 landed in 4-ship echelons!
Ok, not exactly abreast but pretty much the same thing.

Mark
2016 was the 3rd time the group landed in 4-ship echelons for arrival at AirVenture that I was in.
__________________
Gary A. Sobek
NC25 RV-6
Flying
3,400+ hours
Where is N157GS
Building RV-8 S/N: 80012

To most people, the sky is the limit.
To those who love aviation, the sky is home.
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 05-05-2019, 09:40 AM
BCP Boys's Avatar
BCP Boys BCP Boys is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Kennesaw, Ga
Posts: 749
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walt View Post
If the FAA ignores the issue they had with their controllers, which in my opinion was the single biggest problem, I don't expect to see anything different than last years cluster #@$#. It's a bloody miracle their wasn't a midair on Sunday last year.

Blaming the pilots for the conditions or not following "procedures" is baloney, the ATC situation was totally out of control.

I was in the mess when controllers were calling for 1 mile and then 2 mile spacing, and landing 1 aircraft on a runway at a time.
I can barely see an aircraft a mile in front of me, 2 miles no way. With 2 mile spacing they'd be lined up back to Oklahoma.

On Monday when I returned to try again the same nonsense was going on with ATC, nobody landing and no one being "allowed" past Ripon, I got the feeling the controllers just didn't feel like dealing with it so the easy way was just keep telling people to go away.
Not that the FAA is looking at this and i'm pretty sure my opinion doesn't matter a bit, but I agree with Walt 100%.

I was in that mess on Sunday because Saturday's weather kept me from getting North. The very first thing I noticed as I was listening prior to arriving was that ATC was asking for 1 mile separation. There simply isn't enough airspace on the map to be 1 mile apart. There were no less than 200 planes holding . . . Simple Math will tell you that equals to 200 miles. Obviously they don't have everyone at once in a line but if you measure around Green Lake before getting to RIPON, then from there to RIPON then to FISK, it's appx 35 miles. At 1 mile apart and literally hundreds of planes trying to get to FISK, the math just doesn't add up. Take Rush Lake out of the picture for a minute and you'll get a good understanding what happened last year. Last year there were 4 to 5 wide around the lake then ATC would simply say, "Okay RIPON is now open" and everyone would head towards RIPON (even cutting across the lake). Basically they were asking approximately 200 airplanes to line up 1 mile apart from RIPON to FISK and obviously that wasn't possible so they would close RIPON again and tell everyone that had not made it to RIPON to Hold over Green Lake. If you were between RIPON and FISK, you held over Rush Lake. This happened over and over again and planes kept coming in and adding to the problem.

How many years has the FAA been asking for 1/2 miles separation? Why did they change it last year? I believe going back to 1/2 mile separation and making better usage of ALL runways without closing runways for low passes for our military airplanes during high traffic time will be a HUGE step towards fixing last year's fiasco.
__________________
Amir
----------
RV-7 - My Ferrari in the sky
RV-10 - Partnered with a good friend

Supporting VAF since the first visit
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 05-05-2019, 10:45 AM
vic syracuse vic syracuse is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Locust Grove, GA
Posts: 2,529
Default

I think I have written enough here already about everyone's hard work and how a lot of people are working on LOTS of areas. For those of you who still just want to blame the controllers, you are welcome to your opinion.

The rest of us will work on the areas WE can control and TRUST that the others are working on their areas.

I'm done here with this thread. Watch for more info on this in columns from Jack, Charlie, and Paul.

Vic
__________________
Vic Syracuse

Built RV-4, RV-6, 2-RV-10's, RV-7A, RV-8, Prescott Pusher, Kitfox Model II, Kitfox Speedster, Kitfox 7 Super Sport, Just Superstol, DAR, A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor/Flight Advisor, CFII-ASMEL/ASES
Kitplanes "Checkpoints" monthly column
EAA Homebuilt Council Chair/member EAA BOD
www.Baselegaviation.com
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 05-13-2019, 09:00 AM
BigJohn BigJohn is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Gloversville, NY
Posts: 1,587
Default Pilot Behavior at AOPA Frederick Fly-in

After flying in to the AOPA event I feel compelled to make an addition to this thread, reinforcing several comments made in earlier posts. Certainly, the issues surrounding the arrival traffic problems at OSH have many facets, and this post is only addressed to one of those. Admittedly the Frederick event is very small compared to AirVenture, but the issue I am about to discuss applies to both situations.

As background information, this event had been well publicized for months in advance, and an arrival publication was readily available outlining in great detail the arrival and departure procedures. A few minutes study of this document should have been sufficient to get everyone briefed and ready to comply with the published procedures. The weather was good VFR, not perfect but perfectly safe.

Allow me to relate just a few of the incidents I observed, all related to pilot behavior.

While inbound on the published arrival route, and listening to FDK tower, it was obvious that there were several airplanes already in the pattern, and a gaggle of them coming down the published leg to the turn-in point at Fort Detric. Despite this, a call came in from an RV-8 flight of two requesting a 360-degree overhead approach. The tower ignored the first request. A minute later the second request came in and the controller responded, keeping his tone only slightly irritated, that there was heavy traffic in the area, and he would try to accommodate the request if possible.

After I turned in towards the airport and was about to enter downwind for runway 5 I heard the tower repeatedly calling out traffic to another airplane, and not getting any response. I figured out pretty quickly that that traffic was me! Soon after I picked up the traffic visually on a collision course and took evasive action.

After the noontime STOL demonstration a whole lot of airplanes decided to leave, resulting in a long lineup for the one departure runway. The published departure procedure was to follow the flagmen, and only contact tower when number one for takeoff. The trip to the runway took an hour. While the vast majority of the pilots in line were correctly and politely following procedures, a few were not, and those guys contributed to a long and frustrating process. Some pilots were calling in for takeoff clearance while they were several slots back from number one, causing confusion with the tower. One pilot apparently was not hearing the tower and kept calling for clearance. Finally, a good Samaritan in a Cirrus taxied up bedside him and gave him hand signals. Many pilots had filed IFR, even though the weather was good VFR, and that slowed up the whole line while they received their releases. One almost humorous radio call was from someone about 20 airplanes back asking for an intersection departure. One could almost hear everyone else thinking, “nice try, buddy.”

Sorry for the long rant. I’m just trying to make the point that while we can blame the FAA, EAA, and everyone else for the problems at OSH, we need to accept our share of the blame as pilots. Perhaps a wider education campaign would help. Maybe there should be a required online training course before flying into OSH? More (gasp) enforcement of willful violators? I think we need to be open to some of these ideas if we are to keep OSH safe. Just sayin. OK, have at me!
__________________
John Peck, CFII, A&P, EAA Tech Counselor, Flight Advisor.
“Master Pilot” Award, UFO Member.
RV-12 N37JP 120176 Flying since 2012.
One Week Wonder Build Team, OSH 2018.
VAF paid through 10/2019.
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 05-13-2019, 10:37 AM
DanH's Avatar
DanH DanH is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: 08A
Posts: 8,967
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJohn View Post
Despite this, a call came in from an RV-8 flight of two requesting a 360-degree overhead approach.
Oh yeah, those guys. I think they were at OSH a few years ago. Bypassed the Fisk approach entirely, and 45'ed into the 27 right downwind from Lake Butte des Morts...in formation.
__________________
Dan Horton
RV-8 SS
Barrett IO-390
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 05-13-2019, 10:51 AM
Kellym Kellym is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 97
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vic syracuse View Post
I think I have written enough here already about everyone's hard work and how a lot of people are working on LOTS of areas. For those of you who still just want to blame the controllers, you are welcome to your opinion.

The rest of us will work on the areas WE can control and TRUST that the others are working on their areas.

I'm done here with this thread. Watch for more info on this in columns from Jack, Charlie, and Paul.

Vic
Vic,
Thank you for all your efforts with HBC and this issue. I flew in Sat. morning, held for 30 min at Green lake, had to break out after Ripon because the 3 or more planes ahead of me couldn't/wouldn't manage more than 75 kts, more often 70, which is as slow as I am willing to go with my -10.
Still got in before noon.
A couple issues that I haven't heard mentioned, was apparently the grass was considered too soft for the mass arrivals to get to North 40, so during mass arrival 9/27 was used as taxiway, and the transponder issue.
I am pleased the transponder issue is resolved to the benefit of those of us with ADS-B. Now we need controllers at Fisk and Tower to have ADS-B displays to give them real time tail numbers, make/model, speed and altitude, as well as position.
Two years in a row I have seen poor performance on pilots arriving, unfamiliar with notam requirements, or just not complying, so until we clean up our act, we shouldn't be pointing fingers.
JMHO.
__________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA
EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD
RV-10 40866
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 05-13-2019, 03:57 PM
Low Pass's Avatar
Low Pass Low Pass is online now
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Houston
Posts: 1,969
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellym View Post
Two years in a row I have seen poor performance on pilots arriving, unfamiliar with notam requirements, or just not complying, so until we clean up our act, we shouldn't be pointing fingers.
JMHO.
First of all, thank you EAA volunteers and related support people. I do appreciate what you're doing. But I just can't let this go. I'm not an astronaut or brain surgeon, but I have been flying to Oshkosh regularly over the last 18-19 years. And to say that the pilots are any more of a factor now, or are a significantly different factor than they were 3 years ago, 5 years ago, or 10 years ago, is just not correct. I came in early in 2018 on Saturday. Sunday I sat right alongside rwy 36 and watched the landings that occurred every 1-5 mins (per plane) and listened to the controllers at FISKE *not* complying with the NOTAM.
__________________
Bryan

Houston

Last edited by Low Pass : 05-13-2019 at 05:07 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 05-13-2019, 04:07 PM
BigJohn BigJohn is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Gloversville, NY
Posts: 1,587
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Low Pass View Post
First of all, thank you EAA volunteers and related support people. I do appreciate what you're doing. But I just can't let this go. I'm not an astronaut or brain surgeon, but I have been flying to Oshkosh regularly over the last 18-19 years. And to say that the pilots are any more of a factor now, or are a different factor than they were 3 years ago, 5 years ago, or 10 years ago, is just not correct. I came in early in 2018 on Saturday. Sunday I sat right alongside rwy 36 and watched the landings that occurred every 1-5 mins (per plane) and listened to the controllers at Fiske *not* complying with the NOTAM.
Bryan,

I have been flying into OSH for the show since 1982. I agree, pilot behavior has not changed much. The problem is, there are so many more of us now, that the mistakes that are made compound much more rapidly. My point is, there is plenty of room for improvement in the pilot community. Most of us are not in a position to influence FAA or EAA or any other component of the system, but we ARE in a position to clean up our own act.

John
__________________
John Peck, CFII, A&P, EAA Tech Counselor, Flight Advisor.
“Master Pilot” Award, UFO Member.
RV-12 N37JP 120176 Flying since 2012.
One Week Wonder Build Team, OSH 2018.
VAF paid through 10/2019.
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 05-13-2019, 04:17 PM
Dugaru's Avatar
Dugaru Dugaru is online now
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Richmond VA, USA
Posts: 417
Default Wish I had thought of that

The text-message system is a GREAT idea.

I'd love to get a text if/when the hold gets saturated; something like "FREAKING FURBALL AT FISKE UFN" would be sufficient.

And if I inadvertently left my cell phone on at low altitude, which obviously I've never done due to FCC regulations, my in-flight situational awareness could skyrocket, all while at a distance from OSH permitting me to find a cheap hotel room.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by vic syracuse View Post
There will be a text message system to provide information to pilots on the way to Oshkosh to keep us informed of any status changes....
__________________
N929JA, 2007 RV-9A
Based W96: New Kent International Aerodrome
(near Richmond, VA USA)
2020 Dues Paid
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:36 PM.


The VAFForums come to you courtesy Delta Romeo, LLC. By viewing and participating in them you agree to build your plane using standardized methods and practices and to fly it safely and in accordance with the laws governing the country you are located in.