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Cheap portable proximity alerter is there an interest?

V

Vlad

Well Known Member
When you fly a lot something good always happens. Couple weeks ago I stopped at an airport where local pilots had a pig roast. We swapped lies and bragged how good we all are. Then I met those two Russian guys. Russian speaking I mean and both of them fly beat up rental airplanes :)

They have a project they are working on and they need couple beta testers and feedback. It's a portable proximity alerter. Cool little device I put almost 20 hours on it. Very simple works on 2 double A batteries. Has three red lights, one green and on/off switch. There is a sound alert too. It's intended for use in steam cockpits our glassy RV brethren might not find it appealing :)


 
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good idea

I found the early Zaon "radar detectors" useful. Particularly out flying in a low density area. In a busy area, we tend to have heightened awareness that traffic may be a hazard. Out in remote areas, the quiet is lulling.
Having a beep or light to say a transponder is near.... had pretty good utility.
I was sorry to see the commercial product go under so quickly. Probably with ADS-B coming, they saw it was going to be an uphill battle.
A homebrew receiver... or inexpensive commercial product would sell to a number of pilots. They simply have to be aware of the limitations of such a 1090 receiver....
 
Reprint from the manual

Purpose. This airplane proximity alerter is designed to be a low cost device for pilots who rent airplanes to draw your attention when another aircraft is getting dangerously close, typically - less than 2 nautical mile.

Principle of work. The device is designed to receive the signals that are radiated by other airplanes’ transponders. Since the antenna is not directional, the airplane can be anywhere around your plane.

Controls. There is only one switch in this device. It has 2 positions: OFF(down); ON(up).

Indication.
Power light. When the device is turned on, the green power light located at the right from the switch is lit indicating that the device is on. In addition, this green light will blink every time the device receives the signal from your own transponder. This feature gives you indication that the device is working properly and that your transponder is working as well and you are in the area where the secondary surveillance radar is operating. Normally, this green light will blink once or twice per second when in the air. On the ground it may or may not be blinking depending on the airport landscape and if the runway or taxi way is in a radar shadow.

Traffic Alert. Indication of the traffic consists of three RED lights located horizontally on the left of the front panel and sound alert. When an airplane is indicated for the first time a short sound is produced to draw pilot’s attention.
One light indicates an airplane 1-2 miles away. It is important to keep in mind that due to differences in transponder power and position of the traffic (plane banking or being much below) the signal strength can vary significantly and some planes could be actually closer or farther, so do your normal eye scan of the sky.
Two lights indicate an airplane 0.5-1 mile away. Basically it means that there is a plane relatively close. Do extra scanning and look in all directions, not only forward. Again, if after a careful scanning you still don’t see the traffic, it is normal. The traffic can be behind you or right above or below your plane where you cannot possibly see it because of your own fuselage or wings.
Three lights indication means that traffic is close, <0.5 miles, especially if the 3-light signal persists. Persistent 3-light indication means there is a plane near-by especially if you have had a steady 2-light indication before that. In this case you should make an extra effort to look for traffic and scan the sky. You may want to make some wing rocking to be able to see more of the sky and make yourself more visible too. If the traffic is in your way and makes a 3-light signal you should already see it. Make an extra scan. If you still don’t see it, it could be behind, above or below. Remember, your own fuselage and wings don’t allow you to see all the traffic around. If the 3-light signal stays on for more than 3 seconds a Sound Alert will be produced. It is designed to alert the pilot who is not watching the device at the moment and doesn’t see the lights. The 3 second silence is meant to avoid irritating sound on occasional 3-light blinking produced by fast traffic above.

Battery life. About 20+ hours on one set of two AA batteries located in the back under rubber cover. Intensity of the green light indicates the battery life remaining. If green light can be seen, however weak, the unit is operational.

Night Mode. If you use this device at night, you might want to reduce the intensity of the lights. To do so, when the unit is ON, turn the unit OFF and quickly back ON. The light intensity will be reduced.




Moderators it's a casual post not a sale or promotion. Russian out :D
 
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ccsmith51 said:
Neat idea, any idea of cost?
Click to expand...

Hi! I am one of those who asked Vlad to test the Receiver (we call it Puppy, by the way..).
We want to make it really simple and not expensive - below $200.
Any comments and questions, before and after testing, are welcome!
 
Do you mean to assemble it at home?
It has quite a few descreete electronic parts to be soldered down to the board..
The cost is highly depends on the production volume. So we try to estimate how many people would be interested to have it.
 
VLad, thanks for introductions
Borba, thanks for coming on board and answering question. Quick questions:
How is it different (if it is different) than the Zaon. Many of us had those and have moved on to ADBS due to its popularity but I'm finding that as of right now, the ADSB system as it stands today is flawed and gives a false sense of comfort/security (IMHO).
 
One also needs to remember that these devices are "passive". i.e. Your transponder does not transmit continuously. It transmits only when interrogated by ground radar or a TCAS from another aircraft.
 
Amir,
I have the Zaon MRX - the more simple of their units. It displays the distance to the target and the altitude relative to your plane, it costs around $450. Compare to this unit our Puppy does not show the numeric distance and altitude. Our unit is the "attention getting" device, which has the three gradations of the distance to the target.
Performance wise our unit is faster in target detection and has no delay to indicate a new target or multiple targets, in most cases.
When I fly with two those devices in front of me, the Puppy is usually quicker to notify me than Zaon.
That is very important difference when you are head on the target - very limited time to react.
I did not have the pre-Zaon devices so cannot compare.
 
I place below the response from my colleague and friend who created the Receiver - Puppy - device:

"=======================
ADSB doesn?t show all the planes yet. Those that are not equipped with ADSB transmitters may or may not show. Some areas are still not covered. This situation will continue till 2020 and even after that not every airplane has to be equipped, only in areas like NY NJ etc. 99% of pilots are flying without any TCAS system. We still don?t understand why. Looks like a few hundreds of $$$ are more important than life.

About our device: It is really inexpensive way to have a little ?safety net? that will alert you if you buried your eyes into a map, gps or dash board. Sometimes it happens, especially in a strange land, especially when you are low on fuel, in a hurry or lost. In most cases it will give a last moment alert giving you at least 20-30 seconds to react. That?s plenty. It is not a real radar, but it doesn?t cost like a real radar either. It should be $160-180 depending on production volume. If we could sell 1000 units per year the price would be on the low side of the range. But we don?t see so far enough or interest, even though to us it is strange. We are flying with them for years now and cannot imagine flying without them.

Design situation: The model is fully designed and ready for production. We don?t need to tweak it any more, really. It is designed entirely by us, two, and is meant to last forever. There are no parts in it that have aging and we planned to have a 5 year warranty. No kidding. But in reality, if you don?t brutally abuse, it will last for decades. We have prototypes that have been used, abused and reworked-re-soldered-rewired 100 times and are still working fine. This also brings the question if this device could be sold as a kit for someone to finish it. The short answer is no. It has well over 200 parts in it, and it is totally unthinkable for anyone to put it together. We do it, we test it on equipment that doesn?t exist in an average household, we stand behind it!! It is supposed to save lives, not a few bucks.

Every year in USA, some 10-15 mid-air collisions happen. Probably, 99% would be avoided if all pilots had AT LEAST SOMETHING. That guy over Hudson River would have been alerted (in our estimation and experiments that we conducted over the Hudson River) about 20 seconds before the crash with audible alert . He was totally consumed by tuning the radio to Newark controller frequency and wasn?t even looking.

Well, like they say: we report, you decide."

Leo
=======================
 
Borba, if it goes into production, I will pay $200 for one.
I have been inside the Zaon. As mentioned, a kit is out of the question.
Surface mount components operating at those frequencies are just too small these days for the "Heathkit" type builder.
I saw lots of Zaon units for years. The larger unit was simply four of the smaller receivers in one box... with a DF circuit to resolve (crude... but simple) which way the threat was coming from. The single receiver will do just as you say, make you go heads up when it beeps. Most transponders are blinking the reply light quite often. Buyers can judge for themselves whether their particular area is devoid of signals.
How are you eliminating the onboard transponder signal?
Thanks for posting the initial info here on Van's Airforce. There are over 21,000 registered readers here by the way.
 
borba said:
ADSB doesn?t show all the planes yet. Those that are not equipped with ADSB transmitters may or may not show.... 99% of pilots are flying without any TCAS system.
Click to expand...

If you are in a radar coverage volume, and properly ADS-B equipped, every plane with a transponder shows.

At least 10,000 aircraft are equipped with a fully functioning ADS-B IN and OUT system right now, about 7% of all aircraft in the USA. Add in the 30,000 aircraft required to have actual TCAS, and you're at about 27% of all aircraft with functioning traffic alerting systems.

borba said:
Every year in USA, some 10-15 mid-air collisions happen.
Click to expand...

In 2012, there were 3 fatal mid-airs and 3 non-fatal mid-airs. In 2013, 3 fatal, two non-fatal. In 2014, there were 3 fatal, 1 non-fatal.
 
This looks to be similar to the Monroy ATD devices that have been around for years as both portable or panel mounted units.
 
Hello everyone!

Hi, I am Leo, the other guy in the Puppy's "design team".
Quick overview. Zaon had 3 models: one for $1600, later $1300 showing proximity, altitude and direction. That's the one having 4 receivers.
The other model, most popular, for $450 showing proximity and altitude of the closes target. And one for $270 that only showed proximity. The later was a total disaster and nobody wanted to use it even after buying it. Their problem was that they were showing the smallest signal which corresponded to 5-7 mile radius. Yes, you guessed it right, it was always blinking. They had a line of 10 LEDs that 2-3 of them were always blinking.
Our device also shows proximity only, but we did a thorough job on determining what to show and what not. So, we show only signals that seem already dangerous as opposed to everything. So, Zaon discontinued that model long ago.
The 450 model id pretty good, but has one problem. Unless they can detect altitude, they don't show the target at all. So, if transponder is not in mode C, by chance, they don't show. The other issue with that is when there are many planes around, they interfere with each other and the altitude reading can be corrupted. We had many instances when a plane was on a parallel course head on (but to the side) and Zaon wouldn't show it till it actually passed already. Zaon is good tracking planes that are far, it shows altitude. We don't. We intended to be really inexpensive. And this simplicity makes it work very fast as soon as it determines that the plane is close. There is another feature we have: your own transponder transmits a strong signal. That signal reflects from any metal and then we receive it too. So, if you are flying into a water tower or TV antenna, or into a plane that doesn't even have a transponder (like J-3 Cub) you will get some alert 10-15 seconds ahead of collision. Neither Zaon nor ADSB will give you that.
Monroe is similar to Zaon with altitude and costs 700.

There was a question how we distinguish our own transponder. Well, for one it is a strong signal. But the level is not everything. We developed a method that we will patent if we go into production. So, sorry, no further details on that. :) Try to reverse-engineer it if you can :)
As to the number of collisions per year, my numbers were very old. I guess, people are flying a lot less these days. We used to have 4 times the number of planes on our field. Collisions reduced too, a good side effect.
However, I have to say, a few months ago, I was flying without the device, simply forgot it on the ground. And I had a very close call. A plane came from the right side on exactly the same altitude 3000 and I had to pull up sharply to avoid it. I saw it about 5-6 seconds before we would have collided and he apparently didn't see me at all because he did absolutely nothing. So, the statistics doesn't count the grey hair people get in some flights.
Well, we will build a few units and let those who want to test them. And if you want to keep it, we will work something out. We are friendly people :)

Sorry if my message is a bit too long, I had to explain a lot.
Leo
 
leos said:
There is another feature we have: your own transponder transmits a strong signal. That signal reflects from any metal and then we receive it too. So, if you are flying into a water tower or TV antenna, or into a plane that doesn't even have a transponder (like J-3 Cub) you will get some alert 10-15 seconds ahead of collision.
Click to expand...

How do you prevent it from going off any time you are near the ground?

The math of your own 300W transponder reflecting off a mostly fabric airplane, or a fiberglass airplane, when that reflection would be multiple orders of magnitude less powerful than if it had it's own 300W transponder doesn't quite make sense. Have you tested that this actually works?
 
It's such a simple device, operationally speaking, that a few hours of flight time will tell the tale. Put me on the tester list. I base under a TRSA veil with mixed GA, airline and military traffic.

Really interesting would be flying it alongside an ADSB system...which I can also arrange.
 
This thread is going to disappear in 2 weeks.
Should it be moved out from "Temp / Test / Misc" ?

[Done.; S. Buchanan]
 
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RF course

Quick update: we are building a few of these devises and will try to accommodate all who want to try. Just be a bit patient, we need to order some parts too.
The question of reflections: If you fly low over metal constructions on the ground it will show one or two lights depending on how close. In some airports, metal hangars are placed along the runway, it will surely make it go off. We could block it, but then it will also block some airplanes too, so we decided that it isn't really a big deal since you know that it happens. Whenever you get an alert you look forward first. 500 ft above the ground these things stop.
Reflections from a plane. Yes, they are smaller in signal, but they are enough to trigger the smallest alert when being actually 300-400 ft away. Very small time to react, but a lot better than nothing. A water tower or antenna will generate an alert 1000 ft away. Very useful at night.
 
Put me on the list please. I fly under Class C airspace with lots of commercial and some military traffic in the area.
 
These guys in the UK are producing an ADSB receiver to give traffic information to 3rd party devices (running software like SkyDemon and Runway HD) at a pretty low cost. it also includes "peer to peer" traffic alerting via an open protocol (P3i).

PilotAware.com
 
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Dave_Boxall said:
it also include "peer to peer" traffic alerting via an open protocol (P3i).
Click to expand...
Finally! Ever since the whole ADS-B thing started i've been wondering if a peer-to-peer system would be possible. The biggest problem that i'd always expected is in defining a standard that everyone would agree to use, and that the certified world would agree to certify and use as well. It would be great if this takes off...
 
No, the biggest problem is to convince people to use ANYTHING :)
How many times I heard people telling me stories about a "close call" near collision situation and NEVER a person would say "I want to buy a device that would alert me". Never. Personally, I had 5-6 really close calls in my 15 years of flying and I feel very uncomfortable flying without our Puppy. As a matter of fact, we started working on this after we barely avoided a head on collision. It was a classic case when both planes turned to the right steeply and we were so close we could see the tail number and the person in the cockpit. And 2 years later we had a prototype that could determine direction, distance and altitude of the target. But, we would need some serious investment to make a commercial product out of it and nobody would want to do that because nobody believed that people would pay a $1k for something like this. Then Zaon came up with their "4-reciever" design and we abandoned the "full" version and decided to make the lowest cost possible primitive, but working alerter in a hope that people would want to spend , say $150-200 for improved safety.

Well. We are building the units and will have them for anyone who wants to try. Actually, the PC boards are already built and tested, we are waiting for the plastic packages to arrive, they take some time. Probably 2 weeks.

Stay tuned.
 
Currently, the Monroy ATD-300+ detects all mode A, C and S (ADS-B) traffic with altitude, range and azimuth.

The only restriction is that you must be in radar coverage (including TCAS interrogations or ADS-B 1090ES pings). So far, so good, but in the USA ADS-B position can also be transmitted on UAT, which is 978 MHz. The ATD-300 is blind to the UAT transmissions.

Having the dual mode ASD-B is a decision made by the FAA early on that complicates the design of passive safety devices. Europe does not use it.

So, the best passive device should have 1090 A/B/S and 978 UAT receivers to get complete air-air coverage. After 2020 in the USA, this will make all transponder and UAT equipped aircraft visible, even outside of ground radar coverage.
 
Snowflake said:
Finally! Ever since the whole ADS-B thing started i've been wondering if a peer-to-peer system would be possible. The biggest problem that i'd always expected is in defining a standard that everyone would agree to use, and that the certified world would agree to certify and use as well. It would be great if this takes off...
Click to expand...

Yes, I am building two of their units as we speak. The group is very active and the device receives 1090Mhz ADSB, can use GPS, and provides peer to peer on 868 Mhz.

It is based on the Raspberry Pi 2 and uses a transceiver available from Wireless Things in the UK. Cost is low; think of the 'stratux' and add a transceiver and one less RDL.

I have asked them to consider adding another RDL for reception of the weather that is available from US stations; that would be icing on the cake!
 
I couldn't find anywhere the Monroe device that you were talking about, the 300+. Aircraft spruce has only the 300 that has no azimuth. And Sporty's don't have even that. Do you know where it is being sold?
 
vansrv8 said:
Yes, I am building two of their units as we speak. The group is very active and the device receives 1090Mhz ADSB, can use GPS, and provides peer to peer on 868 Mhz.
Click to expand...

868MHz is only an ISM band in Europe. Using this in North America or Australia would be illegal. 868 MHz in the USA is a public safety frequency.
 
vansrv8 said:
It is based on the Raspberry Pi 2 and uses a transceiver available from Wireless Things in the UK. Cost is low; think of the 'stratux' and add a transceiver and one less RDL.
Click to expand...
Shut up and take my money already! :)

I went to the reddit page and saw this posted just yesterday... Metars/Tafs For Canadian Stations not included in FIS-B data

That kinda sucks, as I was hoping to get coverage in my area given how close to the border I am. I understood that you can receive the FIS-B data as much as 50 miles north of the border in the Vancouver area, if you're at altitude. But even that won't be of much use if all you can see is US stations. Don't Americans want to see Canadian stations as they fly north?
 
Jordan1976 said:
868MHz is only an ISM band in Europe. Using this in North America or Australia would be illegal. 868 MHz in the USA is a public safety frequency.
Click to expand...

Yes, you are correct. Different countries have different unlicensed freqs available. Here in Canada, we share the similar freqs as you do in the US.The transceiver used in this project is available in 433,868, and 915 MHz.

This peer to peer and reception of 1090 MHz ADSB makes a worthwhile project and as stated is catching on with a lot of users in Europe.

Perhaps it is a good idea here in North America also....
 
vansrv8 said:
Yes, I am building two of their units as we speak. The group is very active and the device receives 1090Mhz ADSB, can use GPS, and provides peer to peer on 868 Mhz.

It is based on the Raspberry Pi 2 and uses a transceiver available from Wireless Things in the UK. Cost is low; think of the 'stratux' and add a transceiver and one less RDL.

I have asked them to consider adding another RDL for reception of the weather that is available from US stations; that would be icing on the cake!
Click to expand...

Lookup aprs. My handheld yaesu fd2 and decode the aprs packets and display distance and direction.
 
I used this device, or one like it, several years ago on a cross country to California and Oregon. It does alert you to traffic, the challenge in finding it visually since it is non directional.

I was alerted many times and spend a lot time scanning for the traffic which I suppose is a good idea anyhow, with or without the alert. :)
 
56 hours flying with "Puppy the Alerter" so far. Good experience overall. It "barks" though while sitting by a metal hangar or taxiing by a row of aircrafts but developers say it's normal. You'll get used to it. :)
 
It's coming soon.

OK, guys, we got the parts we needed, so we will complete a few units within days. So, there were a few people who wanted to try. We have to think of how to organize this trial. Suggestions welcome.
Leo
 
100+ hours on the unit and it performs as advertised. Consumes batteries though but the manufacturer says it's normal. Tomorrow I meet with developers and they will swap my device for a newer modernized one. I will be roaming the country for 4 days giving Puppy II an excellent workout. I will keep you posted.


 
DanH said:
It's such a simple device, operationally speaking, that a few hours of flight time will tell the tale. Put me on the tester list. I base under a TRSA veil with mixed GA, airline and military traffic.

Really interesting would be flying it alongside an ADSB system...which I can also arrange.
Click to expand...

DanH, we have the unit for you to test. Please send your address to [email protected]
With respect!
Boris
 
The developers of the alerter have several units ready for beta testers. They received only one request so far. Those expressed interest in testing please send them your address.
 
Im interested.
sounds like a cool cheap way to get some traffic awareness.

let me know if possible.

thanks
 
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