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What does a Garmin 430W give me?

J

jchang10

Well Known Member
I have a general broad question here. Having flown now for 3 months and 85 hours, I now want to get my IFR ticket. However, I designed a VFR panel, to keep things simple during the build, and want to figure out what I need to do to be able to do my IFR training in my own plane, ideally.

My panel is currently a single Skyview 10" display, Skyview GPS, single ADAHRS, single SL-30 (nav,com) and a dual axis Skyview autopilot. Basically, it sounds like I need a "certified" GPS, the most popular of which is the Garmin 430W. Indeed, looking around at other IFR capable panels with AFS, GRT, and even G3X EFIS's, i see a lot of Garmin 430 or newer GTN units.

Obviously, upgrading to a 430W or GTN is a lot of money. I just want to know exactly what I am getting for that dollar. I can see how you get a lot for your money when upgrading from a 6-pack in a cessna: moving map gps, flight planning capabilities, AF/D, terrain, etc.

However, many of us already have those features in our experimental glass panel EFISs. I already get all of that with my Skyview EFIS. I will definitely get a second (primary or secondary) nav and com radio, i get that. How about all those other features like moving map, terrain, flight planning, alerts, etc? I am not clear on how well integrated the various EFIS's are with the respective 430W/GTNs.

Do people use their main EFIS as primary and look at the Garmins as a backup only? Are some of the EFISs well integrated with the Garmins so that a flight plan can be transferred to them?

Thanks for any insights!
Jae

Updated: I will also add I have a GTX-327 transponder. I am fully night capable with lights/navlights, etc. And an Ipad with Foreflight.
 
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Your SL30 is your ticket....

You have your duly certified VOR / Localizer Nav com radio and you can display it's output on the Skyview. However, you are limited in your selection of approaches (no GPS). A certified GPS is not required for IFR, but it is very smart to have one. Options. It's all about options and giving yourself the best opportunity to manage IFR flight. I have the GTN 750 and actually got rid of my new SL30 (to the disagreement of many on this board). Did you mention transponder, lights? The Dynon GPS is great backup to get you out of trouble if you somehow lost your SL30 signal, but the Dynon is not a legal IFR nav instrument. At least, I don't think so.
 
A non-certified GPS can only be used as an aid but not as a primary source for navigation.

You already have a SL30 which you can do ILS/VOR type approach but not any type of GPS. With a 430, you will be able to shoot precision and non-precision GPS approach which are becoming ever more popular and available. Of course, it will give you a redundant ILS/VOR and using its database, it is much more than just a VOR.

So in short, it will give you lots more capability and in my opinion added tools for safety if you are planning on going the IFR route.

As for the cost, you will need to investigate what you will need for the Skyview to receive and utilize all the capabilities of a 430W.
 
agree with the previous response. You are already set without spending another dime to start your IFR training. You do not need an IFR certified GPS to fly IFR. Of course, it should be obvious that having one would be easier on you and make life simple when flying in the system but your panel already has everything needed to get your ticket. Spend the money you would have sunk into an IFR GPS on fuel and training and you will be way ahead of the game.
 
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Yep

Previous posters are on the right track here. The 430w (or GTN) simply gives you the most IFR navigation capability you can stuff into your panel. Operationally, that translates into more options for getting to where you want to go.

I also agree that it's a great idea to get your instrument rating before making any panel mods. I was designing a panel for my RV4 as I started working on my IFR ticket. After getting the rating and doing some real-world IFR flying, I made a lot of changes to the panel design, because the IFR flying had taught me a lot about what I wanted and needed in the panel. When the time came to write the check and build the panel, I knew I had a setup I would be happy with.

M
 
Interesting. The responses are pretty much in agreement so far, and not what i expected. I thought i would need to spend more money and time upgrading my panel right now, so I could complete the instrument training all at once time without stalling. I did not want to pass the written test, only to be blocked to complete the practical flight training until I could upgrade the panel.

Thus, it sounds like the consensus recommendation so far is to just go ahead and start the instrument training with my current panel. Thus, with my panel, I gather most of the practical flight training will just be focused more on ground-based navigation or VORs with my single SL-30? I wonder if a single SL-30 is good enough to do the practical flight training?

Also, I wonder if it is still possible to do some practical flight training for GPS approaches. I understand I cannot legally fly IFR, but maybe I can still do the GPS practical flight training with my non-certified Dynon GPS, since the training will be technically VFR anyway, right?

Thanks again,
Jae
 
Backup Attitude

You will also need a way to demonstrate partial panel operation at some point in your training and check. Doing this with just a single ADHARS and no secondary Attitude, Altitude and Airspeed may prove difficult also.

You may fly legal IFR without a certified GPS, you just can't file to an airport that GPS is your only option without an alternate with that has another legal for you approach.
 
Good Point

RV8iator said:
You will also need a way to demonstrate partial panel operation at some point in your training and check. Doing this with just a single ADHARS and no secondary Attitude, Altitude and Airspeed may prove difficult also.

You may fly legal IFR without a certified GPS, you just can't file to an airport that GPS is your only option without an alternate with that has another legal for you approach.
Click to expand...

The whole purpose of partial panel is to learn how to stay upright and maintain directional awareness and control in the event of a system or instrument "failure". With the old six pack, failure of the vacuum cost you attitude and heading indicators. Your backups were pitot static, magnetic and electric. Lose electrical power, and you still had vacuum and pitot static. Lose pitot static... You get my drift. Three independent systems. Four if you count the compass.
Someday, I hope to put an EFIS in my plane. It won't be without backups. Fly long enough and you'll probably experience at least one failure of every system on board. Backups make it a non-event, and they need to be part of your training-it's required.
Terry, CFI
RV9A N323TP
 
I just obtained my ifr rating in my rv-10 this past summer with only a vfr gps and sl-30 for navigation. To make things more interesting, a hurricane had just hit the east coast and many of the vors and associated approaches were out of service due to power loss. I was still able to complete the check ride without the ifr gps.

The vfr gps is a great backup, but you may want to consider some sort of backup instruments. I have an inexpensive altimeter, airspeed, and artificial horizon from trutrak that function better than the standard 6 pack. Makes me feel much better when in the clouds.

One thing I did early on was have a discussion with my examiner to make sure he was comfortable with giving a checkride in my plane and setup. I would suggest doing this, and then start training.

Aaron
 
Lots!

jchang10 said:
Obviously, upgrading to a 430W or GTN is a lot of money. I just want to know exactly what I am getting for that dollar. Thanks for any insights!
Jae

Updated: I will also add I have a GTX-327 transponder. I am fully night capable with lights/navlights, etc.
Click to expand...

You can select the runway and which approach you wish to use after arrival, near your destination. You'll be prompted by the unit to "Load" or "Activate." You can do this before you take off, if you'd like. When you get near your destination, you can "Activate" the approach that you previously selected and then fly it, or couple it to your autopilot.

The 430 will depict the approach course and all of the IAF's and the FAF. It will also tell you.."Turn to 3XX degrees in 7 seconds, 6 seconds, 5 seconds and so on...plus the ETA to the next waypoint/FAF. When you reach the DH, it will go into "Susp" mode and stop the approach there. Pressing the button right under the "Susp" warning, puts it into missed approach mode and the missed waypoint appears, with guidance to it. When you get there, it'll even show you how to enter the holding pattern there, whether teardrop or parallel entry...it's drawn on the screen!

With the proper autopilot, it'll fly the whole sequence, while you spectate:) and mind the throttle.


It's quite the cat's meeow!

Best,
 
Thanks for all of the feedback. I will be researching all the recommendations in more detail.

AaronG, that is a good recommendation, to ask the DE on some guidance about flying the checkride in my own -10.

I currently do not have any backup instruments other than looking out the window and the feeling in my butt. I left space in my panel and wired pitot and static lines for them but alas, other priorities took precedence in the finishing phase.

Jae
 
430W

The advantage of the 430W over the 430 is you now have the use of many smaller airports that have only GPS approches
 
After watching some youtube training videos for the Garmin units, I have a better idea of what the Garmins provide. At least for IFR flying, it certainly seems like the Garmin display would be the primary display used for flight planning at least. If the Dynon autopilot can fly the Garmin flight plan, then that certainly seems like a big bonus.

The Garmin units provide a lot of features, esp for IFR flying, above and beyond just the certified GPS feed. They also pack in a lot of other "nice to have" features which I never knew i needed nor wanted such as a remote audio panel, remote transponder, and even a touchscreen (in the new GTN series).

In a nutshell, it seems like the various companies are competing for panel real estate. Features from different companies seem be overlapping each other more and more. I avoided this initial confusion by trying to stick with a single vendor such as Dynon. This plan was okay for a VFR panel.

For an IFR panel, i now have no choice but to integrate with Garmin units which duplicates features with Skyview. It will basically be like doubling the cost of my panel by duplicating the display and many features when the times comes to go this route.

I think my plan initially will be to follow the recommended advice above. I will look into what I need to update to satisfy the PTS and DE especially wrt to the partial panel procedures. Spend the money to obtain the rating first. Then lastly look into the certified GPS, which all of its bells and whistles.
 
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One other consideration for training and your eventual checkride. The PTS calls for you to demonstrate 1 precision and 2 non-precision approaches. With an SL 30, you can only knock out 2 of those (ILS and VOR). You'll need either an ADF or IFR GPS to knock out the 2nd non-precision approach.

Your current panel is fine if you already had the rating and were willing to fly with the limitations already mentioned, but it won't cut it for training or the checkride, IMO.
 
LOC

Todd,
I hate to pick at nits but I believe that a LOC approach will work fine as a second Non-precision approach using the SL30.
 
The Dynon autopilot will couple to the 430 W and fly your approach but it will not fly the glideslope. You have to do that yourself which is not difficult. As Pierre said the really cool thing is that the Dynon auto pilot will fly the missed approach and the entire holding pattern on its own. All you have to do at missed is get some altitude and then set the altitude on the autopilot to to published missed approach altitude and then you have time to go to plan B while the airplane flies the missed approach.

John Morgan:)
 
MarkW said:
Todd,
I hate to pick at nits but I believe that a LOC approach will work fine as a second Non-precision approach using the SL30.
Click to expand...

Mark no worries--Yep, I stand corrected. The SL30 has all three approaches covered. I still like having more options than a single Nav receiver, whether it be a 2nd Nav, GPS, or even an ADF.
 
Jae,

I'm a CFII over at Livermore; finished my -10 10 months ago. Also, I'm currently instructing another -10 pilot here at LVK for his instrument rating (he's basically done now). I suggested an examiner for him to contact and see if he'll fly in an experimental. So that's on-going.

If you'd like to fly over to LVK some day I'd be happy to talk, informally (no charge, no agenda) about ifr training.

I like to train in actual as much as possible; so far I've been able to get some actual imc experience for all my instrument students.

However, there is no way I'd fly in actual IMC in your aircraft until you get a back-up to the primary (Dynon) flight instruments. If that panel were to die, you'd be in real trouble in IMC as currently equipped.

As others have noted, a single SL-30 is sufficient for navigation. And the non-certified GPS will serve as an emergency back up.

To save $1k, consider a Garmin 420W (no VOR) rather than the 430W.

Besides what the other posters have already said, one more thing to consider: For an ILS you need to identify the final approach fix, aka Outer Marker. Do you have marker beacons? A certified GPS can substitute. Many ILS approaches (LVK for one) have the note "ADF Required" (it's needed for the missed approach procedure). A certified GPS can substitute. In short, there's a whole bunch of little things that all add up, besides the obvious of getting access to GPS approaches which are springing up everywhere. In point of fact, you're based at HAF. One of the main reasons for getting the rating is so you can get home without tempting fate (scud running). The only approaches into HAF are GPS approaches.So yes, you can learn without a certified GPS. But you'll want one.

You can send me an email to <[email protected]> if you'd like to meet and talk.
 
430 is worth the $$$

In my opinion, the 430 I have is indispensable for IFR flight. I have a 2-screen Grand Rapids Horizon system with GRT Sport backup. No round dials. As much as I love the GRTs, I'd give them up before the 430. It's got too much real-world capability. You can certainly do with less, but the situational awareness it provides can't be beat ( not counting the GTNs). I'm not up to speed on its ability to integrate with Dynon, but assuming they can talk to each other, it's a fantastic setup. with the GTNs coming out, you should be able to get a used 430 for a lot less. I'd get the 430W if you can. It wasn't available when I bought, and I didn't upgrade before the price went way up.

That's my two cents...
 
BobTurner said:
Jae,

I'm a CFII over at Livermore; finished my -10 10 months ago. Also, I'm currently instructing another -10 pilot here at LVK for his instrument rating (he's basically done now). I suggested an examiner for him to contact and see if he'll fly in an experimental. So that's on-going.

If you'd like to fly over to LVK some day I'd be happy to talk, informally (no charge, no agenda) about ifr training.
Click to expand...

Bob, any chance I might be able to get the same offer??
 
Bob... Thanks for this. I think you hit the nail on the head with your reply and have verified all my research these past few weeks.

I have come to discover that it really is a lot of "little" things that add up to the big picture. I did some practice hood training at night the other day and even knowing where the light switch was to identify my switches was a big deal, esp at night. Okay, now i get it why people spend $50 per lighted switch vs. the simple toggle switches. :)

I will follow-up with you via private message.

Thanks again,
Jae

BobTurner said:
In short, there's a whole bunch of little things that all add up, besides the obvious of getting access to GPS approaches which are springing up everywhere. In point of fact, you're based at HAF. One of the main reasons for getting the rating is so you can get home without tempting fate (scud running). The only approaches into HAF are GPS approaches.So yes, you can learn without a certified GPS. But you'll want one.
Click to expand...
 
Mike (or anyone),

I'm always happy to talk aviation. Send me an email. Best days for me to be at LVK are anytime Monday or Friday, afternoons the other 5 days.

Jae,

Looking for a used certified GPS can save you some money; but do not buy a non-waas gps. (e.g., 420W is okay, 420 is not). HAF is very frequently subject to overcast ceilings around 400 - 500'. You need the LPV (precision-Waas) approach to get home.
 
Lots of mention of the SL30 setup being legal for IFR. Wouldn't you have to install the associated VOR/GS antenna and wiring since the SL30 is just the receiver and indicator?
 
Auburntsts said:
One other consideration for training and your eventual checkride. The PTS calls for you to demonstrate 1 precision and 2 non-precision approaches. With an SL 30, you can only knock out 2 of those (ILS and VOR). You'll need either an ADF or IFR GPS to knock out the 2nd non-precision approach.

Your current panel is fine if you already had the rating and were willing to fly with the limitations already mentioned, but it won't cut it for training or the checkride, IMO.
Click to expand...

I believe that he can do a LOC approach and qualify for the second Non precision approach, which can be accomplished with the SL30.
 
pierre smith said:
All the antennae ARE part of the installation...the whole system.

Best,
Click to expand...

Thanks Pierre. Reason I brought this up, I'm buying an RV-4 with a SL 40 and plan on swapping it out with an SL 30 which will connect with the existing 10" dynon skyview PFD to make the plane IFR and can't decide if it's worth the cost of adding the SL40 plus the antennas or if I should just go with a GNC 300XL or Garmin 430 approach certified GPS.
 
Whit, the beauty of having the Dynon, is that you can make
the HSI page your default boot-up page without the need for another external VOR/ILS indicator, the way my early D-100 is set up. That enables you to fly either an ILS approach, or navigate the VOR, or the GPS, if you're so inclined. We ran the coax into the fuselage from the wingtip to a splitter...one leg for the VOR portion of the receiver and the other leg to the ILS section.

BTW, I mounted an Archer antenna in one wingtip for the 430W I added and the only outside antenna was added under the belly for transmission purposes.

So few small airports have ILS's anyway and many of the larger airports are going to LPV/RNAV approaches, that the 430W is the way to go, for these LPV approaches into most small, uncontrolled airports.

...love the 430W:) I know it's a big bite but it'll enable so many otherwise hard-to-do trips.

Best,
 
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1. Yes, a single SL30 is sufficient for the ifr practical test, since the PTS lists "localizer" and "VOR" as two different types of non precision approaches.
2. You need to add one, not two, antennas. The SL30 has no GS antenna input, it internally splits the GS off from the VOR.
3. To answer the question of what is better, an SL30 or a GX300 is easy. As a TSO129 box you cannot legally use the 300 for IFR without backup (e.g., a VOR) on board. Now a 430 gives you VOR, ILS, and GPS but of course is more expensive. What is your mission? If it is to get home and home has an ILS, then the SL30 should be fine (but look closely. Do you need marker beacons? My home field requires an ADF or GPS for the ILS, this is not uncommon). If home does not have an ILS then you may need the GPS. Locally, if you're based at KHAF its typical weather is such that only a WAAS GPS (TSO145/146) makes sense.
 
Garmin simulator

You might want to download the Garmin GTN 650/750 simulator. It is a high fidelity simulator. Play with it for several hours and get comfortable with it. If I were in your position, with an RV10, I'd go with either the 650 or 750. Yes they are way pricey but the 430/530 systems are yesterdays news. Garmin has outdone themselves with these new GTN's and the 430/530's just don't compare.
 
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