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  #31  
Old 08-29-2017, 06:36 AM
cccjbr6 cccjbr6 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Birmingham, AL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTurner View Post
Tim,
Not so sure about parachute vs ditching from a glide. The parachute 'system' uses the landing gear to cushion the landing. On water the gear goes straight into the water, and you hit hard. In the recent HI chute-into-water event, the pilot was okay. But in the 2005 NY area event, into water, the pilot suffered compressed and cracked vertibrae, and was able to evacuate before it sunk only with some difficulty.
Richard McGlaughlin, a GI doc who runs a clinic in Haiti, hangared his Cirrus two doors down from my Cirrus in Birmingham. His chute pull over the Caribbean following an maintenance induced engine failure with his daughter on board was reported by national media. He doubts they would have survived a ditching unscathed for that very reason.
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  #32  
Old 08-29-2017, 07:04 AM
cccjbr6 cccjbr6 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by fr0gpil0t View Post
I was an early Cirrus owner - and the initial advice was mid-air, failure etc. pull the chute. In fact I think the first pull was after maintenance and the aileron was not fully attached.

What changed it for me was the death of an experienced Cirrus pilot, engine failure and seemingly straightforward dead stick landing - I think close to the runway. Sadly it did not work out. I like many pilots thought why would I pull the chute on a dead stick landing I had a practiced that a thousand times.

Another way of looking at the scenario everyone has walked from a chute deployment made within the parameters, but a small (probably unknown) percentage have not walked away from the list of events you noted as humorous advice to use the chute

So I see the chute as another option for the pilot - either trust the chute or your own skill. The current data supports the former but it doesn't stop the pilot making the choice.

Robert
Robert,
Manfred Stolle is the pilot you are thinking of. He was a generous and kind man who was very well known in the Cirrus community and participated in recurrent training including training in the parachute (there are demonstrators in which you can practice the pull). He crashed just short of the runway threshold after trying to stretch a glide. He survived the crash but died shortly thereafter from internal injuries.

We were all baffled by why he did not pull the chute. Perhaps it is because we train for deadstick landings so much. Training builds confidence and I am sure he had confidence in his skills. His accident brought home tous another reason to pull the chute despite our skills. He left behind a wife and young daughter.

My mindset about the chute was that the minute the engine failed or the plane was not acting right, I was making decisions about the insurance company's airplane, not mine. I have a wife and seven children. While I might have had confidence in my skills, I didn't think I could risk their future when I had a proven solution within arms reach.
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  #33  
Old 08-29-2017, 07:39 AM
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DanH DanH is offline
 
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Location: 08A
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I recall arguments against the adoption of seat belts, and later airbags, but they save lives. We still have motorcyclists who refuse helmets, despite all evidence to the contrary. I have a friend, a decorated Special Forces vet and second-tour Cobra pilot, who after retirement saved himself twice with whole-aircraft chutes. It would be silly to argue that his early adoption of chute systems says he was not brave, or a skilled airman.

Give it a chance.
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  #34  
Old 08-29-2017, 08:08 AM
YellowJacket RV9 YellowJacket RV9 is offline
 
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Location: Clearwater, FL / KZPH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanH View Post
I recall arguments against the adoption of seat belts, and later airbags, but they save lives. We still have motorcyclists who refuse helmets, despite all evidence to the contrary. I have a friend, a decorated Special Forces vet and second-tour Cobra pilot, who after retirement saved himself twice with whole-aircraft chutes. It would be silly to argue that his early adoption of chute systems says he was not brave, or a skilled airman.

Give it a chance.
Yup. Seems pretty easy to opine on the internet about how good pilots don't need a chute. But the accident reports are full of good pilots - many better than any of us will ever be. Things happen, and even the best of us make mistakes. What in the world is wrong with having one more tool in your toolbox, if you deem the tradeoffs worthwhile? If you think it makes pilots take unnecessary risks, that's still a decision making problem - not something you can blame on a piece of equipment.


Chris
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RV-9A - Done(ish) 4/5/16! Flying 4/7/16

Last edited by YellowJacket RV9 : 08-29-2017 at 08:17 AM.
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  #35  
Old 08-29-2017, 08:29 AM
rocketman1988 rocketman1988 is offline
 
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Default curious

"...who after retirement saved himself twice with whole-aircraft chutes..."

Just curious, what situations prompted the deployment of the chutes?
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  #36  
Old 08-29-2017, 09:01 AM
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DanH DanH is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketman1988 View Post
"...who after retirement saved himself twice with whole-aircraft chutes..."

Just curious, what situations prompted the deployment of the chutes?
One control disconnect (broken component), one structural failure of a wing under high load.
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  #37  
Old 08-29-2017, 11:52 AM
Canadian_JOY Canadian_JOY is offline
 
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Location: Ontario, Canada
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I'll chime in again from the perspective of an owner of a different amateur-built aircraft type...

Glasair is offering a whole-airframe parachute for the Sportsman. I don't have many details however it is an available option. This might be part of Glasair's plan to certify the Sportsman (perhaps same reasoning as Cirrus).

The Sportsman would seem well-suited to a parachute since its 4130 steel tube "cage" provides excellent opportunities for transmitting the airframe loads to the 'chute risers.

I've flown a Cirrus simulator and pulled the 'chute. It was an interesting experience, to say the least. It takes a lot more to pull that handle than one would think - the handle is also connected to engine controls to ensure the engine is shut down as the 'chute is deployed.

From a personal perspective I can see the value of a whole-airframe parachute, especially as a person who enjoys flying at night, and who has a strong aversion to being upside down in water. Would I retrofit one? I'm not sure.
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  #38  
Old 08-29-2017, 01:15 PM
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Snowflake Snowflake is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadian_JOY View Post
The Sportsman would seem well-suited to a parachute since its 4130 steel tube "cage" provides excellent opportunities for transmitting the airframe loads to the 'chute risers.
What just occurred to me reading this is that the structure of the passenger compartment is really all you care about... If any other structure is bent or broken because you pull the chute, who cares? You made the decision to write the airplane off before you pulled the handle. So beefing up a Sportsman or an RV-10 may only need localized reinforcement around the immediate cabin.

I admit, i'm not convinced about the necessity of a parachute. It still seems to me that most of the situations where the chute was used still boil down to "you shouldn't have been in that situation anyway" before the chute was pulled, and the times people have died without using it all get pointed at by people asking "why didn't they use the chute?" Damned if you do, and damned if you don't.
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  #39  
Old 08-29-2017, 01:42 PM
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Bill Boyd Bill Boyd is offline
 
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Default the whole upside down after ditching thing

I've read the threads about James Bond's mini-SCUBA rescue devices, etc.

Wondering what it would take in terms of effort/cost/weight to put enough flotation in an RV to keep it afloat awhile, even upside down, to allow egress assuming occupants were uninjured and doors operating normally.

How many ping pong balls in the wings? How many inflated condoms? How much expanding foam? Seal the holes in the tailcone/wing bays enough to allow control movement and very slow ingress of water? Inflatable raft in the back to yank if you ditch but leave in place behind the baggage bulkhead?

It would be nice to know the actual liquid displacement of a flooded/submerged RV. All calcs would have to start from there.
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  #40  
Old 08-29-2017, 01:49 PM
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1001001 1001001 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Just Minutes from KBVI!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Boyd View Post
I've read the threads about James Bond's mini-SCUBA rescue devices, etc.

Wondering what it would take in terms of effort/cost/weight to put enough flotation in an RV to keep it afloat awhile, even upside down, to allow egress assuming occupants were uninjured and doors operating normally.

How many ping pong balls in the wings? How many inflated condoms? How much expanding foam? Seal the holes in the tailcone/wing bays enough to allow control movement and very slow ingress of water? Inflatable raft in the back to yank if you ditch but leave in place behind the baggage bulkhead?

It would be nice to know the actual liquid displacement of a flooded/submerged RV. All calcs would have to start from there.

Maybe just assemble the whole airframe with Proseal, and install some additional solid bulkhead ribs to allow for watertight compartments?
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