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  #21  
Old 08-28-2017, 07:41 PM
TimO TimO is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Wisconsin
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Only one time have I thought that a chute would be nice on an RV-10, but this one actually had me thinking that maybe Cirrus has a one-up on us in this situation...

While flying to the Cayman Islands, I had lots of time to contemplate how the airplane would be upside down in the ocean, and wonder how I'd get the kids out of the back seat if we went down in the ocean and flipped as most probably would. It was at that point that I realized that if you could reliably bring the airplane down flat, you'd probably be better off in that particular situation. Other than that, I'd probably be trying to fly the airplane anyway, but over the ocean, strange things run through your head.

Given the cost, weight, and maintenance though, I'd probably still not install one, but, it was one time I kind of wished I'd been flying a cirrus.
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  #22  
Old 08-28-2017, 09:21 PM
rocketman1988 rocketman1988 is offline
 
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"...I think you are oversimplifying the Cirrus guidance, and doing a disservice to them..."

You may think so but in the end, that is their guidance.

I agree with Bob T. The data is skewed because there is no way to know the outcome without the chute.

I agree, and it is my opinion, that it is definitely a marketing plan (for the most part). I also agree with the statement about "...making bolder pilots...". If you are picking up so much ice that you need to pop the chute, why were you there in the first place? Structural failure? Why did the failure occur? Loss of control? Why did you lose control? Pop the chute for loss of SA? That's just silly.

Point is, while there may be a few valid reasons to have it, they are comparatively few and far between. Pilot experience, judgement, and planning should keep the other situations from happening...unless you figure you can push the envelope because you have the chute.

Once again it comes down to each person's opinion. If you feel that you should have the chute, then do it. Kind of like A/C...or fuel injection...or for heaven's sake, PRIMER!
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  #23  
Old 08-28-2017, 10:18 PM
tfoster100 tfoster100 is offline
 
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This might make a few more spouses happy too. I've heard a lot of non flying spouses worry about what if the pilot becomes incapacitated in flight. Nice to have another option for them. Looking forward to hearing the news on the engineering and design aspects.
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  #24  
Old 08-28-2017, 11:15 PM
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Infidel Infidel is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OkieDave View Post
Originally, it was included because the Cirrus can't recover from a spin--the ability to recover is a certification requirement, so the FAA allowed the BRS as an alternate means of compliance.

Beyond that, I think it's the tool of last resort any time a pilot gets in over his head. The Cirrus is a very high-performance aircraft, and we all know what happens when you mix that with a pilot who can't stay proficient; think "fork-tailed doctor killer."
Yep, the Cirrus may someday earn that quote from Bonanza and very well said.

Stand by.......
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  #25  
Old 08-29-2017, 12:22 AM
BobTurner BobTurner is offline
 
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Tim,
Not so sure about parachute vs ditching from a glide. The parachute 'system' uses the landing gear to cushion the landing. On water the gear goes straight into the water, and you hit hard. In the recent HI chute-into-water event, the pilot was okay. But in the 2005 NY area event, into water, the pilot suffered compressed and cracked vertibrae, and was able to evacuate before it sunk only with some difficulty.
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  #26  
Old 08-29-2017, 05:32 AM
cccjbr6 cccjbr6 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Paule View Post
This appears to be incorrect. Look up the midair collision in Boulder, CO, a few years ago, between a Cirrus and a towplane. The Cirrus descended under canopy, on fire, with no survivors. I saw the video.

Dave
Dave,
In that case the plane caught fire on impact and the rocket deployed uncommanded, either from the impact or the heat of the fire. The video is sad but fascinating. Interestingly, the chute remained intact all the way to the ground and lowered the plane im the proper attitude to a relatively soft landing. Investigators later calculated that the plane reached the ground quicker under the chute than it would have if the pilot had survived and attempted an emergency descent to landing. After that accident, COPA's parachute training included a mention that in case of an onboard fire, the chute may be the quickest way to the ground safely. (That is easier said than done. It would be agonizing to watch a fire grow while under a chute, but with 60-80 knots less airflow you would think the fire would grow more slowly.)
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  #27  
Old 08-29-2017, 05:36 AM
cccjbr6 cccjbr6 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTurner View Post
Tim,
Not so sure about parachute vs ditching from a glide. The parachute 'system' uses the landing gear to cushion the landing. On water the gear goes straight into the water, and you hit hard. In the recent HI chute-into-water event, the pilot was okay. But in the 2005 NY area event, into water, the pilot suffered compressed and cracked vertibrae, and was able to evacuate before it sunk only with some difficulty.
Richard McGlaughlin, a GI doc who runs a clinic in Haiti, hangared his Cirrus two doors down from my Cirrus in Birmingham. His chute pull over the Caribbean following an maintenance induced engine failure with his daughter on board was reported by national media. He doubts they would have survived a ditching unscathed for that very reason.
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  #28  
Old 08-29-2017, 06:04 AM
cccjbr6 cccjbr6 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fr0gpil0t View Post
I was an early Cirrus owner - and the initial advice was mid-air, failure etc. pull the chute. In fact I think the first pull was after maintenance and the aileron was not fully attached.

What changed it for me was the death of an experienced Cirrus pilot, engine failure and seemingly straightforward dead stick landing - I think close to the runway. Sadly it did not work out. I like many pilots thought why would I pull the chute on a dead stick landing I had a practiced that a thousand times.

Another way of looking at the scenario everyone has walked from a chute deployment made within the parameters, but a small (probably unknown) percentage have not walked away from the list of events you noted as humorous advice to use the chute

So I see the chute as another option for the pilot - either trust the chute or your own skill. The current data supports the former but it doesn't stop the pilot making the choice.

Robert
Robert,
Manfred Stolle is the pilot you are thinking of. He was a generous and kind man who was very well known in the Cirrus community and participated in recurrent training including training in the parachute (there are demonstrators in which you can practice the pull). He crashed just short of the runway threshold after trying to stretch a glide. He survived the crash but died shortly thereafter from internal injuries.

We were all baffled by why he did not pull the chute. Perhaps it is because we train for deadstick landings so much. Training builds confidence and I am sure he had confidence in his skills. His accident brought home tous another reason to pull the chute despite our skills. He left behind a wife and young daughter.

My mindset about the chute was that the minute the engine failed or the plane was not acting right, I was making decisions about the insurance company's airplane, not mine. I have a wife and seven children. While I might have had confidence in my skills, I didn't think I could risk their future when I had a proven solution within arms reach.
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  #29  
Old 08-29-2017, 06:39 AM
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DanH DanH is offline
 
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I recall arguments against the adoption of seat belts, and later airbags, but they save lives. We still have motorcyclists who refuse helmets, despite all evidence to the contrary. I have a friend, a decorated Special Forces vet and second-tour Cobra pilot, who after retirement saved himself twice with whole-aircraft chutes. It would be silly to argue that his early adoption of chute systems says he was not brave, or a skilled airman.

Give it a chance.
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  #30  
Old 08-29-2017, 07:08 AM
YellowJacket RV9 YellowJacket RV9 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanH View Post
I recall arguments against the adoption of seat belts, and later airbags, but they save lives. We still have motorcyclists who refuse helmets, despite all evidence to the contrary. I have a friend, a decorated Special Forces vet and second-tour Cobra pilot, who after retirement saved himself twice with whole-aircraft chutes. It would be silly to argue that his early adoption of chute systems says he was not brave, or a skilled airman.

Give it a chance.
Yup. Seems pretty easy to opine on the internet about how good pilots don't need a chute. But the accident reports are full of good pilots - many better than any of us will ever be. Things happen, and even the best of us make mistakes. What in the world is wrong with having one more tool in your toolbox, if you deem the tradeoffs worthwhile? If you think it makes pilots take unnecessary risks, that's still a decision making problem - not something you can blame on a piece of equipment.


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Last edited by YellowJacket RV9 : 08-29-2017 at 07:17 AM.
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