Factory Workmanship Issue WD655 Rudder Bar

I finished assembling my rudder bars and drilled the delrin bearings to the fuselage and centerbrace. When I rotated the rudder bars in the bearings I watched the center brace deflecting because the long pipe in both rudder bars has a "wowee".

It appears that when the stirrups were welded to the rudder bar, the rudder bar has deformed and the net result is both ends of the rudder bar (both right and left assemblies are warped)) droop approx 1/8" down on the side where the stirrups are welded.

I'm not a welder, but I am told that when welding is done on one side of a pipe, heat must be applied to the other side to keep the pipe from deforming (like mine).

I'm sure that the center brace will eventually crack if this bar was installed as is. Replacing a cracked center brace later on would be a major fix.

I'm posting to find out if anyone else has run into this situation. I am also posting to alert other builders of this situation. The part #'s are WD655 R&L

I will be on the phone with Vans in the AM tomorrow and will post their recomended resolution to this problem.

Response From Vans on this Issue On Rudder Bar Quality Issue

I didn't hear from any other builders about my post. Maybe I'm just the luckyone to receive bars that are "curved", or as Van says they are all that way. Maybe I'm too picky. Anyway it appears straightening my rudder bars will be something that I will pursue on my own. I am concerned that the center bracket will eventualy crack from flexing. Here is Vans reply to my e-mail about the rudder bars....

"Gus Funnell" <[email protected]>
06/07/2005 09:19 AM
To
Ted
cc

Subject
Re: WD655 Rudder Bar Weldment Quality Issue ?

None of the rudder bar or flap weldments will be completely straight,
it's thin wall tubing and a 4' length isn't perfectly straight even before
it's welded. Possibly with more complicated jigging and welding
techniques they could be made so, but we don't think it is worth the
extra cost to the average builder. You can try to bend them
straighter, if you think it will cause problems. The bearing blocks will
not allow much, if any, movement, and I have never heard of a
center brace being broken.

Vans

I do not recall having any alignment problems with my rudder pedals and they were free swinging from day one. Are they oriented in the proper way and are the blocks positioned correctly? The blocks are drilled on an angle to compensate for the angle of the fuselage.

Also, the pedals should be placed in the cabin with the outer blocks. Then the center block is fitted to the assembly.

Hope this helps,

Roberta

Rudder Bar Issue

Hi Roberta,

The rudder bars are installed properly. The long pipes on both bars are simply not straight. You can actually see it very easily by sighting down the bar. The total droop is 1/8" on each side with the high side of the bar in the center opposite from the side with the rudder bars.

I am told that when you are welding attachments to one side of a thin wall pipe that side of the pipe will shrink slightly. It is necessary to heat the opposite side of the pipe and quench it to compensate. Or an alternative practice is to fashion a jig to hold the parts securely and prevent deformation during welding. Apparently Vans subcontractor does not use these practices. I am told that the welded slider canopy frames are an example of this type of welding practice. Many people have gone through fits trying to get them bent and reshaped properly.

I have talked to some other builders and they have seen this on the rudder bars to some extent, but not near as bad as mine.

The welds are sound and safe, but the quality of these parts varies because of this practice. Perhaps there is pressure to get some of the stuff out the door at Vans aircraft to meet demand for kits. Vans is selling alot of kits, and I hope quality control is not going to suffer.

I am dissapointed on how this was handled by Vans. I will get my bars straightened, and will keep on plugging. Take care!

Good luck on the resolve. I would ask Van's again for replacements. I'm surprised that they did not accommodate you.

Roberta

Anyone who has ever fabricated anything by welding knows that metals will draw toward the welded side. It's just a fact of life. Properly applied heat opposite the welds will often straighten the part. These are kit airplanes. Part of the building process is making sure the parts will fit and function as desired before installing them. If a part needs to be tweaked a bit to make it work well, that is just part of the game.

From reading many of the posts on this and other sites, I conclude that the prepunched, do almost everything for you, kits have spawned a group of builders who may not have the basic skills or experience needed for completing some required tasks. That is not meant as a put down to anyone. Just an observation. Anyone who takes one of these kits or any homebuilt airplane from a pile of parts to flight has put tremendous energy and effort into the project. It is no small task and deserves to be admired. Builders should just hang in there and learn as they go. When you finish, you will know things you never would have known if you hadn't done it.

Rudder Bar Issue

I take exception to your response to this issue. I guess you view me as one of a" group of builders who may not have the basic skills or experience needed for completing some required tasks". I beg to differ, and I think you are living in the past.

Kit manufacturers have come along way since builders were required to correct sloppy manufacturing processes that were created by "mom and pop" kit manufacturers. That was the era of exagerated claims on aircraft performance, buildtimes and questionable safety of finished kit aircraft. I believe kit manufacturers have evolved beyond this as a result of market pressures. The resale values popular kits such as Vans and Lancair are good examples of this evolution, and so is the popularity of homebuilding.

Kit manufacturers should be expected to deliver the value they advertise, and to provide a well engineered safe product. We all need to hold these manufacturers to this performance level. After all most of will end up flying and maintaining these aircraft.

Many of us purchased Van's Kits because we didn't want to "get out the torch". If that is what we wanted, we may have opted out of building a project entirely or purchased some plans and 4130 tube and went to work. That type of project appeals to many builders who are as your handle states "hanger flyers". If that's your thing, enjoy! I look forward to completing a project in a resonable amount of time and going flying.

I don't believe straightening a powdercoated rudder bar weldment is something I should be expected to do as a customer purchasing a Vans kit. I guess Van's didn't either as the part is powdercoated. Vans didn't deliver what was advertised, and they didn't take care of this problem.

I'm dissapointed, but in the grand scope of things so far this is a small blemish. I'm sure with comments from their customers (like me and others) they will continue improving their products, or they will be left behind to their competition as the market is looking for quality.

Ted,

Here's what you do: call Van's back and politely explain that your bar simply has a bit too much bend for your taste. If what other builders have told you is true, then there is quite a bit of variation in the amount of distortion due to welding. I'm sure you can persuade Vans to root around in their stock for a straighter one. In my experience they've been real easy to deal with.

Keep in mind though that those rudder bars don't really move very far in their bearings, so this might not be that much of an issue.

Steve Zicree

If a part comes powder coated, you are correct to expect it to be ready to install. Any straightening operation would damage the powder coat. That's not acceptable.
I apologize if I ruffled your feathers. It has been a number of years since I've seen the fuselage kit parts as they come from Van's.
You're right, I am an old fart who's been doing this stuff for almost 50 years.
I still love it and the people who do it.
Again, please accept my apology. I was not aware of all the particulars of the issue. Make them get an acceptable part to you.

Bob S

Bad steel part also im mine kit!

I had also bad steel parts in my kit and Vans did not exchange it, I have to buy it again!

It was the Elevator-Horn WD-605-1, look at the pictures:




It has a crack at the bent!

This happen only because Vans did not deburr the parts prior bending. But if you read in the instructions of the kit, it is so importand that every part gets deburred!

After that, I looked by other builders and I found out, that they had cracks too!

Vans Told to file it out, thats enough!

My Spars were also out of shape, the bending was not enough, but this you can read here: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=682
Dominik

Cracked Elevator Horn

I too had a cracked elevator horn. After a few emails with pictures, and some phone calls, Van's sent me a new one free of charge.
I realize steel is much less likely to crack due to stress risers when compared to aluminum, but it seems like every steel part I received had
serious burrs which were simply powder coated over. One would hope there would be a good QC process before powder coating, but the
evidence doesn't point to it.

Paige
RV-8A

If Vans doesn't debur and otherwise properly finish steel parts, they surely should not powder coat them. If I am expected to rework a part to make it ready for installation, I'll be pretty upset if I have to remove the powder coat before reworking it.

Bob S

Is that a crack in the steel? Or in the powdercoat?

Crack in Elevatorhorns

Hello All

It is a crack in the STEEL! As you can see, the area around the crack has a little bit to less powdercoat, this was the reason that I could see the crack. Otherwise the powdercoat would cover it.

Others get replacement for free??? I had to pay for it!

On each steel part, the powdercoar would cover the edge much better when they deburr it before they start coating. So the rust will start soon or later on the edge.

Dominik

Mine are bent as well.

Just like the original post of this thread, my rudder pedal weldment bars had the same amount of bow or more. Just over 3/16? at each end on both bars. You could tell using a straight edged yard stick that the bow was concentrated at weld spots. I put the bars between 2 saw houses and sat on them. My 165 lb was not enough so I bounced really hard about 10 times. I think they are acceptable now. Hope I did not compromise them by bouncing on them that hard. Seems like TedTheFlyer and I got the only bowed ones based on this thread and my enquirers. TedTheFlyer, did you get new ones or did you bounce on them like I did.

Really, no one else have this issue?

swisseagle said:

It is a crack in the STEEL! As you can see, the area around the crack has a little bit to less powdercoat, this was the reason that I could see the crack. Otherwise the powdercoat would cover it.

Others get replacement for free??? I had to pay for it!

Click to expand...

You didn't have to pay for a replacement. That part was completely serviceable...all it needed was a little filing and some touch up paint on it.

Yes, I can understand you being upset about a part not being absolutely perfect when it comes from Van's, but cut them some slack...the kit is still far superior to anything else on the market, especially considering the value (cost) and volume of production they churn out.

There is going to be some work to be done on your part to get the airplane in the air.

<<.....or did you bounce on them like I did.>>

Pretty good illustration of how easy this is to fix.

mine too, and easily adjusted

The rudder bars on my 6A were not true, and caused the centre bearing block to flex slightly when the rudder bars were rotated.
I regard this (and checking for trueness) as just a normal part of the build process.
To straighten them, I drew a straight line on a flat bench top parallel and near to one edge of the bench top, placed the rudder bar on the straight line, drilled two blocks of wood into the bench top at either end of the rudder bar between the bar and the edge of the bench topto hold the bar in place. I tightened a clamp between the edge of the bench and the rudder bar to exert pressure where needed to take out the slight bend in the bar. You can check progress against the line you drew and against the bench top itself as you rotate the rudder bar.
Took all of about 20 minutes, a lot less effort and bother than packaging them up and sending them back to Van's (and that never occurred to me, and I wouldn't have thought it fair to expect Van's to guarantee an absolutely straight bar anyway).
Also, the rudder bar does not have to be absolutely straight, only the three mounting points have to be exactly aligned, which may be a bit easier to achieve, depending on how the bar has bent/warped.
Have you got to the canopy frame yet?
Bill Brooks
Ottawa, Canada
RV-6A finishing kit

Measured again.

Bill Brooks, your quote of ?the rudder bar does not have to be absolutely straight, only the three mounting points have to be exactly aligned? I think you are right on, and it made me check again for straightness.

I think the wrong way to check for straightness is in the first picture. Picture 2 shows how I measured it again. I could spin the pipe 360 degrees and look for a varying gap between the pipe and perpendicular straight edge. Measuring this way I could see that I still had a full 1/16? variance.

To straighten, I again did the ?jumped up and bounce? right over the part of the bar that has no powder coat. The stool underneath allowed me to jump up higher. After a few iterations I can now spin my bars 360 degrees and see no variance.

NOT THIS WAY


YES THIS WAY

thelynns said:

Just like the original post of this thread, my rudder pedal weldment bars had the same amount of bow or more. Just over 3/16? at each end on both bars. You could tell using a straight edged yard stick that the bow was concentrated at weld spots. I put the bars between 2 saw houses and sat on them. My 165 lb was not enough so I bounced really hard about 10 times. I think they are acceptable now. Hope I did not compromise them by bouncing on them that hard. Seems like TedTheFlyer and I got the only bowed ones based on this thread and my enquirers. TedTheFlyer, did you get new ones or did you bounce on them like I did.

Really, no one else have this issue?

Click to expand...

I do not recall checking to see how straight the rudder bars were. They were installed in 2003 as per instructions and have been working just fine ever since.

Seems like since the bar pipe does not rotate much more than 20 or 30 degrees when rudder pedals are moved, a slight bow one way or another is not going to be noticeable when flying the airplane or any other time, except on a bench before installation. The rudder pedals won't hang up, at least there is no such thing happening here, as they are from the factory.

Yes, it would be nice if everything were absolutely perfect, straight and within .00001" of a CAD drawing but for sure no one would be buying a basic kit for a bit over $20,000.

(With regard to accuracy where it matters, I was most impressed when installing the wings to the center section spar, the incidence was within .1 of a degree from one side to the other. Where it matters, these airplanes are true.)

Give Van's a break, they are producing an excellent series of kits for the cost. There's nothing like on the planet.

Well it may be playing dirty pool but have you considered just ordering a new one from Van's and then maybe a week later saying "oh gosh I found it and do not need the replacement after all" then send them the warped one back. If they gripe you could tell them that they said it was ok for it to be bent. After having said all that, I have been surprised how straight their weldments are, that is after having done welding for 40 years myself. Sorry you are having problems.

Be realistic, an RV is not a swiss watch

David-aviator said:

Seems like since the bar pipe does not rotate much more than 20 or 30 degrees when rudder pedals are moved, a slight bow one way or another is not going to be noticeable when flying the airplane or any other time, except on a bench before installation. The rudder pedals won't hang up, at least there is no such thing happening here, as they are from the factory.

Click to expand...

I agree totally. As an Engineer one of the things you have to determine is what is the appropriate tolerance. You only add cost if you spec out a closer tolerance than required. With only 20 degree of rotation you could have a 1/4" bow and would not notice it if the center block is located with the pedals in the operational orientation. Clamp the center block in place, operate the pedals through plus or minus 10 degrees, if they are smooth, mount the block and get on with it.