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First Mistake on Wings

N

Naruto

Well Known Member
Well, I misinterpreted the instructions and drilled extra holes in the left rear wing spar for some of the wing walk ribs. I should have used the spar to drill the rib flanges but I did the opposite. Think I can just put some rivets in the holes and build on? I plan on calling Vans Monday but was to know what others think.

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Ouch. I would email them this picture to so they know exactly what you are asking. I made a ding/smiley in my spar web when I tried to rivet one of the Z bracket nutplates without a solid set up and it got away from me. I sent them a pic that looked worse than it did in person, and was told not to worry and build on. They answered in 1 day. So far I've had to purchase a number of replacement parts. 1 elevator skin ( the trim tab one ), 1/2 of the F706 former, (drilled 5/8 hole for snap bushing in the wrong place) but the worst was when I had a flap fall from where it was stored. Pretty much bent everything. Cost to replace was about $120.00. I had moved it, and before I finished what I was doing got distracted by other stuff upstairs. About an hour later heard a loud crash. Bad noise, lol

I'm no expert by any stretch, but something will need to be done with the 2 holes that break out rear spar reinforcement. Either radius & smooth them out and blend, or just replace it. I think I would replace it cause it looks like you'll need to remove it to try to fix it anyway.

Just remember, you are not alone!! :)
 
I agree with Dave. I'll bet Van's will tell you the spar itself is fine, but that the doublers need to be replaced.

While you're at it, it will be a good excuse to flip those rivets around. Rule of thumb: Shop head on the THICKER material side whenever possible. :)
 
Shop head which side ?

dan said:
I agree with Dave. I'll bet Van's will tell you the spar itself is fine, but that the doublers need to be replaced.

While you're at it, it will be a good excuse to flip those rivets around. Rule of thumb: Shop head on the THICKER material side whenever possible. :)
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Dan, now you have me and a few hundred other builders wondering if we have the shop heads on the wrong side of our HS & VS spars ( thats all I have built so far). I was going by the Mil specs I found on your site and they state.... Quote

" 3.3.3 Driving procedure.
3.3.3.1 Head direction
Unless specified on the engineering drawing or specification, the manufactured head of the rivet shall be located on exterior surfaces. "

Cheers
 
Naruto said:
Well, I misinterpreted the instructions and drilled extra holes in the left rear wing spar for some of the wing walk ribs. I should have used the spar to drill the rib flanges but I did the opposite. Think I can just put some rivets in the holes and build on? I plan on calling Vans Monday but was to know what others think.

IMG_0185.jpg
Click to expand...

Fill the holes with rivets and move on... I'm willing to bet Van's will tell you the same. The (V) in the fork can even be a little larger than Van's cuts it out. I've seen builders in the clean up and debur process remove more material than that hole is taking. :) In the days of the early RV's, builders had to taper (cut) the 1/4" aluminum pieces to build the reinforcing stack for the main spars. Then they would have to be filed, deburred and polished. You should have seen some of the variations there. Build on my friend...
 
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Putting a rivet in the 2 holes that have broken through the edge will do absolutley nothing to strengthen the doubler. It would be better to leave them open and radius them out, or at least remove the material past the hole, than to leave an undeburred areas and fill it with a rivet. That would still require disassembly. Would a DAR or the FAA rep buy off on that? That's scary. My plane is far from perfect, but I would not cut corners on a piece who's reason for being there is to add strength to the wing structure. It's really not that big a deal to fix it now, at this point.

I read somewhere in Van's materials that the manufactured head is to go on the side with the thinnest material, which would agree with what Dan said. This is not always possible, but when it is, I do it. Must be a reason for it.
 
Chappyd said:
Putting a rivet in the 2 holes that have broken through the edge will do absolutley nothing to strengthen the doubler. It would be better to leave them open and radius them out, or at least remove the material past the hole, than to leave an undeburred areas and fill it with a rivet. That would still require disassembly. Would a DAR or the FAA rep buy off on that? That's scary. My plane is far from perfect, but I would not cut corners on a piece who's reason for being there is to add strength to the wing structure. It's really not that big a deal to fix it now, at this point.

I read somewhere in Van's materials that the manufactured head is to go on the side with the thinnest material, which would agree with what Dan said. This is not always possible, but when it is, I do it. Must be a reason for it.
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There's not any damage that would require strengthening the doubler. Using a dremel tool make a small radius, debur and leave it alone is another option. The doubler could stay on place. A rivet in the hole is not going to hurt anything either.
 
Chappyd said:
I read somewhere in Van's materials that the manufactured head is to go on the side with the thinnest material, which would agree with what Dan said. This is not always possible, but when it is, I do it. Must be a reason for it.
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My guess is, the thicker material will reduce shank expansen and allow a better shop head. Kind of like when you place a washer behind a pulled pop rivet head.:)
 
gasman said:
My guess is, the thicker material will reduce shank expansen and allow a better shop head. Kind of like when you place a washer behind a pulled pop rivet head.:)
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Don't mean to sidetrack this thread, but go ahead and rivet .020" or .016" to say .063" or .125". Try it with the shop heads on the thin side and lemme know what you see...probably "scalloping" between holes.

In this case, with an .040" spar and .125" doubler (at least I think those are the thicknesses, if memory serves), you're not likely to see any of that buckling or scalloping. But on main wing rib flangs, for example, you just might.
 
Thanks guys for the good but conflicting advise .:D I was off at work using the paint booth, priming up my wing ribs. I'm glad that's done. I will talk to Vans tomorrow and let everyone know what they say.

dan said:
I agree with Dave. I'll bet Van's will tell you the spar itself is fine, but that the doublers need to be replaced.

While you're at it, it will be a good excuse to flip those rivets around. Rule of thumb: Shop head on the THICKER material side whenever possible. :)
Click to expand...

Dan,

Thanks for the heads up on the rivet shop heads. I will definitely remember it. Did you end up drilling out your rivets in the rear wing spar? I notice on your web site, http://www.rvproject.com/20020512.html, it looks like you put the shop head the same way I did. If you left them the same way and are up and flying, I'm comfortable leaving the the rivets in the rear spar the way they are if Vans says I don't have to replace anything.
20020512_rear_spars_done.jpg
 
Dan, you know...sometimes I look back at my construction log and just shake my head at some of the stuff I did. Thanks for pointing that out, because I honestly can't remember why I did it that way! :rolleyes:

No problems whatsoever (of course I'd say that, right?) but my next set of wings will be done "right." :)
 
dan said:
Dan, you know...sometimes I look back at my construction log and just shake my head at some of the stuff I did. Thanks for pointing that out, because I honestly can't remember why I did it that way! :rolleyes:

No problems whatsoever (of course I'd say that, right?) but my next set of wings will be done "right." :)
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Thats a relief, if Vans says I don't have to replace anything, I was not looking forward to drilling all those rivets out :eek:. Since your plane is flying, it reinforces my confidence that mine will be fine leaving the rivets the way they are. I researched several sites and copied what they did so I assumed it was the right way. No lost sleep tonight waiting to talk to vans tomorrow, yeah right :p.
 
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it really doesnt matter

which side the shop head is on. as dan said the sheetmetal WILL pucker (he said scallop) between rivets . try it you'll not like it. -3s may not but the -4s will. On the thinner stuff..032 and less esp.the thinner the more the pucker will be. dont take them back out. as far as the doubler being hurt, this is a stress concentration unless blended out to about a 1/2 to 1 inch radius. IMHO. good luck

ADDED LATER which i wouldnt used as said earlier.
 
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So what is the general idea for proper shop head direction, I didn't see it specified on the drawings or directions so when I built my HS I looked at some of the logs online and guys did it both ways, I liked the way it looked better with the shop heads in so that's how I did it. Not the smartest way to build (by looks) but thats a rookie for ya. Whats the best?

Ted
 
OK guys,

Vans replied and its only half bad :(.

"Only partial bad news on the rear spar. Engineering wants the doublers, W-
707G and D to be replaced. The spar is OK. Be careful; drilling out the
rivets or you may have to replace the spar also.

As a reminder, do not drill though the rivet. Drill just through the head and
then pop it off with a prying action with a tight fitting punch or the shank of a
drill. Then punch out the rivet shank or pull it out using a side cutter to grab
it tight. That way the hole is not compromised.

Counting the ribs from the root (as number one), towards the tip, on the
second and third rib, ignore the extra holes in the spar web. On the fourth
rib, put two blind rivets (LP4-3) in the extra holes in the web."

I'll probably have to get a spar because I bet I'll screw up drilling out the rivets.
 
Thanks for posting their reply...confirmed my thoughts. :)

Take your time drilling out those rivets, or maybe enlist some help from your local technical counselor or "been there done that" builders if you're not confident about it. The prospect of ordering a new spar sounds like expen$ive $hipping co$t$ to me... :eek:
 
I would like to report after an hour of drilling and popping out the rivets head, I successfully removed everything and don't need to get a new rear spar also :p. My replacement cost is about $21.00 and I might as well get a few extra thing to save on shipping (Ductworth 100 Watt lamps and some 3/8" aluminum tubing).

I also got a reply about which way to put the shop head and Vans response.

"Shop head/manufactured head orientation is not important. It's up to you."

Guess I'm going to have both wings with different orientations since I'm leaving the right rear spar alone. Thanks guys for all your help.
 
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I've also heard from a friend of mine that shop heads don't matter which way they are put in. He read it in a sport aviation article. It would be alot easier to get the bucking bar on the rib side than trying to get the gun in along the rib. All good info though. I'll try the shop head on thickest except where it would be much easier the other way around. Just put up my wing jig this weekend so haven't had a chance to get after the wings yet. Good info to know about the extra holes in the 2nd and 3rd ribs.
 
Naruto said:
OK guys,

Vans replied and its only half bad :(.

"Only partial bad news on the rear spar. Engineering wants the doublers, W-
707G and D to be replaced. The spar is OK. Be careful; drilling out the
rivets or you may have to replace the spar also.

As a reminder, do not drill though the rivet. Drill just through the head and
then pop it off with a prying action with a tight fitting punch or the shank of a
drill. Then punch out the rivet shank or pull it out using a side cutter to grab
it tight. That way the hole is not compromised.

Counting the ribs from the root (as number one), towards the tip, on the
second and third rib, ignore the extra holes in the spar web. On the fourth
rib, put two blind rivets (LP4-3) in the extra holes in the web."

I'll probably have to get a spar because I bet I'll screw up drilling out the rivets.
Click to expand...

Looks like Van's gave you the normal CYA response and sold some more parts... :D
 
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