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  #1  
Old 03-16-2020, 03:00 AM
KatanaPilot KatanaPilot is online now
 
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Default "Pro Shops"

A recent thread about another topic mentioned an airplane built by a "Pro Shop" and later explained that this shop "in Florida was paid to build it".

I'm a little surprised and disappointed that no one has called out the apparent violation of the E-AB rules. I'm not so naive to think that build shops don't exist (I'm pretty sure I know where this particular shop is) but as a group we seem to be looking the other way.

Someone seems to be ignoring the rules, someone else is certifying that they were the builder of 51% (when they probably weren't) and some DAR or the FAA is signing off on it.

And here I worry about getting some build assistance, even though I am at the shop working on my plane anytime I have assistance and many times when I don't. MOSAIC hasn't been implemented yet and we have no idea if "pro build shops" will be approved. So why are we seemingly tolerating this?
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  #2  
Old 03-16-2020, 06:16 AM
spatsch spatsch is offline
 
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I agree with you.

I am also a stickler about people being honest. When I certified my RV I built I had to sign in the log book that the airplane is airworthy (donít recall the exact language). I donít sign things lightly.

So obviously the owner who signs this after using a pro shop and not even properly inspecting the airplane (which is obvious based on the pictures) just lied right there. I donít have any sympathy for an intentional liar. Not any better then the pro shop that built it in my book.

In the long run this will hurt the experimental community both from a regulatory perspective and from a aviation community perception perspective.

Oliver
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  #3  
Old 03-16-2020, 08:38 AM
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rvbuilder2002 rvbuilder2002 is offline
 
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If you search the forum archives I think you will find that anytime someone has asked about recommendations of pro build shops, etc., there is a pretty strong feed back regarding what the rules allow, etc.
I think in the case that you quoted, it was already built and the main context was not related to pro shops, so there wasn't any discussion about it.

I agree with your sentiment though. As a community over all, we need to not be tolerant of flagrant disregard of the rules.
This statement will likely cause some ruffled feathers... I.E., people that feel that it is no one else's business what they do as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else.

There in lays the problem. Breaking the FAA's rules does hurt others.

For those that haven't figured it out yet.... the way that the FAA (and most all of government) deals with rules being regularly broken, is to tighten them, or make new, more restrictive rules!
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  #4  
Old 03-16-2020, 09:27 AM
vic syracuse vic syracuse is offline
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Unfortunately, there is a lot of this going on, and most of us on this site know where and who is doing it. The FAA has bigger fish to fry so they haven't had time to look at this or address it until someone get's hurt or killed.
They have counted on us to self-police, of which we aren't doing a real good job. Most of the shops hide under the guise of builder assist and take pictures when someone visits.

In some cases I have refused to license it as a DAR, but they just found someone else. In one case the shop used various parts (wings, engine, fuselage) from wrecked or previous-flown RV's and tried to pawn it off to the buyer as a new airplane. I refused the certificate but another DAR signed it off.

Seeing as everyone signs the Statement of Eligibilty and has it notarized, it's called perjury. Doesn't seem to bother everyone.

Vic
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  #5  
Old 03-16-2020, 01:50 PM
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gmcjetpilot gmcjetpilot is offline
 
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This is not new and has been going on for a long time. Many kit manufactures have or had "builder assist" centers. They provided space, tools and expertise assisting the owner/builder. Is it "cheating"? Think of it, reason for amateur built is learning. In a legit "builder assist" scenario the owner/builder will have hands on and learn from experienced folks. It would likely produce a superior safer airplane and meet the spirit of the regulations.

You hire a shop, "have rivet gun will travel", pay the bills and don't turn a wrench, show up last day to pop rivet data plate on with your name; yep that is violation of the intent and spirit.

Buy Van's 51% QB and have someone design, fab and install instrument panel, wire the plane (a lot people do). Then you pay someone to paint and do interior (a lot of people do). You get help to hang engine and plumb it. You get someone to help you rivet tail together and do fiberglass... Is this OK? As long as you are involved in all steps and learning it is OK. Many people build planes together doing work 50/50. What about group builds at a A&P school or at Oshkosh. Who get's their name on it or repairman certificate? The intent is education.
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  #6  
Old 03-16-2020, 03:42 PM
vic syracuse vic syracuse is offline
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Van's kits (and all others on the FAA list) meet the 51% rule exclusive of engine, avionics, paint, for which you are allowed to farm out.

Vic
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  #7  
Old 03-16-2020, 03:50 PM
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N941WR N941WR is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmcjetpilot View Post
T... Who get's their name on it or repairman certificate? The intent is education.
Not picking on you George but just pointing out, no one needs to get the repairman's certificate.

However, FAA Form 8130-12 has you attest (and it is notarized) the following:
Quote:
Originally Posted by FAA form 8130-12
I certify the aircraft identified in Section II above was fabricated and assembled by (Write your name) for my (their) education and recreation. I (we) have records to support this statement and will make them available to the FAA upon request.
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  #8  
Old 03-16-2020, 04:43 PM
ty1295 ty1295 is offline
 
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I don't know the exact shop in question, but do realize there are a lot of what I call "check book" assist being done.

It would almost make more sense for a new class to be created instead of EAB, maybe Experimental Paid (I hate to use professional) Built.
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  #9  
Old 03-16-2020, 05:11 PM
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DanH DanH is online now
 
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Don't need a new type of airworthiness certificate. Aircraft built more than 50% by a hired gun are legally licensed Experimental Exhibition.
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  #10  
Old 03-16-2020, 05:29 PM
scsmith scsmith is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanH View Post
Don't need a new type of airworthiness certificate. Aircraft built more than 50% by a hired gun are legally licensed Experimental Exhibition.
Actually I'm not sure that is true, Dan. It was not a few years ago. Airplanes built in other countries could be brought into the USA and licensed under "Experimental, Air Race and Demonstration" and that is how my glider is licensed. But an airplane built in the USA in an uncertified setting, I don't believe it can be licensed that way. If it is not "Amateur Built", "Market Survey", or "R&D", I don't think there is a path to licensing a professionally built Experimental in the USA.

I would love to be told I am wrong, because that would open a path for interesting projects to build for commercial gain. HP-24, for instance.
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