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  #21  
Old 06-21-2019, 01:01 AM
jliltd jliltd is offline
 
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Okay. I have to say that when I saw the topic headline for this post I figured it was some overly cautious newbie scared to attemd. Boy was I wrong. What a great thread, from Gary's initial post to every other contribution. I must be getting crusty. Kudos to Gary and the rest of you.

Based on flying the Ripon/Fisk arrival procedures for years the kind of advice extended in this thread is invaluable to any pilot. And more so to the ATC volunteers and everybody involved. As a rule the NOTAM is very well thought out and works great until "that pilot" shows up who bumbles in to the foray without preparation. Unfortunately in the last few years there has been an overabundance of "that pilot". I fully understand that the last couple of years in particular have been burdenden by sketchy weather which only exasperated problems in the arrival. But I would guess that anybody here on the VAF Forum who has done the arrival procedure has had "that pilot" go whizzing past them or off to the side of the railroad tracks instead of over them. It's like some folks didn't comprehend the NOTAM or know how to fly 90 knots.

Glad to see someone bring up the subject of practicing to enhance all of our safety.

Jim
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  #22  
Old 06-22-2019, 03:21 PM
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RogerH RogerH is offline
 
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Default RV Fiske Arrival Question

Having flow the Fisk arrival in several slower aircraft I was looking forward to flying this year at the higher 135kt/2,300ft MSL level with a recently acquired RV-4.

This discussion chain is based on a statement that it's preferred in the NOTAM that RV's fly the slower 90kts/lower 1,800ft MSL arrival. Can someone clarify where that's in the NOTAM? I don't see that noted as a requirement.

It seems odd to me that it would be a safer practice to maintain unusual slower cruise speeds from Ripon to KOSH, with other aircraft that might be struggling to maintain 90kts, if I can stay "above the fray" at a comfortable 135kts.

Am I missing something here?
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  #23  
Old 06-22-2019, 03:28 PM
Kyle Boatright Kyle Boatright is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerH View Post
Having flow the Fisk arrival in several slower aircraft I was looking forward to flying this year at the higher 135kt/2,300ft MSL level with a recently acquired RV-4.

This discussion chain is based on a statement that it's preferred in the NOTAM that RV's fly the slower 90kts/lower 1,800ft MSL arrival. Can someone clarify where that's in the NOTAM? I don't see that noted as a requirement.

It seems odd to me that it would be a safer practice to maintain unusual slower cruise speeds from Ripon to KOSH, with other aircraft that might be struggling to maintain 90kts, if I can stay "above the fray" at a comfortable 135kts.

Am I missing something here?
Doesn’t the notam say “if able” fly the 90 knot stream? That’s cut and dried to me. Beyond that, flying the higher stream creates one more merge point on final where all the aircraft have to congregate to land.
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  #24  
Old 06-22-2019, 03:37 PM
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RogerH RogerH is offline
 
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I'm looking at it and it says:

"Arrive at Ripon at 90 knots and 1,800'...faster aircraft use 135 knots and 2,300'"

It goes on to make suggestions about aircraft unable to maintain 90 knots flying at their maximum and recommends an early AM arrival.

It does not appear to stipulate that aircraft must fly 90 knots if they're capable of higher performance.
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  #25  
Old 06-22-2019, 08:28 PM
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DanH DanH is online now
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerH View Post
It does not appear to stipulate that aircraft must fly 90 knots if they're capable of higher performance.
Capable of higher performance is irreverent. The NOTAM is specific...the high approach is for aircraft unable to operate comfortably at 90 knots. All RV's operate just fine at 90 knots.

Here's the problem. You whiz along overhead, then descend into the pattern, blind as a mole. You can't see the slower airplanes on the same track under you. The vertical merge is entirely reliant on the tower controllers. Errors aside, they tend to turn out the low aircraft if there is a conflict. If it happens, and the high bird is your RV, you will definitely be "that guy".
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  #26  
Old 06-22-2019, 09:25 PM
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donaziza donaziza is offline
 
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Referencing Post 18, I had been to Oshkosh many times back in the 70ties, and 80ties, but I've only "flown" there once in 2015. So I thought I'd better practice this 90 Kt stuff at home for extended distances. I wasn't real happy with 90 Kts and zero flaps, not that it can't be done, but--------

So I started practicing at 1/2 flaps. That worked out quite well. My flaps take 6 seconds to go full down, so I just counted 1001, 1002, 1003.

Last edited by donaziza : 06-22-2019 at 09:28 PM.
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  #27  
Old 06-22-2019, 10:13 PM
rightrudder rightrudder is offline
 
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If there are four abreast in the holding patterns at 1800', I'm **** sure that I'm unable to comfortably maintain 90 kts!! It's a wonder there wasn't a mid-air last year.

Of course my aircraft can fly at 90 kts, but with 2018 as an example, I think the risk of descending on a plane from 2300' was far less than tangling with the maelstrom 500' below.

Went out today and did some runs today at both speeds, with the aircraft loaded up to get used to the farther-aft cg. With a Catto FP prop and IO-320, 90 kts worked out to 1550 rpm; 135 kts, 2500 rpm.
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Last edited by rightrudder : 06-22-2019 at 10:16 PM.
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  #28  
Old 06-23-2019, 09:23 AM
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DanH DanH is online now
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rightrudder View Post
Of course my aircraft can fly at 90 kts, but with 2018 as an example, I think the risk of descending on a plane from 2300' was far less than tangling with the maelstrom 500' below.
You will be descending into the maelstrom, and the people below you are robbed of see-and-avoid.

The practical reason for the 135 knot approach is so typical light twins can stay above Vsse, or in some cases even Vso, not so RV owners can be line-jumpers.
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  #29  
Old 06-23-2019, 09:41 AM
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Plummit Plummit is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanH View Post
Capable of higher performance is irreverent. The NOTAM is specific...the high approach is for aircraft unable to operate comfortably at 90 knots. All RV's operate just fine at 90 knots.
Since an aircraft has no feelings, doesn't the word "comfortably" refer to the pilot? I can certainly operate my -10 at 90kts, but 135 kts is more comfortable. FWIW

-Marc
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  #30  
Old 06-23-2019, 09:53 AM
rocketman1988 rocketman1988 is offline
 
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Default So...

This reminds me of those guys on the highway that just HAVE to get there a minute earlier...and end up becoming a danger to everyone else.

As has been stated earlier, the RV's fly just fine at 90 kts. If everyone followed the procedure instead of thinking they know better, the arrival would work much better.

...and as stated earlier, if YOU are not comfortable flying your RV at 90 kts, it is time to practice...
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