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  #21  
Old 10-04-2007, 08:12 PM
ScottSchmidt's Avatar
ScottSchmidt ScottSchmidt is offline
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Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
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Default N104XP Panel

The Chelton's are my primary for everything except watching a movie. They are incredible. I have flown with the G1000 and really like the size of the screens but I like the HITS (Highway In The Sky) on the Chelton. I don't think Garmin is too far behind. I use the G430 as backup and load the exact same flight plan into the 430 as I do the Chelton but like others have mentioned the FMS screen on the Chelton makes it almost too easy. It is really slick. When ATC tells you to fly V496, you simply enter V496 and select the end point. The Garmin is not quite as easy.

The 430 is my primary com with the SL40 backup.

If you wanted to save money, go with the Grand Rapids and do what others have said, put the 496 in the panel with a 330 transponder. Traffic is really cool. I wish I did the SL30 and not the SL40. The SL30 links very nice with the Chelton. Someday I will switch it out.

Until you do a flight with the Chelton's linked to the VSGV autopilot you cannot appreciate how easy it makes it.
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RV-10 N104XP (1150 Hours)
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  #22  
Old 10-05-2007, 05:55 PM
ajay ajay is offline
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 81
Default More interest in Cheltons

Scott,

I'm thinking of going with 2 Chelton's and an sl30 and foregoing the 430, since it really doesn't integrate well with the CFS. Having the 430 as backup is wise, but I favor simplicity over redundancy. However, I want to get my instrument ticket with this setup, will I have the required equipment?

Also, previous discussions have indicated Chelton hasn't been too supportive of their experimental units; they seem to be a PIA to get configured properly; and some kind of bias altitude errors with the Trutrak integration. Can you comment on these issues (or anyone else)?

much obliged,

ajay


Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottSchmidt View Post
The Chelton's are my primary for everything except watching a movie. They are incredible. I have flown with the G1000 and really like the size of the screens but I like the HITS (Highway In The Sky) on the Chelton. I don't think Garmin is too far behind. I use the G430 as backup and load the exact same flight plan into the 430 as I do the Chelton but like others have mentioned the FMS screen on the Chelton makes it almost too easy. It is really slick. When ATC tells you to fly V496, you simply enter V496 and select the end point. The Garmin is not quite as easy.

The 430 is my primary com with the SL40 backup.

If you wanted to save money, go with the Grand Rapids and do what others have said, put the 496 in the panel with a 330 transponder. Traffic is really cool. I wish I did the SL30 and not the SL40. The SL30 links very nice with the Chelton. Someday I will switch it out.

Until you do a flight with the Chelton's linked to the VSGV autopilot you cannot appreciate how easy it makes it.
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  #23  
Old 10-06-2007, 07:23 AM
TimO TimO is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 313
Default

Ajay,

You should be able to get your instrument ticket just fine with the Chelton system, with or without the 430. The only questionable thing is if you don't have a WAAS remote mount GPS, or a WAAS panel mount GPS from another company like Garmin, you can't just plan on flying actual WAAS approaches with the unit until you do. But that wouldn't stop you from doing your training with it. I'm also a proponent of training on steam gauges too, which would at least for a few hours in another aircraft be something very worthwhile...especially to give you some skills detached from EFIS use.

The Chelton owners have a forum to discuss their systems (non-public) and receive support, and through that, Chelton has been actively supporting the Experimental systems. They actively watch topics and offer assistance, which is kind of a rarity in today's times. The builder support is also excellent, and most any configuration / wiring / operation question can be quickly answered there.

Regarding TruTrak integration, once TruTrak came out with software version 2.24 on their DFIIVSGV and Sorcerer, and Chelton released 6.0A13 (or 16), the altitude offset issues are completely resolved for nearly all of the people and the performance feedback has been great. Getting a system to integrate to the TruTrak AP for Vertical control proved non-trivial, in part because TruTrak does not support high-speed ARINC, but there were also a few very minimal issues such as how a data word was rounded that caused some bad effects. Once the manufacturers hammered it out, it's been great. One lesser known fact is that when Garmin tried to integrate the G900 to the TruTrak, they had some issues too due to some of the same things as Chelton had to deal with.

I'll continue to encourage anyone interested in picking out any higher-end EFIS that is more than just a "6-pack replacement" to put forth the effort to go fly behind one, with someone knowledgeable to show them the system. If you're spending over $10-15K on an EFIS system, the couple hundred bucks it would cost you to jump on a plane for a day and fly with a system is peanuts.
Anything less than a demo flight and it just can't be an educated decision.

Good luck in your hunt!

Tim
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RV-10 N104CD - Flying 2/2006 - 1200+ hours http://www.MyRV10.com
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Last edited by TimO : 10-06-2007 at 08:19 AM.
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  #24  
Old 10-06-2007, 09:05 AM
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ScottSchmidt ScottSchmidt is offline
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Default

I was hoping Tim would jump in here. If it wasn't for guys like Tim the answer to your question about support would be a little different but like Tim mentioned, he has an offsite Chelton user site that is great. I will admit that the operation manual and wiring manual are sub-par, but with all the info out there now on the web, it isn't too bad.

For the wiring, there are not too many wires to connect. Go with the SL30 as it is built to integrate with the Chelton. You also have to buy the ARINC converter for the traffic and also the autopilot if I remember right.

The best way to learn the system is to first purchase Keith Thomassen's book. http://www.avionicswest.com/training...elton.htm#1115
This will give you a great overview of the Chelton's and their capability. The next best thing is to go fly with someone who knows them. There are companies our there to train you on these systems as well if you want to spend some more money.

I cannot stress how much safer this system makes flying. The situational awareness that the Chelton's and G1000/900X gives you makes flying with steam gauges scary in my opinion. I subscribe to the IFR Refresher and when I read about the accidents, many of them are cases of loss of situational awareness and simply turn the wrong way. With fuel totalizers and the new systems out there, I hope to see many of these accidents go away.

Another incredible invention is XM weather. What an awesome addition to the cockpit. I chose not to integrate it with my Chelton's for a couple of reasons. The first was price, I was able pick up that unit for $1699, the Chelton integration would have been a little more, and second, I wanted to use it on my motorcycle. I don't think it matters too much on how you put it in, just do it. I love my 396. I take it with me everywhere I go. The only issue I have with it is the power plug. They are pretty weak and when I unplug it as often as I do, the plug has pulled from the housing on two of my three plugs. I'm planning on doing a different system with a remote plug that is more robust.

I had some friends from Houston that were up in Idaho flying the back country come through on Thursday. They called about 1 hour from Salt Lake so I grabbed Mike Howe and he took some great shots. How did I find them? I cruised up to 12,000 ft as they were cruising at 11,500 and when they got close to Salt Lake they popped up on my Chelton's using the TIS. Mike got a few great shots.

That's Joe Waltz flying his awesome -8. We flew with them for about 30 minutes and then headed back to Salt Lake. Good luck!

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RV-10 N104XP (1150 Hours)
RV-12 N321UT (Sold)

Last edited by ScottSchmidt : 01-18-2008 at 09:58 PM.
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  #25  
Old 10-06-2007, 04:17 PM
ajay ajay is offline
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 81
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TimO and Scott,

thanks for the feedback and advice, very encouraging news.

a couple more questions if you don't mind-

does the new Chelton GADAHRS offer WAAS gps or do you have to go with a extra Freeflight or something else? It sounds like this may be a limitation until Chelton comes up with the software/hardware support?

I live/fly on the east coast, with extensive ADS-B coverage. I'm entertaining the GDL 90, heard anything on the GDL 90 integration into the CFS?


much obliged,
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  #26  
Old 10-06-2007, 10:13 PM
TimO TimO is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Wisconsin
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Ajay,

While the Chelton Gadahrs does have a WAAS GPS, it a term being very loosely used these days among products. The WAAS GPS it has does not qualify it to be used for Lnav/Vnav and LPV approaches. To date, the only systems that are approved are the GNS480/530W/430W/1000, and a FreeFlight GPS. Chelton has said that they will also be releasing a full LPV capable remote-mount GPS (last I heard it was late this year but you know how those things go). You need to look at the EFIS for what the EFIS features are, and realize the WAAS GPS (for REAL Lnav/Vnav/LPV capability) is an add-on to any of the EFIS's except the G1000...and even the G1000 only has it from what I understand because it's actually built using the same components from the above listed. (A G1000 incorporates special 530 type radios and things internally)

So for people comparing EFIS's, your LPV capabilities really rely on one of those above systems to be tied in somehow. Even when GRT comes out with their "WAAS" GPS, it's not intended to be on par with the requirements of the actual honest certified GPS's listed above, from what I've heard. So the thing you see as a limitation is a limitation for all of the systems...which is why you see so many 430W's and 480's in the same panel. Now, wait a short time more and when a remote mount WAAS GPS box can be added that honestly makes the system 100% capable of any GPS approach, then it will be the ideal situation. The nice part is, you can fly behind it for a long long time gaining the proficiency you should really have, and add that box when you want to throw the added $$ towards it.

As far as ADS-B goes, yes, the Chelton is ADS-B capable. Remember that Chelton was actually THE system that was put together for the Capstone project to test the feasibility of ADS-B in Alaska, so it was really the same thing I'm flying today that it was done on. As I haven't pursued ADS-B yet as an add-on to mine, I can't tell you if there is any revision difference in the GDL-90, but from what I've heard it was indeed a GDL-90 of some flavor that was used for ADS-B. That question would be a good one to call Chelton directly about. In the configuration pages of the system when you set up Traffic (or maybe it was weather) though, you have choices of things like Ryan TCAD, real TCAS systems (the GTX330 uses a TCAS config), or ADS-B. So the systems indeed have the configuration available. All you need is to find the box and buy it. I'm waiting a little while to see when ADS-B gets more reasonable yet, as my GTX330 has now already given me coming up on 2 good years of TIS for a lot lower cost. It's going away they say, but it is a VERY slow departure.

If you ever want to swing up this way you're welcome to go for a flight.
Tim
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RV-10 N104CD - Flying 2/2006 - 1200+ hours http://www.MyRV10.com
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  #27  
Old 10-28-2007, 04:28 PM
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Mike S Mike S is offline
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Location: Cameron Park Ca "o61"
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Default Removable lower angle

Well, I am a firm believer in borrowing a good idea when I see it. My buddy Steve came up with the following idea, has over 100 hrs on his 10, with no issues.

Here is how I modified my lower panel brace to be removable. As things are, it is riveted in, and should it ever need to be removed, your paint job will suffer for it.

This is the original bent over tab, that gets riveted to the fuse.

URL=http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2006383466803304846][/url]

And here is the modified end.



Here are the parts, really simple as you can see.



All it really takes is a piece of 1 1/2 x .125 angle, and a few minutes time.
Due to the fact the mounting tab is now a stand alone part, a couple more rivets on each side are added.

The hardest part was making sure of the alignment prior to cutting off the existing tab.

Enjoy.
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"Flying the airplane is more important than radioing your plight to a person on the ground incapable of understanding or doing anything about it."
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  #28  
Old 10-28-2007, 07:51 PM
TimO TimO is offline
 
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Location: Wisconsin
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I found that one out (cutting off those tabs on the panel) during my installation. I agonized for a while because in order to silkscreen your panel you have to remove those tabs...there's no way to get a screen to lay flat with them interfering. It was tough to get myself to cut them off initially, and then I realized that there's no reason you can't rivet in angle like that, and it would
be better in the end because now the panel is removable as you have shown.
Thanks for posting great pictures. Hopefully it will make it easier on people who were in my shoes...living in fear of what was going to go wrong if they cut those tabs off.

Tim
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  #29  
Old 10-29-2007, 09:39 AM
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Mike S Mike S is offline
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Default Thanks

Tim, thanks for the kind words.

This really is a simple thing, for anyone contemplating this mod, I would suggest doing it early in the panel building process, not at the very end, as I did.

Good luck to all
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Rv-10, N210LM.
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Flying as of 12/4/2010

Phase 1 done, 2/4/2011

"Flying the airplane is more important than radioing your plight to a person on the ground incapable of understanding or doing anything about it."
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  #30  
Old 10-29-2007, 09:52 AM
TimO TimO is offline
 
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Actually, I'll even push it one step further Mike...I think, if anyone is planning to use the Van's metal panel like I/we did, I think this should be a planned mod or a standard step. If they ever want a panel upgrade, it would be a pain unless they took the time to do this now.

Glad we got it squared away anyway!
Tim
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RV-10 N104CD - Flying 2/2006 - 1200+ hours http://www.MyRV10.com
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