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  #11  
Old 03-13-2019, 12:13 PM
lr172 lr172 is offline
 
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Location: Schaumburg, IL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenley View Post
This is because a BFR has the CFI taking the controls for brief periods of time. My current CFI is ineligible because he has not had transition training, so he could not even be listed.
I just did a BFR last week and the CFI never touched the stick. However, I somewhat understand their perspective on that. But it greatly increases the difficulty of getting a BFR done. If this safety pilot issue turns out to be accurate, it's time we start speaking with the carriers directly. I am certain at least one carrier will allow this and we can entice them with moving over a lot of business from other carriers that won't allow it. It's really a no brainer for the insurance company. The safety pilot never touches the stick so there is no risk for them.

I remain convinced this is coming from an underwriter not fully thinking it through and understanding that a safety pilot is not an acitive pilot and does not pilot the plane. Happy to have a restriction in my policy that forbids safety pilots from controlling the aircraft. I fact, my policy already state that no one may pilot my plane unless they meet the open pilot requirements. I would guess that most underwriters are not pilots and it would be easy to misunderstand the role of a safety pilot. By name it sounds like a co-pilot or someone there to help pilot in some situations. In reality, it is not. They are there for traffic observation only.

Larry
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Last edited by lr172 : 03-13-2019 at 12:27 PM.
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  #12  
Old 03-13-2019, 12:38 PM
BobTurner BobTurner is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rleffler View Post
I think the person is confusing the safety pilot under vfr and ifr conditions. Under IFR, they are the PIC, but in VFR they're basically just and observer.
I think that you were thinkng of a non-instrument rated pilot. For a current and rated pilot, he can be PIC under ifr, of course.
My understanding of the faa’s vindictive interpretation of the basic med rules is that a basic med safety pilot must be the PIC - legally responsible for the safe and legal operation of the airplane. Pilots should think thru the ramifications of this, both with the faa and insurance companies.
Like others, I hope the insurance rep mis-spoke. The FAA allows pilots to act as a safety pilot even in circumstances where they are not qualified to act as PIC, e.g., no high performance endorsement is required even if the plane is over 200 HP.
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  #13  
Old 03-13-2019, 01:14 PM
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flytoboat flytoboat is offline
 
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Does this mean I can't allow anyone not on my insurance to touch a flight control??? I love taking non-pilot friends flying and letting them "fly" the airplane.
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-6A bought flying
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  #14  
Old 03-13-2019, 03:22 PM
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airguy airguy is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flytoboat View Post
Does this mean I can't allow anyone not on my insurance to touch a flight control??? I love taking non-pilot friends flying and letting them "fly" the airplane.
No, you are the PIC in that scenario, even when they are operating the controls.
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  #15  
Old 03-13-2019, 05:21 PM
lr172 lr172 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airguy View Post
No, you are the PIC in that scenario, even when they are operating the controls.
That is the FAA's interpretation. I think you'll find your insurance companies different.

Larry
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  #16  
Old 03-13-2019, 05:22 PM
lr172 lr172 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flytoboat View Post
Does this mean I can't allow anyone not on my insurance to touch a flight control??? I love taking non-pilot friends flying and letting them "fly" the airplane.
This is exactly what I was told by gallagher. Anyone touching the controls needs to meet the open pilot requirements of the policy. The PIC thing is a regulatory matter and the insurance companies set their own guidelines and don't necessarily follow the regs for doing so. The fact that you must follow regs to be covered doesn't mean they don't also have additional requirements of their own. The requirement for time in type or CFI sign off is one of those.

None of this means you can't do it, only that if they found out they would deny coverage on an incident in which it took place.

Larry
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Last edited by lr172 : 03-13-2019 at 05:28 PM.
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  #17  
Old 03-28-2019, 10:43 AM
Shanna Linton Shanna Linton is offline
 
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Location: St. Louis, MO
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I feel like we all might be talking about a lot of separate issues here.

1.) If you are practicing IFR in VFR conditions and the safety pilot is rated in category and class: single engine land. The pilot practicing IFR is acting PIC. The safety pilot does not need to meet the OPW or be approved because he is not the acting PIC. (I realize in the FAA’s eyes the safety pilot can log time too, however the insurance company is more interested in who’s actually flying and who is logged as PIC for the flight.) (I’ve spoken with underwriters from AIG, Global and Old Republic about this and they all agree with this.)

2.) A CFI should be approved by the insurance company when operating the aircraft as Pilot in Command when he/she does not meet the open pilot warranty. Here is an example. I am the CFI and you are the aircraft owner of a Cessna 182RG. Your Flight review has not expired, but you want to get it done before the renewal date. During the flight, you are the PIC. Let’s say you come to me after the FR has expired. Now I, as the CFI, am PIC because you no longer meet the FAA requirements. If the OPW requires 25 hours in a 182RG and I don’t have it, you should contact the insurance company to have me approved for the Flight Review.

Does this clarify things? Feel free to call the office to discuss: 877-475-5860

(Please keep in mind that all claims are handled on a case-by-case basis)
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Opinions and advice provided by Arthur J. Gallagher & Co. is not intended to be, and should not be construed to be, legal advice. Please direct any request for legal advice to your attorney.
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  #18  
Old 03-28-2019, 07:25 PM
Scott Hersha Scott Hersha is offline
 
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Listen to Shanna, she is the expert. A basic Med pilot riding along as a safety pilot on an instrument currency ride in VFR conditions is NOT OK, because that makes her/he a required crewmember, and she/he can’t be listed as PIC. If conditions are IFR and the flying pilot is no longer current, then the safety pilot is PIC (no basic med), but she needs to be IFR current and qualified in type to act as safety pilot. Also, if she is PIC, she needs to have full controls on the airplane - not usually the case with Vans tandem airplanes.

According to AOPA: If you don't have a current medical, you can still provide flight instruction as long as you are not acting as PIC or as a required pilot flight crewmember. You can't act as a safety pilot because that would make you a required flight crewmember, but you can instruct someone who is at least a private pilot, is current, has a medical, and is qualified to fly the aircraft you are instructing in. And yes, you can get paid for your flight instruction services.


If a basic med CFI pilot is giving you a BFR, does she/he need to be PIC? Nope, not as long as you are current and qualified in type and flight conditions, and yes, she/he can legally charge you for her services.

Pretty confusing isn’t it??
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SH
RV6/2001 built/sold 2005
RV8 Fastback/2008 built/sold 2015
RV4/bought 2016/sold/2017
RV8/2018 built/Flying
Cincinnati, OH/KHAO
JAN2019

Last edited by Scott Hersha : 03-28-2019 at 07:59 PM.
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  #19  
Old 03-28-2019, 07:47 PM
Scott Hersha Scott Hersha is offline
 
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To confuse things a little more - lets say you are a basic med pilot (me) and you need instrument currency flights to stay current. Your airplane partner (mine) is an IFR current A350 pilot, also current and qualified in our RV8. Can he provide safety pilot duty on my instrument currency flights. You betcha! Can I provide safety pilot duties on our RV8 proficiency flights?? You betcha, again. I’m not providing IFR currency for an IPC, but simply providing eyeballs for traffic, etc, for him to gain proficiency in IFR flying in our RV8, and he is legally PIC. See the difference? He is current, qualified in the RV8, and merely gaining proficiency in IFR RV8 flying, since it’s a little different than his A350. He is not doing an IPC - that was covered in his latest sim training.

Still pretty confusing,.....

I hope I have it right..... Shanna??
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SH
RV6/2001 built/sold 2005
RV8 Fastback/2008 built/sold 2015
RV4/bought 2016/sold/2017
RV8/2018 built/Flying
Cincinnati, OH/KHAO
JAN2019

Last edited by Scott Hersha : 03-28-2019 at 07:57 PM.
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  #20  
Old 03-28-2019, 08:09 PM
Scott Hersha Scott Hersha is offline
 
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Location: Cincinnati, OH
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To clarify - an instructor doesn’t need to have a medical (on basic med), unless they are PIC, or a required crewmember. But - if they are doing a BFR, or IPC that is signed off, their CFI needs to be current...
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SH
RV6/2001 built/sold 2005
RV8 Fastback/2008 built/sold 2015
RV4/bought 2016/sold/2017
RV8/2018 built/Flying
Cincinnati, OH/KHAO
JAN2019
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