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Fun times leaving Oshkosh

scottmillhouse

Well Known Member
I believe arrival issues are now known and being worked. How about making departures more efficient too. To depart from HBC you must taxi the entire length of 36. Today I spent 45 minutes in taxi and saw several planes that had to pull over due to overheating. This also happened to me a few years ago with an even longer taxi. The cause is just what causes many traffic jams, failure to alternate merging traffic with the primary traffic. The line was continuously stopped to permit waves of side entry traffic. Use the zipper concept rather than the merge the flight of 10 Cessnas all at once concept. As an example it looked like vintage had a direct line for 36 take off without a wait.
 
I believe arrival issues are now known and being worked. How about making departures more efficient too. To depart from HBC you must taxi the entire length of 36. Today I spent 45 minutes in taxi and saw several planes that had to pull over due to overheating. This also happened to me a few years ago with an even longer taxi. The cause is just what causes many traffic jams, failure to alternate merging traffic with the primary traffic. The line was continuously stopped to permit waves of side entry traffic. Use the zipper concept rather than the merge the flight of 10 Cessnas all at once concept. As an example it looked like vintage had a direct line for 36 take off without a wait.

Scott, to be honest, I don't think there is a departure issue. You got a peak time. Alternating wouldn't have changed the total, and stopping the line to merge multiple aircraft is simply fewer stops...i.e. less chance of someone being overrun. Recall the TBM/RV accident?

Overheating is a problem to be eliminated before visiting Oshkosh. Any RV that can't fly the 90 knot approach or taxi all day needs to be fixed.
 
Any RV that can't fly the 90 knot approach or taxi all day needs to be fixed.

I take exception with taxi all day... try it and your CHTs will go to redline on an hour taxi. All RVs are cowled for air passage in flight but not for sitting still. Issue with my 9 a previous Oshkosh (only high CHT ever) and voltage issues this year with the 12. Had to shed loads in taxi this year since by design low RPM is a battery discharge.

I talked to others that left later without a problem and it has been a few years since my previous issue so it probably is a peak issue. It sure is frustrating when you stop and wait while all side traffic is merged in ahead of you and your CHT is climbing or voltage dropping. Obviously a problem for full airport length taxi only and not for the side entries. Zipper concept at peak does not have to be one to one but something reasonable to keep line moving like 8 forward, 2-4 merge. I still think it is an issue to address.
 
I take exception with taxi all day... try it and your CHTs will go to redline on an hour taxi. All RVs are cowled for air passage in flight but not for sitting still. Issue with my 9 a previous Oshkosh (only high CHT ever) and voltage issues this year with the 12. Had to shed loads in taxi this year since by design low RPM is a battery discharge.

SNIP

I tested this last year on arrival - 1.5 hour taxi... CHT's were ok and stable (don't recall, but somewhere in the low to mid 300's), but oil was hovering around 230-240 most of the time. Optimum rpm seemed to be about 1000. Oil likely would have been lower if it had been a departure taxi.
 
I spent an hour this morning with an old friend who is one of the bigwigs on the NOTAM and on flight line operations. You would not believe the challenges they face and, as he puts it, nobody knows everything about the operation.

The frustrations raised in the above posts are superficially reasonable, and I fault nobody for making those statements. However, the AirVenture operation is extraordinarily complex, and the current operation represents the wisdom of many very smart and dedicated people with years of experience in this unique environment. And the operation is run by volunteers.

I also spent time with an official at ultralights, and they face similar challenges.
 
I take exception with taxi all day... try it and your CHTs will go to redline on an hour taxi. All RVs are cowled for air passage in flight but not for sitting still. Issue with my 9 a previous Oshkosh (only high CHT ever) and voltage issues this year with the 12. Had to shed loads in taxi this year since by design low RPM is a battery discharge.

I put the Anti-Splat cowl flap in my 9A, and my oil temp and CHT's go DOWN on a long taxi from where they were on 90-knot conga line. If you are overheating, then the first answer you received is still the correct one. My primary alternator (Plane Power 60 amp) also keeps a firm buss voltage on my airplane at 600 rpm idle with no discharge, and I have a higher electrical load than almost all RV's with a full glass panel and electric-only fuel pumps.
 
I left from HBC Thursday at 8:00 am. So in the middle of departures. At the right turn on to the 36 taxiway had 30 planes in front of me. Slow taxi with a couple of stop+waits. No heat or brake problems. Controllers were releasing planes every 20 or 30 seconds depending on flying speeds. Seemed rather efficient.
 
I departed Thursday morning, which as defined by ATC as the busiest departure time. I started my taxi from the HBC island at 0730 and had wheels up at 0800.
Not too bad considering the long taxi to 36L. I probably had 6 or 8 planes ahead of me.

The key is to get out early or time your departure away from peak times.
 
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49clipper

Overheating is a problem to be eliminated before visiting Oshkosh. Any RV that can't fly the 90 knot approach or taxi all day needs to be fixed.[/QUOTE]



Agree with Dan, fix the issues.
 
Overheating at 90kts...yep fix that!

Overheating while moving in a taxi...yep fix that!

Overheating while sitting with the engine idling and the plane not moving for extended periods (more than a few minutes)...please share how to fix that!
 
Oshkosh Arrivals and Departures

I have been listening to comments about Oshkosh for the last week.
This is my opinion so don't take this the wrong way everyone.
When you fly your airplane to the busiest airport in the world for that week you pretty well know what you're getting yourself into.

Simple solution is to leave your airplane home and fly commercial and not worry about any hassles.

Enough said.
 
I have been listening to comments about Oshkosh for the last week.
This is my opinion so don't take this the wrong way everyone.
When you fly your airplane to the busiest airport in the world for that week you pretty well know what you're getting yourself into.

Simple solution is to leave your airplane home and fly commercial and not worry about any hassles.

Enough said.

There is something magical about flying your homebuilt to Osh and camping beside it.....worth dying for? NO! However there is a solution to all this, we just have to find it.
 
Overheating while sitting with the engine idling and the plane not moving for extended periods (more than a few minutes)...please share how to fix that!

Again?

Kidding aside, most temperature problems are due to multiple contributing factors. If you're serious, start an "Overheating on the ground" thread in Traditional Engines, and be specific about your problem.
 
TEMPERATURES

Not all aircraft cool as well as others when they taxi or sit idling. Pusher aircraft get extremely hot and must be shut down if they taxi or idle to long. I think one way to eliminate issues during the departure phase and increase departure times is a mandatory departure procedure. I am not talking about what they have published in the NOTAMS. I am speaking of the professional way to depart an airport without holding up all those planes in line behind you.

I have noticed at many airports pilots tend to take their sweet time performing the before takeoff and run-up checks when they are first in line at the runway entrance. This is extremely rude and un professional.

When you are at a busy airport you should be going through all your before takeoff and run-up checks prior to even getting to the runway entrance. Have the controls, mags, carb heat, fuel selector, flaps, trim and any other items done while taxi-ing. When you are cleared for departure you should be advancing that throttle to full as soon as you make the turn onto the runway and your nose is aligns with the runway heading. It's those clowns that sit there at the runway entrance or even on the runway and do last minute checks that hold everyone up. When you hear "cleared for takeoff" That is the only thing you should be doing!

Have respect for everyone else in line.
 
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I have been caught in the 36 conga line for over an hour (last year when the C-5 departed and brought everything to a halt while it got pushed out/back taxied/took off on 36).

This year, same runway/same departure-engine start to airborne took 13 minutes (from HBP).

Some lessons I learned along the way...as has been mentioned, pick what appears to be a non-peak departure time. This time, Saturday early AM worked like a champ for me. In my limited experience (4 AirVentures) Thursdays/Fridays appear to be big movement days, so I avoided them this time.

Also, after last year's C-5 dealio, I spent some time on Boeing plaza asking some of the heavy metal folks what their plan to bug out was and if they could share it...

Everyone I asked gave me the info they had at that time to help me come up with a departure decision.

Something EAA could do that would help is to put that kind of info out there (say on the NOTAM/daily schedule/departure ATIS) so that guys could make a plan before the big elephant walk starts and brings things to a grinding halt.

My 2 cents.
 
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You might be able to conjure up a bit more airflow through the cooling system by taxiing in someone else's prop wash. During a long hold before take off one year there I did just that and it helped.

Choose wisely, you don't want to be blown over or have debris blown into your plane.

Dave
 
This thread's intent was to see if there were departure issues and obviously my intent to shorten taxi time for a full airport taxi is only an issue for me and was not a problem this year for others.

The thread drifted to temperature issues. To clarify my actual experience at Oshkosh 2013 with my RV-9: My CHTs were approaching redline after a 1 hr 45 minute taxi/idle time. As I understand it all RVs are cowled for air passage in flight but not for sitting still. Our cowls act as a high pressure entry and lower pressure exhaust exit, efficient in movement but not as efficient stationary with little to no air movement. If you mess much with this you actually create more drag in flight. I don't think that plane had a cooling problem since that was the only high CHT ever for over 500 hours. After the long taxi the CHT actually dropped to normal temperatures in climb about 200' above the airport. If anything it always ran on the cool side for both CHT and oil temperature.
 
ground over heating

I have had cooling problems with oil temps on the ground for a while got caught in the Bow arrival last year had to shut down.So what to do I had a few ideas and went with cutting an 8"x 8" cowl flap in my Sam James exit.My temps are 185 in cruise 200 in pattern open the flap and it goes down a couple degrees and settles in that range. Used a aluiminium backing plate mixture cable and 8" of piano hinge and an extra aileron bellcrank modified to 8" on one side to reach rear edge of flap and some 3"and 1" angle when closed you cant tell its there opens about 3". Best part its cheap and effective.
Bob
 
Departed Saturday morning...started the taxi from Home Built Parking at about 7:40 or so and there was a steady line on the taxiway but also a steady line departing 36 including a flight of four P-51s...I never stopped but went right around the corner on to the runway and departed. They were launching at about 15 second intervals. Not too shabby. Did not make one radio transmission and out of the Class D southeast bound at 1300'.
 
We started up in HBC at 0710 on Saturday morning, taxied without a stop all the way to 36L where we were #1 for take-off, and kept the wheels rolling until liftoff. A very good time to depart it seems.....
 
Agree with Paul.

Started from HBC at 10:30 Saturday. Requested 27 but got flagged to 36. Long taxi but fun checking out the crowds and showplanes along the way. Four planes ahead of me at the end, Pink shirts had us all off in about a minute. Very efficient.
 
Thursday 11am departure. Had to wait on 6-8 planes. Stopped for 2-3 minutes a couple of occasions. Very reasonable.
 
Last year we got stuck on the taxi to 36 for over an hour due to unexpected arrivals that cut off the departures for what seemed like forever. I think we started our trip to depart on Thursday morning around 09:30. It was pretty warm and while our temps remained below redline, the engine coughed a bit on the roll till the fuel got flowing.

This year we headed to depart around 10:00 on Friday. Had about a 15 minute trip down to 36. Just a few warbird arrivals that stopped the departures for a minute or two along with the occasional Tri-Motor activity. It was much cooler than last year and for the most part the taxi line kept moving. Much better experience.

In years past, we have been lucky and have not had much of a delay to depart.
 
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