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Ask a controller... (in memory of Tony Kelly - tkatc)

Someone privately asked me this question:

"Is there any way to become a air traffic controller at the age of 34?
I have always been interested in being a controller and now I may have to change jobs."


Unfortunately, age 31 is the typical cut off for new controllers. There are only 2 provisions I know of that allows the hiring of someone older. One is retired military who have spent 20 years as a controller in the military (they have a special program for those guy) and the other is the RE-HIRING of controllers who were FIRED by Reagan.

That rule has to do with the mandatory retirement age of 56.

You can still become a controller in a contract facility, but not with the FAA. I know there use to be a company called Robinson Van Buren that did contract towers and such and I know there are 1 or 2 companies that still do this work but I don't know what they are called or how they do their hiring.

Somebody at OSH asked about getting his son into ATC and I mentioned the best and quickest way to get in (if you don't have military experience) is a CTI school. The following link will explain it much better than I could. I will say that not ALL the schools are created equal. The best students I have seen (other than military) have been out of Beaver College in Pittsburgh, PA.
 
Code of Confusion...

turbosaaber said:
Carl,

ADIZ codes you receive from FSS, 126.9, allow adiz penetration. If you have a flight plan on file and are requesting flight following from ZMA ARTCC, our codes we give you will allow adiz penetration. The code you get from radio will permit you adiz penetration without flight following. Now one thing you should know is that east of Freeport, the radar coverage is not very good. Miami Center only owns 7000 and above, below that is freeport approach and nassau approach(NON RADAR). Nassau owns 6000 and below about 35mi east of ZFP. I hope this helps you.

take care and feel free to pm or email me for further info. I work that airspace every day. Very common for pilots to get confused when they just received a code from fss and then we give them another code!

carl
Click to expand...

Hi Carl,
This is what happened to us on the way back from the Bahamas. :confused: What made it really confusing was our trying to be a flight of four. I still am not sure what is the best course of action here.

When I called FSS to originally get the codes they would not let me open the entire flight. Everyone had to call in and receive an individual "code". OK we do that but, FSS tells us that a "flight" back into the USA is not allowed. So everyone is squawking a different code, but flying a 1/4 mile apart in sight (gotta wonder what that looks like on the screen). When we passed Nassau I contacted Center, or was sort of handed off by Nassau. Now this is where I start having problems. The Center controller wants me to squawk a different code and so I comply. The rest of the flight is still squawking their FSS codes.... The Center guy keeps asking me if I'm squawking my code and I say yes. After discussion back and forth, trying to understand what he wants I finally realize that the rest of the "flight" is probably blocking me. I have everyone squawk standby, so now he is happy and no problem coming in as a flight.

So my question in all this is what would be the "preferred" way to come back across the ADIZ on a VFR flight?? Seems like it would be easier to ignore FSS altogether and just contact Center before making the ADIZ, get a code and in you go. Will center open the flight plan(s) in this case? How does Center deal with a flight of "xx" in these situations?

Regards,
 
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ARTCC ADIZ

I'm not sure why you had such a problem. I think it is easier to just get flight following from Miami Center and yes you still need to open a vfr flight plan. They will give you a code, and I will give you a code. Now this is where some pilots get confused, our codes permit adiz penetration, you need to have a opened flight plan, for Search and Rescue, among other things. Some pilots are really torn, why did FSS give me a code, why is the controller giving me a different code, why did Nassau Approach give me yet another code...??? Let's start with Nassau, the code they give you is from their code subset, 04xx. Once they handoff you to me, I will give them a code for you, I type into the Host computer your callsign, type, and destination. IF you are a flight of 5, then I will 5/rv7/a. the a being your equipment suffix. Now if you didn't open a flight plan, your callsign, type, and destination would be all the information that the faa would have on your trip, not enough for SAR. One more thing, you have to be at an altitude that would permit radar flight following. Not going to happen if you are at 1500, or 2500... Send me a pm if you wish...

take care and hope this helps...
 
Thanks for the info Carl I really do appreciate it. One of the confusing points has more to do with coming in as a "flight". We all filed individual flight plans and had them open. We were also assigned separate codes as well. It was when we got picked up by Center and what happens now with four planes squawking different codes right next to each other. :eek:

It seems like Center is OK with a flight, but only wants one person squawking a code? Which makes sense to me (as this is the norm for any flight of two or more)... but I have limited brain capacity. The problem arises because we are crossing the ADIZ and everyone "thinks" they should be squawking a discreet code (given that we were all assigned one by FSS). Really just want to make sure I do it right and keep you guys happy that have to look at the blips. ;)

So here's another scenario for you. What would happen if we didn't pick up flight following, maintained our "flight group" and kept squawking four separate codes. Would this trigger alarms at Center? Would we then be under Center's scrutiny? Some kind of violation? From Center's perspective which would they rather have?

Regards,
 
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happens all the time

We have pilots fly through all the time on FSS ADIZ codes, negative flight following. We don't mind either way but we would rather work you than not. The amount of "Traffic Alerts" issued around ZBV, Bimini, would shock you! As to why no formation flights entering ADIZ, not sure about that but I've worked many formation flights, never heard that or had a problem. I really don't know why more pilots don't use flight following, it's free!
 
Why I do not like flight following

I really don't know why more pilots don't use flight following, it's free!
Click to expand...
I do use flight following but do not like it because of the constant chatter. In my part of the country, the frequency is always busy. It does not matter if it is Center or Approach Control. Someone is always talking and I have to listen in case they call me. That makes it difficult to communicate with my passenger. And the noise (controller - pilot chatter) is annoying on a long flight.
Like I said, I do use flight following and appreciate the controllers keeping me separated from other aircraft. Even on flights in remote areas, I have been surprised when given a traffic advisory when I thought mine was the only plane flying there.
Joe
 
Flight following in Los angeles

I always use flight following. While I wait to start my RV10, I am flying a spam can with a G1000. Friday I did a flight from KHHR (Hawthorne) turn point at Disneyland and another over Catalina then return. The G100 has TIS traffic and everyone is suppose to be on Mode C over LA. When I was on the Disneyland to Catalina leg, flight following had me hold my climb at 4K and deviate 20 degrees north for traffic. Never saw the guy on TIS but he was close enough nevertheless that FF had me deviate and stop my climb. Lastly, when I approached Catalina, never heard from SoCal approach for 20 minutes. Guess there was nothing to say. Even though it is a hassle in LA, I always use Flight following. They have been very helpful more than once, and have gotten me out of jams, and prevented me from getting into a few ("Ah Cessna.. do you really want to go into the Class Bravo airspace without permission???"... No I didn't think so...). Thanks to all the controllers for helping us little guys.
 
Ask a controller

TKATC,

I am a newly minted IFR RV pilot and fly out of an un-towered field with ILS approach to one end of the runway. Have done many approaches in the flight school's 172 with round gauges. My RV has a very nice Dynon Skyview (non certified GPS) and a perfectly good radio (SL-30) with glideslope/localizer/VOR functions. I don't have a ADF but the approach specifically states that one is required for using this ILS approach. My instructor says it is to find the missed approach hold at a local NDB which shows up perfectly fine on my Dynon Skyview. There is an alternate missed approach FIX that is defined as the intersection of two VOR Radials and I can also see that FIX on my screen.

Since I need to be able to fly home and shoot this approach, do I have to install an ADF radio? Or could I request that alternate and be relieved of need ing to install the "almost obsolete" ADF? Is it feasable to get the approach plate changed so that ADF is not required if you use the alternate if you go missed? Should I notify the controller that I wish to use the alternate if I go missed? Should I just shoot the approach and go to the primary missed approach fix at the NDB if I go missed?

Sorry about the long winded question. I'll quit now.
 
mr.sun said:
TKATC,

I am a newly minted IFR RV pilot and fly out of an un-towered field with ILS approach to one end of the runway. Have done many approaches in the flight school's 172 with round gauges. My RV has a very nice Dynon Skyview (non certified GPS) and a perfectly good radio (SL-30) with glideslope/localizer/VOR functions. I don't have a ADF but the approach specifically states that one is required for using this ILS approach. My instructor says it is to find the missed approach hold at a local NDB which shows up perfectly fine on my Dynon Skyview. There is an alternate missed approach FIX that is defined as the intersection of two VOR Radials and I can also see that FIX on my screen.

Since I need to be able to fly home and shoot this approach, do I have to install an ADF radio? Or could I request that alternate and be relieved of need ing to install the "almost obsolete" ADF? Is it feasable to get the approach plate changed so that ADF is not required if you use the alternate if you go missed? Should I notify the controller that I wish to use the alternate if I go missed? Should I just shoot the approach and go to the primary missed approach fix at the NDB if I go missed?

Sorry about the long winded question. I'll quit now.
Click to expand...

I'll answer your question with a question. What is the equipment required for the approach?

1. ILS - ADF
2. ILS - 2 VOR
3. ILS - Certified approach GPS w/overlay for NDB

From your description, you don't meet any of the three. With one VOR and a non-certified GPS, you may have a pretty good representation of where the fix is located, but I don't think you would be considered having the appropriate equipment on board for the flight.

My advice is get a certified GPS for both enroute and approach installed if you're going to fly IFR. You're legal with equipment you have installed, until you encouter an approach like this, which requires more.
 
Which ILS approach is it? Here is the electronic approach procedures site from the FAA: http://aeronav.faa.gov/digital_tpp.asp?ver=1110&eff=09-22-2011&end=10-20-2011

mr.sun said:
...There is an alternate missed approach FIX that is defined as the intersection of two VOR Radials...
Click to expand...
VOR intersections can be identified with one VOR receiver. Sure you'd be switching back and forth a lot, but it is legal.

However, where it is not legal to switch back and forth is inside the FAF (IAF?). In this case, if you need to use a crossing radial to determine your position along the inbound course, then you'd need two VOR receivers. Makes sense...you wouldn't really want to be switching back and forth while descending close to the ground. In the case of the MAP, well, you're likely above the MSA and a lot less likely to hit anything if off course a bit. The buffer from the ground in holding airspace isn't huge, but it's bigger than from the FAF inbound.

My conclusion is if you coordinate for a missed approach that does not use the NDB, you'd be legal.

BTW, asking for a heading and altitude as a missed would negate both the NDB and VOR intersection issue. Just hard to do if your are NORDO...but that's another whole discussion.

-Jim
 
This is a tough question for me to answer without seeing the approach plate. Even with the plate in front of me I may not be the expert (I am not IFR rated). If the approach states ADF required...then it is required for a reason. If the missed requires you to navigate an NDB then you should have it. I have never seen published alternate missed approach procedures so I wont comment on that but I have issued alternate missed routinely here at my airport.

The Dynon is great, so is my Garmin Aera, but they are not certified for IFR procedures even if you intend to MAKE the approach, in the event you cannot, you still need certified equipment to guide you along the missed.

You could try to coordinate alternate missed approach instructions and if approved I would suspect you will hear the term "via"...this is ATC lingo meaning it is on the pilot to maintain his/her own obstruction clearance since the procedure has not been TERPS certified. We use that routinely here in the
flat lands of Jersey but it would not be appropriate in all areas.

I would suggest you call your local facility, or visit, and ask them about it in detail.

Fehdxl is spot on about the NORDO situation. That is a totally new can of worms. One you would be better having a conversation about with your local facility.
 
With the Skyview and the SL30 you can use the SL30's monitor mode to identify a cross fix by using the standby Nav source. Just watch the tail of the RMI pointer and it will always tell you what radial of the standby you are on. No switching required.

If a plate says ADF required, it is required.....the exceptions are with certified GPS's you can substitute. Most certified approach capable units can substitute only if you have a GPS overlay approach for the same fix. Certified WAAS units can substitute even if there is no overlay.
 
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Ask a controller

Brantel is right, the SL-30 is almost two radios in one. You can monitor two comm channels or two VOR's or a VOR/ILS combination. So I could find the intersection of the two VORs with my SL-30. I don't have to do a bunch of switching back and forth to find that intersection at all.

The approach I want to be able to accomplish is the ILS 19 at PWT. I have been practicing with a safety pilot and I am comfortable with it. I just don't know if I will get in trouble with anyone if I file /U as my suffix and file and fly that approach in "the system".

Do I have to request that intersection as my missed approach fix at all? My typical scenario is arriving VFR on top after a cross country trip from better weather and having to go thru the layer and land with VFR (or close) weather below.

Thanks, guys

do not archive
 
The alternate missed approach fix is defined off OLM 346/19.4. You don't even need SEA to identify CARRO. You should be good to go on that approach with an ILS/LOC and a VOR. You should request the alternate missed approach procedure before commencing the approach so they know what to expect if you go missed, especially if you go NORDO and then go missed.
 
ADF or a suitable RNAV system (AIM 1-2-3) is required to keep you in the protected missed approach airspace. The protected missed approach is based on a ground track to CARNEY NDB. VOR will not get you to CARNEY.
 
I wish controllers all had to be private pilots.

Today I was a bit chagrined when the ATIS/METAR said 10 knots and the ASOS said 14 gusting 25. Do controllers just call the winds for ATIS at that very split second and don't put the peak gusts in, let's say if they were a minute or two ago? Big difference in 10 knots and 25 knots! Sheesh.... :mad:
 
Dan B said:
ADF or a suitable RNAV system (AIM 1-2-3) is required to keep you in the protected missed approach airspace. The protected missed approach is based on a ground track to CARNEY NDB. VOR will not get you to CARNEY.
Click to expand...

But you don't need to get to CARNEY if you are cleared for the alternate missed approach.
 
The alternate missed approach is not published but is contained on the appropriate 8260-3 or 8260-5 form (the actual legal document that creates the procedure and from which it is charted) to allow the procedure to remain authorized if the navaid providing the missed approach guidance is out of service. It is fully TERPed out and flight checked for use. The alternate missed approach holding fix is depicted on the chart in case it is issued. A controller will not (or should not) issue any other missed approach procedure and cannot turn an aircraft off the published (or alternate) missed approach procedure until the aircraft is above the MVA or MIA, assuming radar is available. As noted, if an aircraft does not have an IFR certified RNAV unit, and the procedure specifies "ADF Required," he will need to have an ADF receiver installed.
 
I think Aerovin has the best answer to this question. I agree 100%. He sounds like he is either TERPS certified or "Flight Check" experienced. Nice job Aerovin!

Oh Doc, I also agree with you that every controller should have a PPL. In reality, it just isnt practical. I know EXCELLENT controllers who don't fly as well as some who do. I encourage many of our new controllers to get at least SOME pilot training, it would give them such a better understanding of what the pilot wants/needs and why he/she is requesting certain things. On the flip side, maybe every pilot should get some ATC training? ;)

As far as weather is concerned, there are no guarantees. Pilots prepare as best they can and then deal with what they actually get. The ATIS gives a 2 min average of recent winds just before it gets broadcasted, the ASOS wind is determined by many different ways and types of equipment. (which I dont find to be very accurate sometimes) You have to remember the wind equipment we use is always installed in a different location at each airport and is affected by nearby obstacles and other factors. I have seen east winds at one end of a runway and west winds at the other!!! :eek: Bottom line is, if the wind is gusty, the pilot will know it LONG before he/she touches down on the runway.
 
Dear "Bored in the Tower",

I recently had a discussion with a local flight instructor who told me in no uncertain terms that I'd be crazy to consider filing and getting access into the DC SFRA in my RV-8. He suggested that flying an amateur home built aircraft was all but not permitted and my odds of getting violated were almost 100%.

Is it safer to file and fly the SFRA in a certified aircraft? Is it unadvisable to file and fly the SFRA asa VFR only pilot&plane? I've already taken, passed, and put the necessary documents into the aircraft.

sincerely,
"Don't want an Escort"
 
Your RADAR target will look EXACTLY like any other target transitioning through the airspace. (except your ground speed will be much higher than most :D). To avoid an escort you should be a competent, trained pilot. Aircraft type has nothing to do with it. I suspect the instructor is slightly ANTI-experimental.

PS. I am not currently in my tower. To surf the Internet while working a position would be highly illegal!
 
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TRSA

In doing some flight planning I noticed the TRSA over MBS.

Why do they have TRSA's any more since they don't mean anything?

The top of the TRSA is 10,000' while the top of Detroit's Class Bavo is only 8,000'. That seems odd.

Note, there is an underlying Class Delta hiding in the middle of that TRSA
 
Palm Springs

tkatc said:
I'm bored. Ask a question.
Click to expand...

Flying VFR, using flight following, I pass near KPSP which has a TRSA. Generally, I try to fly around it but given that I am talking to SOCAL which is located at Palm Springs, is it OK to go thru the TRSA?
 
tkatc said:
I'm bored. Ask a question.
Click to expand...

Hello

A question, how about a few if you do not mind?

When cleared for a STAR, is one expected to fly last assigned or altitudes depicted on the STAR?

When departing my little airport (0A9 in East TN at 1500 MSL) to the south, I have to climb to 9000 MSL to get over the hill. If after departure I turn South immediately after climb through 3300 mandated by departure procedure, I find that I do not have the minimum IFR altitude required for terrain avoidance (and the controllers are unhappy). As a result, I tried filing for a nearby intersection which would allow for an acceptable vector for climb. I found I was not given that in clearance. Lately I just have been filing direct then requesting "runway heading through 6 vector for climb" after airborne. That seems to work. When cleared direct, how soon after departure is one expected to turn on course if no departing vector is issued?

You mentioned in an earlier post that controllers want a good working radio and I agree. I had an old Collins VHF251 which I replaced with a garmin 430. The Collins was a much better radio. Have you seen one brand or model better or worse then most?

I hardly ever use flight following. If I want that sort of service I will file IFR. When departing controlled airspace with a squak code I am advised to contact ABC controller for flight following. If I do not want that service, should I just not contact that controller and change squak code to 1200? I have done this in the past and while monitoring the next frequency been called by the next controller and advised a new squak code even after requesting cancel.

Thanks for reading.
 
MrNomad said:
Flying VFR, using flight following, I pass near KPSP which has a TRSA. Generally, I try to fly around it but given that I am talking to SOCAL which is located at Palm Springs, is it OK to go thru the TRSA?
Click to expand...

TRSA's are voluntary. You do not need to talk with them if you do not wish. It could be thought of as a class d airport with optional services of a class c.
 
Forane, you pretty muched nailed the TRSA definition except that departing aircraft will receive mandatory services when departing from that Class D airport unless the pilot specifically declines the service. Much like Class C VFR departures.

Bill, the remaining TRSAs don't make perfect sense to me either but there is always a reason. Some points that come to mind are the Feds threw us pilots a bone by NOT regulating the airspace. Some areas would be difficult to call another class of airspace due to adjacent airspace (you certainly couldn't infringe upon adjacent Class B or C). Other TRSAs just don't meet some obscure requirements to become another class and lastly, defining something a TRSA vs NOTHING may preserve jobs. I personally think the FAA invents programs to keep people employed even if it muddles the waters of the real mission, but of course that is strictly an opinion. :D

I will try to find some good old timers who may know more about the reasoning behind preserving the TRSA.

Forane, a STAR is what you would be expected to fly in the event you received no further instructions. Always honor your last assigned altitude unless you find yourself in a NORDO situation but being IFR you have been trained on that procedure.

As far as radios are concerned, I like the loud and clear ones vs the scratchy and garbled variety. :D
 
FORANE said:
You mentioned in an earlier post that controllers want a good working radio and I agree. I had an old Collins VHF251 which I replaced with a garmin 430. The Collins was a much better radio. Have you seen one brand or model better or worse then most?
Click to expand...

While the model and brand of radio does have an impact, quality issues tend to be more related to the implementation. (i.e. a matched antenna, proper wire, good terminations, no ground loops, etc.)

bob
 
Forane, if you are cleared direct off the ground you should proceed on course as soon as it it safe to do so (meaning avoid all obstacles). As far as your departure procedure I would have to take a look at it but even then i wouldn't be as good a resource as your local area controller. If you call them they are more than happy to explain things.

As far as canceling flight following, I suggest you tell whatever controller you are working with that a handoff to the next controller will not be necessary. If you relay that far enough in advance, the controller will not have to do the required work to make such a handoff and that will be appreciated.
 
tkatc said:
As far as canceling flight following, I suggest you tell whatever controller you are working with that a handoff to the next controller will not be necessary. If you relay that far enough in advance, the controller will not have to do the required work to make such a handoff and that will be appreciated.
Click to expand...

I would be happy to do that. Thanks for the tip. It is just that often it seems a controller will assume I want flight following when I have made no such indication. So, if I took off from a controlled field, had a squak code to get out of his airspace, would you recommend I be proactive and request frequency change before he contacts me to advise new frequency? Would that tip him off that I do not want flight following?
 
humptybump said:
Dear "Bored in the Tower",

I recently had a discussion with a local flight instructor who told me in no uncertain terms that I'd be crazy to consider filing and getting access into the DC SFRA in my RV-8. He suggested that flying an amateur home built aircraft was all but not permitted and my odds of getting violated were almost 100%.

Is it safer to file and fly the SFRA in a certified aircraft? Is it unadvisable to file and fly the SFRA asa VFR only pilot&plane? I've already taken, passed, and put the necessary documents into the aircraft.

sincerely,
"Don't want an Escort"
Click to expand...


Flew my BD-4 through the DC SFRA many times - never had any trouble.
 
I think the CFI is wrong...

humptybump said:
Dear "Bored in the Tower",

I recently had a discussion with a local flight instructor who told me in no uncertain terms that I'd be crazy to consider filing and getting access into the DC SFRA in my RV-8. He suggested that flying an amateur home built aircraft was all but not permitted and my odds of getting violated were almost 100%.

Is it safer to file and fly the SFRA in a certified aircraft? Is it unadvisable to file and fly the SFRA asa VFR only pilot&plane? I've already taken, passed, and put the necessary documents into the aircraft.

sincerely,
"Don't want an Escort"
Click to expand...

I've been into and out of the SFRA many times now in my -6, all VFR, and I've seen plenty of other experimentals on the ramp at HEF and JYO, and heard them on the radio. I don't think certified vs. experimental matters one iota here -- just file, talk, and never squawk 1200 -- i.e. follow the rules -- and you'll be fine.

-jon
 
Forane, it sounds as though you won't be with the departure controller long so as soon as you get a second, after he radar identifies you, just advise him that a future handoff won't be necessary.
 
tkatc said:
Forane, it sounds as though you won't be with the departure controller long so as soon as you get a second, after he radar identifies you, just advise him that a future handoff won't be necessary.
Click to expand...

Thanks again for the feedback. This sort of thing is very helpful. Many times we as pilots are not even aware of some of the nuances that seem to irk controllers.

When I fly into a larger unfamiliar field I need to stop and get my bearings (after exiting the runway) so I don't inadvertently taxi somewhere I don't belong yet sometimes I have had controllers speak to me in a harsh manner for stopping. Should I just ask for progressive?

How about Pireps? Do you prefer we call a FSS or mind if we give one to approach control if not overloaded?
 
After exiting the runway you SHOULD stop unless you have further instructions. If you suspected a harsh tone, perhaps there was someone else trying to exit the runway on the same taxiway you were blocking?

As for PIREPS, controllers are lazy, they would prefer not to relay routine PIREPS to the FSS. So give the PIREPS directly to the FSS. Now, with that being said, I personally acquire a mental picture of the kind of weather in my airspace, and that is done by asking pilots questions or getting PIREPS. How can I assist pilots if I don't have that mental picture? Also, controllers are required to obtain PIREPS when certain weather conditions are prevalent. Bottom line is, pass me a PIREP that will help me do my job and I will do the same for you. I would rather not hear the OAT is 65 with a light headwind. :rolleyes:
 
On the subject of the departure and terrain separation one of the things that I have used even in part 121 operations is to request a VFR climb on course on initial contact. It relieves the controller of the requirement for terrain clearance on a IFR departure. Some airports it works very well and can allow you to turn earlier on a direct course. It goes without saying however that you need both the visibility and performance to remain clear of all terrain.

George
 
tkatc said:
After exiting the runway you SHOULD stop unless you have further instructions. If you suspected a harsh tone, perhaps there was someone else trying to exit the runway on the same taxiway you were blocking?....
Click to expand...

It was the rule (do not enter the taxi way from the runway without ground clearance when exiting the runway) at KSUS for years until someone noticed the exit taxi way stubs were too short, it was impossible to be clear of the runway holding short of the parallel taxi way. Guys used to get chewed out for entering the taxi way without a clearance, no more.

One day recently, 4 of us drove out to the taxi way and called ground on a hand held and got the matter resolved. When exiting the runway, we are expected to enter the taxi way so as to be cleared of the runway.

That still leaves unresolved any conflict with traffic on the taxi way. But at least the runway is clear for arriving and departing traffic.

Yea, I know, this isn't a question.....:)
 
tkatc said:
After exiting the runway you SHOULD stop unless you have further instructions. If you suspected a harsh tone, perhaps there was someone else trying to exit the runway on the same taxiway you were blocking?
Click to expand...

Oh, sorry, I should have made myself more clear. I am referring to a couple of instances after obtaining taxi instructions, writing them down, & reading them back. At those times I would stay clear of runway short of taxiway stopped as I build a better idea of where I am supposed to go without inadvertently blundering where I am not supposed to go. Neither time was I blocking other traffic. One time the controller really seemed more helpful but seemed to want me to move. The other time the controller was harsh saying "can you move! I issued you a taxi instruction..."

How about you? Is there anything that we pilots frequently screw up that you wish we knew?
 
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FORANE said:
Oh, sorry, I should have made myself more clear. I am referring to a couple of instances after obtaining taxi instructions, writing them down, & reading them back. At those times I would stay clear of runway short of taxiway stopped as I build a better idea of where I am supposed to go without inadvertently blundering where I am not supposed to go. Neither time was I blocking other traffic. One time the controller really seemed more helpful but seemed to want me to move. The other time the controller was harsh saying "can you move! I issued you a taxi instruction..."

How about you? Is there anything that we pilots frequently screw up that you wish we knew?
Click to expand...


Here is a great ATC tape from JFK ground. Sometimes waiting to taxi there is more fun then a comedy show.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyO-bWGxWBU
 
There are things pilots do that annoy the "non-pilot" controller. I tend to be a little more tolerant of inexperience because I am a pilot. I can usually "communicate" better with inexperienced pilots because I understand what they want and what they are doing. Other controllers find the lower time or rusty pilots annoying.

If I had to name 1 thing for pilots to be better at it would be airspace classes and requirements for each. For example, I work a class Charlie. I have identified aircraft by issuing a squawk code and then the pilot asks if he is "cleared" through the Charlie. The is no requirement to be "cleared". Establishing communications is essentially granting permission into the airspace. Now, aircraft departing class Charlie DOES need a VFR clearance and should acquire that prior to calling for taxi. I know it sounds tricky but it's pretty simple stuff really. Knowing the airspace classes and requirements will open up more options for you as well as keeping the controller a bit happier.
 
I can see the humor in that video but it's also a bit distressing. You can see if just one thing goes astray the entire plan can come undone. :(

That is obviously a seasoned controller who is having a bad day. It happens. Hopefully not a lot. :D
 
I run XM weather now because I almost killed myself once flying into an embedded thunderstorm...
I have had some controllers call me when they learned I had XM and ask me where the XM radar looked worst. Do I really have better weather radar than is available in some of the towers?
 
Depending on the facility, YES, your weather may be better. You also have a better vantage point because you can SEE what's out there as well. Many facilities only show precipitation but not cells so they are a bit "blind" in that regard. I know that we pull up our favorite wx site on the Internet to aid in compiling the "big picture" during times of inclement wx.
 
FORANE said:
I run XM weather now because I almost killed myself once flying into an embedded thunderstorm...
I have had some controllers call me when they learned I had XM and ask me where the XM radar looked worst. Do I really have better weather radar than is available in some of the towers?
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You certainly have a better big picture view then onboard aircraft radar. I really wish I had XM at work. XM combined with onboard radar would be my dream for weather avoidance.

George
 
you just did :)

But here is one that came up on a recent EAA webinar.

The presenter said that controllers prefer "wilco" rather than "roger". and then went on to say they are very different replies. "wilco" = will comply; and "roger" = "I received the instructions".

Do most controllers make the distinction and/or do they treat pilots who use "wilco" better/different than those who use "roger" ?
 
humptybump said:
you just did :)
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I thought that very same thing as I saw it in type! :)

"Roger" only means they heard the last transmission. Nothing more. I cringe when I ask a pilot to verify something, for example, "Verify level at 2500?" and the reply comes back "Roger". Does that mean "Affirmative"? "Negative"? I usually ask again even though I assume the pilot means "Yes". Sometimes I actually insist on an "Affirmative" reply.

"Wilco" on the other hand MEANS something. It means you have heard the transmission/instruction and will comply with that instruction. Pretty simple stuff but I think many pilots who are not well verse in ATC language are intimidated and either lack knowledge/experience or are too nervous to reply properly.
 
Thanks for the clarification.

To be honest, I was *TAUGHT* to say "roger" by a series of flight instructors as I progressed through PPL, Instrument, etc. I guess they all came from the same gene pool.
 
David-aviator said:
It was the rule (do not enter the taxi way from the runway without ground clearance when exiting the runway) at KSUS for years until someone noticed the exit taxi way stubs were too short, it was impossible to be clear of the runway holding short of the parallel taxi way.
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Ditto on this....I've had more than one "discussion" with the ground controllers at Scottsdale (KSDL), Arizona, because when you exit the runway with anything bigger than a C-150 you are going to be sitting well on the parallel taxiway if you are going to get the tail of the aircraft past the runway hold short markings. You are either going to irritate the ground controller by entering his/her taxiway or cause the local controller a separation error by sitting on the runway. It's pretty obvious so I don't know why this continues to be a problem at this airport, especially when large business jets routinely operate out of the airport.

As long as such pet-peeves are being voiced, I am increasingly irritated by approach controllers who insist on providing VFR aircraft altitude separation and/or vectors to avoid other VFR aircraft, this being outside of Class B or Class C airspace. Please just issue me the traffic and a traffic alert if it comes to that. Suggest an altitude or a heading if it makes you feel better but please don't assign hard altitudes to VFR aircraft for VFR separation. As per the Air Traffic Manual and/or AIM for Class D and Class E airspace: "No separation services are provided to VFR aircraft" (except maybe by overcontrollers). My two cents, and this from an ex-controller.
 
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