Buying an RV and need some advice

Hi all,
I'm new to the VAF website, and am looking forward to getting involved. I am looking at buying an RV (probably an RV-7) and really don't know where to start. I've found an airplane that looks good in the ad, but what questions do I ask next? Also, any advice on where to look for insurance and loans? Thanks for the help!

Malibu

some things to ask:

who built it, have they built before? what kind of a kit was it built from (matched hole- lesser chance for errors but still possible to put twists in some of the control edges)

accident history if any. times on airframe, engine, prop

usage- some thing that is flown 3-5 times a month should have an engine in better condition than one that sits for 3-4 months at a time. Also a better battery. just a general guideline.

if you live near the coast i'd want some corrosion protection, some kind of priming. hopefully something better than basic rattle can. If you are inland it probably doesn't matter at all.

types of trim?

avionics?

other people that have flown it, how much fuel does it use at certain speeds, etc.

Welcome to VAF!!!!

Malibu said:

Hi all,
I'm new to the VAF website, and am looking forward to getting involved. I am looking at buying an RV (probably an RV-7) and really don't know where to start. I've found an airplane that looks good in the ad, but what questions do I ask next? Also, any advice on where to look for insurance and loans? Thanks for the help!

Malibu

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David, WELCOME!!

You have come to the right place for RV info.

I have a good buddy in your area with a 7, I am sure he will be willing to give you a ride, and offer assistance with any questions you have. He is a member here on VAF, I will have him contact you.

Good to have you aboard.

Thanks

Thanks for the info.

Mike,
I'd love to meet up with your buddy and pick his brain a bit.

Thanks again,
Dave

What is the best way to check out engine logs? I know this is important, but what should I look for? How do you get to check the logs without physically seeing them? Do you have to trust the person until you do a pre-buy? What are the considerations with engine size (160, 180, 200 hp) and 2 vs 3 bladed props on an RV-7?

Malibu said:

Hi all,
I'm new to the VAF website, and am looking forward to getting involved. I am looking at buying an RV (probably an RV-7) and really don't know where to start. I've found an airplane that looks good in the ad, but what questions do I ask next? Also, any advice on where to look for insurance and loans? Thanks for the help!

Malibu

Click to expand...

This is a buyers market so a good time to purchase. The only way to purchase any airplane is to settle on the price before you go to look. Once you look if it is better than expected then the price is set. If it needs some minor work then the price is still negotiable. If it is not what you expected then you are free to walk away. Settling on the price always has the caveat of being able to walk if it is not what you expected. No earnest money until you have seen the plane and decided it is the one. If someone else gets it before you do it is no big deal.

Next and more important than the price is to find someone that you trust to do a pre-buy inspection that is familiar with RVs and good workmanship. Not all guys that have built are familiar enough to do a pre-buy inspection. I built and I would not think of doing one! There are guys like Jay Pratt in Dallas and Mel Asberry (DAR) that have considerable experience building and inspecting other people's work. The EAA has listed http://www.sportpilot.org/resources/dar.html DARs that will come out to inspect finished planes. They may (or may not) be willing to go with you to look at the workmanship for a pre-buy. They will charge money that is WELL SPENT!

This is one time where "The agony of poor quality (read: a poor inspection) will linger LONG after the sweetness of cheap price has worn off!" Do not get a friend or self professed expert to look at the plane. Pay a professional. Even with that a few things will come up that are missed. The operative word is "few." You do not want to end up like a friend of mine. He purchased a plane in a Southwestern state that was "highly recommended" and built by a "multiple builder" that turned out to be the first plane for that builder.

My friend, with the help of several really good builders here in Houston, took the plane to quick build stage and essentially rebuilt it. It has taken about 18 months to do the re-build and a fair amount of cash. It is now a SAFE and well built plane.

So a good plan would be to:

1. Find a DAR or other person that is a perfectionist and VERY familiar with RVs who will go with you (at your expense) to look at the prospective plane. Do this BEFORE you start looking at planes.

2. Settle on price before you go and ask for as many pictures as you feel you need before you go. In this market do not be afraid to "low ball." (Sorry guys, It's business ) In the history of selling planes almost every asking price is negotiable. In this market all are negotiable if the person really is interested in selling.

For financing you will need to use your search skills. I did a Google for "aircraft financing" and came up with three possibilities but don't know if they do "experimental" or not. AOPA finances (experimental?) and possibly the EAA has a financing service.

Engine and prop

Opinion follows:

Only 180 HP or better. Constant speed prop offers significant performance improvements over a fixed pitch prop. Three blade prop may be smoother than a two blade but is less a factor than constant speed/fixed pitch.

Good plane vs. Show plane

gvgoff99 said:

So a good plan would be to:

1. Find a DAR or other person that is a perfectionist and VERY familiar with RVs who will go with you (at your expense) to look at the prospective plane. Do this BEFORE you start looking at planes.

2. Settle on price before you go and ask for as many pictures as you feel you need before you go. In this market do not be afraid to "low ball." (Sorry guys, It's business ) In the history of selling planes almost every asking price is negotiable. In this market all are negotiable if the person really is interested in selling.

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George,

I have to take exception to some of your comments. I eliminated much of your post to keep it short. You mentioned through inference that you should avoid a "first build." Far more of the planes are "first builds." Why should they be of lesser consideration than others? There are many first builds I'd love to own. My plane is a first build and has won several awards. I will be selling it later this year. I hope people don't avoid it

The overall perception of your post is that nothing less than a show plane should be considered. I've got news, you're not going to find the perfect plane. If you come close you'll pay dearly for it, buyers market or not. Your search could bypass some extremely viable aircraft if perfection is demanded.

The inspection should be done by someone who has built RV's and is very familiar. That includes the DAR.

I have no clue how you could settle on price before you go. You could have a price in your mind that you'd pay but without seeing and evaluating, I don't know how you "settle" on a price. I see no problem with asking what the bottom line is.

A thorough inspection by a qualified person of a plane in your price range, followed by a price negotiation is what will get you a great plane.

There are many excellent RV's out there. There are very few perfect ones.

Malibu said:

Hi all,
I'm new to the VAF website, and am looking forward to getting involved. I am looking at buying an RV (probably an RV-7) and really don't know where to start. I've found an airplane that looks good in the ad, but what questions do I ask next? Also, any advice on where to look for insurance and loans? Thanks for the help!

Malibu

Click to expand...

Send a check to Van's for a quick built. You'll never regret it and there's no greater sense of satisfaction than flying an airplane you assembled with your own hands.

P.S. This might be more helpful. Try contacting Oly Olson, retired F-16 driver, at
[email protected].
He has bought several used experimental airplanes including 2 RV's.

RV7Guy said:

George,

I have to take exception to some of your comments. I eliminated much of your post to keep it short. You mentioned through inference that you should avoid a "first build." Far more of the planes are "first builds." Why should they be of lesser consideration than others? There are many first builds I'd love to own. My plane is a first build and has won several awards. I will be selling it later this year. I hope people don't avoid it

The overall perception of your post is that nothing less than a show plane should be considered. I've got news, you're not going to find the perfect plane. If you come close you'll pay dearly for it, buyers market or not. Your search could bypass some extremely viable aircraft if perfection is demanded.

The inspection should be done by someone who has built RV's and is very familiar. That includes the DAR.

I have no clue how you could settle on price before you go. You could have a price in your mind that you'd pay but without seeing and evaluating, I don't know how you "settle" on a price. I see no problem with asking what the bottom line is.

A thorough inspection by a qualified person of a plane in your price range, followed by a price negotiation is what will get you a great plane.

There are many excellent RV's out there. There are very few perfect ones.

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Darwin, You are reading something into my post that is not there. I did not eliminate "first builds." I did mention that a friend got a lemon from a "multiple builder." That lemon happened to be a "first build." That is not a condemnation of all "first builds." Mine is a first build and I hope to sell it some day but I would give any prospective buyer the same advice as I wrote above.

Still, even if a plane has won awards, I would not advise purchasing it without getting someone that is knowledgeable and impartial to thoroughly inspect it. My advice was to find that person before looking for a plane. That person needs to be impartial and not affiliated with the plane in any way; they need to impartially advise when "good" is "good enough." AOPA STRONGLY advises a pre-purchase inspection of any plane, spam can or experimental.

As for the price, I believe it is a good idea to do a lot of the negotiation prior to arriving at the plane. It keeps the process in a business like setting and greatly reduces the emotion of ?falling in love? with the plane before you start the negotiation. It also lets you know if the seller is willing to negotiate.

I left open that it is still possible to negotiate after seeing the plane even if you have arrived with a price that you probably would be willing to pay if the plane is as advertised. When you see the plane, presumably, you are going to pay a price arrived at in a business like fashion. If the plane is a good plane (not a "show plane") but not quite as cream puff as expected there is still the possibility for negotiation.

You are reading in that I am pushing for a show plane. The advice I gave is to let someone else decide when "good" is "good enough" and do a lot of the negotiation before going to see the plane. I stand by my advice. It's business.

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Seb Trost

Ron Lee said:

Opinion follows:

Only 180 HP or better. Constant speed prop offers significant performance improvements over a fixed pitch prop. Three blade prop may be smoother than a two blade but is less a factor than constant speed/fixed pitch.

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Opinion: I agree with the above advice. I have a O-320 and really wish I had the O-360 with CS.

What about costs?

Thanks for all the replies. I can see this site will be a wealth of knowledge. With that in mind, the next thing I'm clueless about is associated costs. It seems that most of the engines are a 2000 TBO, and I've heard that this can range from $5 - 25k. How about interim maintenance costs? Annuals, oil changes, random issues? Since I haven't built the aircraft, I can't do the oil changes myself correct? Any suggestions about how much to set aside per month, or per hour to cover all of these random things? I guess an easier way to ask is, on average, how much should I put aside for each hour or month to cover any unexpected costs I'm not considering. My thoughts are that the following are costs I will incour, but what else am I missing? Insurance, storage, annuals, oil changes, random mx, TBO.

Maintenance of an experimental

Malibu said:

Thanks for all the replies. I can see this site will be a wealth of knowledge. With that in mind, the next thing I'm clueless about is associated costs. It seems that most of the engines are a 2000 TBO, and I've heard that this can range from $5 - 25k. How about interim maintenance costs? Annuals, oil changes, random issues? Since I haven't built the aircraft, I can't do the oil changes myself correct? Any suggestions about how much to set aside per month, or per hour to cover all of these random things? I guess an easier way to ask is, on average, how much should I put aside for each hour or month to cover any unexpected costs I'm not considering. My thoughts are that the following are costs I will incour, but what else am I missing? Insurance, storage, annuals, oil changes, random mx, TBO.

Click to expand...

You can legally do all work (maintenance, repairs, modifications, etc.) to an E-AB airplane you purchase. The only thing you can't do is the annual Condition Inspection. You will need to find someone with an A&P or the holder of the Repairman's Certificate for that airplane to do the Condition Inspection. Join the EAA and your local chapter to find an A&P and other builders to help you when needed.

Again, if you haven't joined the EAA, there is a wealth of information there. See this FAQ on maintenance: http://members.eaa.org/home/homebuilders/faq/Non-builder Maintenance.html#TopOfPage

"I am going to buy a used homebuilt, what work can I perform myself?

FAR Part 43 specifically states that the rules of that part do not apply to experimental, amateur-built aircraft. Therefore, any work (not just maintenance) on an experimental aircraft can be performed virtually by anyone regardless of credentials. (This does not apply to the condition inspection). Let common sense be your guide as to what maintenance you conduct yourself."

Don is correct!
But also you mentioned TBO. There is no regulatory requirement to overhaul at TBO for part 91 aircraft. TBO is simply a "recommended" time between overhauls. If an engine is cared for and flown regularly, it can go far beyond TBO. I've seen Lycomings go beyond 3000 hours without problems. It's not at all uncommon to see them go beyond 2500. As long as the compression is good and oil burn is satisfactory, you can continue to fly.

Malibu said:

....., on average, how much should I put aside for each hour or month to cover any unexpected costs I'm not considering. My thoughts are that the following are costs I will incour, but what else am I missing? Insurance, storage, annuals, oil changes, random mx, TBO.

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David, since most experimental flyers fly around 100 hours or so, per year, on my -10 the insurance is $2,700 so $27/hr for insurance (yours should be under $2,000), 14 GPH @$4.00= $56/Hr and overhaul will run $20,000 (I think), so $10/Hr for overhauls (on a 2000 hr engine) and and $2,000 or so for tires, oil and misc+ = $20

Total is around $113/hr not including hangar fees but you get the idea of how to convert expenses to an hourly figure.

Best,

Savvy Aviator

Mel has given you excellent advice as has Pierre and the others posting here.
Also you will find that there are several on line places to find the answers to a lot of your questions and I am pretty sure after I post this others will mention sites they like. I find Mike Busch to be a pretty sharp fellow and cutting edge on maintenance. You will find a lot of info from his site "The Savvy Aviator": http://www.avweb.com/news/savvyaviator/

If you Google Mike

............. it's Mike Busch.

Tailwheel vs. Tricycle?

Tailwheel vs Tricycle gear? Inputs/concerns.....what about resale?

Malibu said:

Tailwheel vs Tricycle gear? Inputs/concerns.....what about resale?

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Captain, time for you to try out the search function. There is a ton of info on this if you do a search. Also in the never-ending debate section on the front page. Bottom Line: Personal preference!

fair enough

LOL, I guess I'm not the first to ask these questions huh??!! Still, thanks for the post!

Prior to doing any maintenance, contact someone locally who can show you how to whatever task you are about to undertake.

Even doing something as simple as changing the oil is different than doing it in your car. For example, warm the oil (one trip around the patch will be good), drain the oil into a clean bucket, stir with a magnet on a stick to check for metal partials, replace filter (or clean the screen, depends on which engine you have), inspect the filter, oil the filter seal and torque it, if you have an oil plug, replace the gasket and re-torque, fill with oil, test run & inspect for leaks, cowl up and go fly. That is the short version - it should give you an idea.

The more maintenance you do, the more $$$ you will save for fuel and $100 BBQ lunches.

When looking for a plane, ask to see all the logs and get a copy of the electrical system?s schematic. Without that, I wouldn?t even think about it.

The engine size & prop are open for discussion. I know of one guy who bought a 150 hp RV-8 and loves the feel of it. Said it flies almost like an RV-4 because it is so light. Others argue that the only way to go is the biggest engine with a three bladed constant speed prop. It all comes down to personal preference.

Some people will pay high dollar for an engine built one of the big name engine shops. The question that no one has been able to answer for me is, after 100, 200, 500, 1000, 1500, 2000 hours does this really matter? Obviously, you will more for the large engine, even though the acquisition costs are almost the same (when buying new) but if it is a high time engine, the price comes back down. High time is defined as both Total Time (TT) and Time Since Major Overhaul. (TSMO).

Take a look at the empty weight vs. stated gross weight. Van?s lists the GW for a -7 as 1800 lbs, some people inflate that number. You have to decide what is acceptable; none, 1850, 1900, etc.

Figure out what your mission is. If you are just looking for some local flights or long distance flights with no schedule; do you really need an IFR ship? You can save yourself some money by buying the right ship for you. You can always upgrade later on. (I have some friends who sold their Glasair and bought a Starduster only to replace that with and even slower Cabin WACO. They are retired and are not in any hurry, so going VFR and getting stuck at some out of the way airport in the WACO is part of the adventure.)

Hi Malibu,

You've definitely come to the right place for advice.

I started a similar thread while shopping for the RV6 I just acquired.

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=35438&highlight=THInking+buying

In hindsight I would say the best two pieces of advice I was given were;

1] Purchase the best and most well constructed airframe you can find. You can change the rest.

2] Get the O-360 engine."You'll burn just as much fuel as the O320 and it's bullet proof"