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anti ice / de-ice

Wayne

Well Known Member
Ran into some moderate rime ice the other day that had me very concerned. My RV 10 wings, windshield prop & most likely tail feathers had about 1/2 - 3/4 inch on it. I requested and was cleared higher but the -10 struggled to climb to 13,000. The plane handled like it was in slow flight and once i came out of the cloud it seems like it took forever to shed the ice. Matter a fact when i landed an hour later i got slush balls splashing into the windshield off the cowl.

I know that flying IFR ( i am low time IFR) you will run into ice despite your best planning so my question is.....

is there any after market de ice or anti-ice systems that can be installed on the RV10?

Anybody done it and care to comment?
 
Wrong Question

"I know that flying IFR ( i am low time IFR) you will run into ice despite your best planning so my question is.....

is there any after market de ice or anti-ice systems that can be installed on the RV10?"

Instead of equipment, my opinion is that you need to focus on strategies to avoid icing and, if you do encounter it, strategies to get out of it and NOT PRESS ON. Your decision making on the flight you describe is more than troublesome. Continuing on and hoping you can climb out on top before you stall, lose control, or become overloaded is reckless at best. You were lucky, and luck is not a strategy. Please get with a well qualified instrument instructor and debrief your flight with him. I'm pretty sure his suggestion won't be to try to add equipment that will help get you deeper into trouble. he should however be able to help you with your ADM. Sorry if my comments seem harsh- my hope is that you eventually become a "high time" instrument pilot.
Terry, CFI
RV9A N323TP
 
The rest of the story....

"I know that flying IFR ( i am low time IFR) you will run into ice despite your best planning so my question is.....

is there any after market de ice or anti-ice systems that can be installed on the RV10?"

Instead of equipment, my opinion is that you need to focus on strategies to avoid icing and, if you do encounter it, strategies to get out of it and NOT PRESS ON. Your decision making on the flight you describe is more than troublesome. Continuing on and hoping you can climb out on top before you stall, lose control, or become overloaded is reckless at best. You were lucky, and luck is not a strategy. Please get with a well qualified instrument instructor and debrief your flight with him. I'm pretty sure his suggestion won't be to try to add equipment that will help get you deeper into trouble. he should however be able to help you with your ADM. Sorry if my comments seem harsh- my hope is that you eventually become a "high time" instrument pilot.
Terry, CFI
RV9A N323TP

Thanks for the comments. I agree totally stay out of ice Stratagy
The rest of the story is:
- I received a detailed in depth briefing before filing IFR in which there was no icing forecasted
- I was shocked on how quickly the ice accumulated & had no desire to do a 180 & go through it again.
- I was in actual IMC over the mountains in Montana where there is no radar coverage which took away my go lower options.
- I did get debriefings from two respected IFR instructors and they both said I did act appropriately & they couldn't think of any others suggestions on how they would have handled it differently.
- the reason I'm looking at a deice option is in case I inadvertently get in ice again. I do not wish to nor plan to fly in any type of icing situation!!
 
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Ran into some moderate rime ice the other day that had me very concerned. My RV 10 wings, windshield prop & most likely tail feathers had about 1/2 - 3/4 inch on it. I requested and was cleared higher but the -10 struggled to climb to 13,000. The plane handled like it was in slow flight and once i came out of the cloud it seems like it took forever to shed the ice. Matter a fact when i landed an hour later i got slush balls splashing into the windshield off the cowl.

I know that flying IFR ( i am low time IFR) you will run into ice despite your best planning so my question is.....

is there any after market de ice or anti-ice systems that can be installed on the RV10?

Anybody done it and care to comment?




I dunno if you've heard about the new de-ice system equipment which is Therm-X. This consists of graphite foil laminate.
 
My biggest concern with adopting a roll your own or off-the-shelf anti-ice/de-ice system for an E-AB is understanding not only how to adapt it to a given airframe but the operating capabilities/limitations and associated effects. It's one thing to take a certified system like a Hartzell prop that is setup up for anti-ice and adapting it to a given E-AB aircraft. It 's something entirely different when you start talking wings and emp and I'm not talking systems for full-blown FIKI. For example, how would you test to determine effectiveness of a given system and the aerodynamic performance/issues for different OATs, icing types, and accumulations for a given airframe?
 
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If you are curious talk to RDD in Redmond Oregon.

http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=main.textpost&id=7eda0976-f838-47d9-b93b-2dc7a5a4f38c

I have around 1200 hours on my RV-10 and fly it IFR in the North West. I have also flown the Turbo charged RV-10 that RDD installed the heated wings on. My advice would be if you need to actually fly IFR when it is near freezing you should get a Turbo FIKI Cirrus.

I have had 4 significant encounters with ice in my RV-10, all within the first few years of having my instrument rating. I have gotten a lot smarter and more careful in the last 5 years.

Things I wish I had learned when I first got my instrument rating:

1. If it is below freezing and you are in the clouds you are going to pick up ice.

2. If it is -20F and you go into a cloud you are going to pick up ice.

3. Don't file the MEA if there is any chance you could get ice , if you start to pick up ice it limits your options.

4. Ice build up is usually worse in the top of the clouds.

5. You can get ice in the summer, see rule 1

6. Don't be afraid to tell ATC that you are picking up ice.

7. Always have a way out: descend to warmer air, do a 180 before it gets worse.

Rob Hickman
N402RH RV-10
 
7. Always have a way out: descend to warmer air, do a 180 before it gets worse.

Rob Hickman
N402RH RV-10

Other possible options are a lateral deviation (particularly to VMC) or climbing if you can - sometimes ice is under an inversion so warmer air might be above you. The key is to react (regardless of the option you choose) and communicate with ATC at the first signs --don't wait!
 
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Of course, Rob's rule #1 and, especially, #2, are not true, which is exactly the problem; pilots get lulled into complacency. You need to follow rule #7 religiously, at the first sign of trouble. Too many wait until it's too late.
 
Of course, Rob's rule #1 and, especially, #2, are not true, which is exactly the problem; pilots get lulled into complacency. You need to follow rule #7 religiously, at the first sign of trouble. Too many wait until it's too late.

My experience flying the RV-10 IFR in the Pacific Northwest is that I have never had the RV-10 not pick up some ice in a cloud when the temp was below freezing.



Rob Hickman
N402RH RV-10
 
My experience flying the RV-10 IFR in the Pacific Northwest is that I have never had the RV-10 not pick up some ice in a cloud when the temp was below freezing.



Rob Hickman
N402RH RV-10

Well, the NW does have a bad reputation for ice. I don't think I've ever encountered ice at -20 F. And I've done approaches starting at 20F and ending at 40F without seeing ice. I recall once departing out of eastern OR picking up some ice during the climb, while another 182, 15 minutes behind me, picked up none. It's the hit and miss that makes it so tough to forecast. And, as I said, it can lull pilots into thinking that they'll never encounter icing. But, again, the real problem is usually delaying action. Or putting yourself in a box where there is no way out.
 
Wayne, thanks for posting this. I don't have an answer to your question. I started my IFR, passed the written and was half way through the flight training when I came to the same conclusion as Rob - I really needed a FIKI Cirrus to fly IFR (in the mountains, where I live) within my risk tolerance.

Seeing as I can't afford such an airplane I decided to shelve the IFR, and have been second guessing that decision ever since. Reading your post gave me shivers, and I could easily imagine myself in such a situation - where none of us really want to be. This helps me live with the call I made.
 
Icing

Hi Wayne. I'm a professional weatherman so I'm not going to preach to you. Very simple rule when flying airplanes with no de-icing equipment. No where the Freezing Level is at all times, if you're not a 100% sure then don't go in to clouds. Weather is never a perfect science so gambling on it is dangerous business. Stay safe my friend.
 
I've had a number of ice encounters with my -6A and was fortunate to have two experiences where I could do some in-flight testing with a bit of ice on it after exiting the clouds and cancelling IFR well above terrain. I'm reluctant to share the data I gathered since it'd likely result in some unpleasant discussions as things are wont to do on here lately.

34330309763_a54807080c_z.jpg

Anyways, know where the freezing level is, where tops are, and where the source of moisture is coming from. If the air mass is coming down from up north as is common in MN winters, the moisture is already frozen and so no ice. Conversely, autumn often sees cold temps but moist air coming from the south - liquid moisture, to be precise, which loves to stick to things when the temps get below freezing.

As one friend points out, "Ice belongs in drinks, not on wings". Words to live by.
 
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Anyways, know where the freezing level is, where tops are, and where the source of moisture is coming from. If the air mass is coming down from up north as is common in MN winters, the moisture is already frozen and so no ice. Conversely, autumn often sees cold temps but moist air coming from the south - liquid moisture, to be precise, which loves to stick to things when the temps get below freezing.

As one friend points out, "Ice belongs in drinks, not on wings". Words to live by.

This is where a SKEW-T can be very helpful if you can learn to read the darn things.
 
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